Another London Bombing

[DKM Jaguar 0]

The threat of terrorism is greater than ever in london and all people want to do is condemn the police and tie their hands behind their back.... funny how quickly people forget who they ran towards for help on 7th july...

They shouted, he ran.

[sanctuary 19]

The threat of terrorism is greater than ever in london and all people want to do is condemn the police and tie their hands behind their back.... funny how quickly people forget who they ran towards for help on 7th july...

They shouted, he ran.

That's exactly the same in 1995 after the lots of terrorist bombing in France , the EPIGN shot Khaled Kelkal in 1995 at Lyon.

Lots of people condemned the action of the EPIGN.

People want terrorist threat to be eliminated, by when it happens in public they condamn first.

Talk about some kind of hypocrisy.

They just want that counter terrorism action to happen when they don't hear about it, that's easier to justify it in their mind ....

I just hope in the London case that the shot guy was a terrorist.

[Rikki Tikki Tavi 0]

Makes sense to me. The guy is wearing large bulky jacket, they shout, he runs into crowded train, and that would have resulted in high number of casualties if he'd have been a bomber. Shooting seems like the smart thing to me.  

[-Ash- 0]

You fight fire with fire.. It's the only way to stop these cowards...

[ralphwiggum 6]

in case people forgot, anything other than discussion of news will be met with PR.

[Pathy 0]

Well as someone pointed out, witnesses tend to be very unreliable. The police will know EXACTLY how many shots were fired into this guy through either the ammount of bullets left in the gun, the ammount of casings, and of course the bullets in the body.

Maybe we will get that information, who knows. But if they thought they were dealing with a suicide bomber, better to make sure hes dead than not.

As far as im concerned, let them get on with it, its not like they are shooting indiscriminately.

[Garcia 0]

One eyewitness said he was shot 5 times, another said he heard three shots, another 4 , another 6. Eyewitnesses can be very unreliable about this kind of thing.

Basically the guy was shot anywhere between 3-6 times by plainclothes 'officers' at close range. There is some talk that the guy may have been identified (perhaps from CCTV from yesterdays quasi-attacks), but according to witnesses he

certainly ran past people and jumped over the ticket gates at the entrance of the platform, was -presumably- told to stop and had people chasing him at which point he entered the train, may have tripped, been bundled down or otherwise ended up on the floor at which point he was shot multiple times in the body/chest.

He was of asian appearance (for what thats worth) and had 'bulky' clothing.

Thats what i can gather from the eyewitnesses ive heard, (i am only presuming he was as some point ordered to stop, i dont recall anyone mentioning it). The police have confirmed shooting a man at Stockwell station.

There was a police cordon put around a mosque after the shooting but that has since been lifted.

This should really be in WOT thread.

Every statement from eyewitnesses I've heard was that they shot him 5 times. And I doubt they shot him in the chest, as that would be the most stupid thing they could do...the guy had a big winter jacket or something on him, which was the only place he could have had a bomb. The only reason for the police to shoot him like that they thought he had a bomb under his jacket, and they would most likely not shoot at his chest cause of that

And the London police was ordered to shoot to kill if they though someone had a bomb...and I think it's pretty clear that this guy was gonna do something bad. Why would be walk in suck clothes and run from the police if he didn't have any bomb on him?

[Gollum1 0]

Especially police officers aren't trained to shoot to wound or threaten, they shoot to neutralize the threat. If you're going to neutralize the threat of a suicide bomber it would be best to empy a mag into him at close range. That's assuming he was one, of course, but how many times they shot him is completely irrelevant, you don't shoot to wound.

But I'm convinced everyone here would have put a well-aimed round into his head so as not to be criticized on an Internet forum.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Real smart. Don't they won't to solve the case instead of killing it?

Well public safety + he was a supsected bomber.

From what i have read and heard British armed police use subsonic ammunition (that the right term?) which go slower than usual ammunition so it would be wise to put a few more rounds downrange just incase. Also the officer who shot him will be charged with manslaughter and will have to prove what action he took was justified.

[Pathy 0]

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

Quote[/b] ]

Another passenger on the train, Anthony Larkin, told BBC News the man had been wearing a "bomb belt with wires coming out".

"I've seen these police officers shouting, 'Get down, get down!', and I've seen this guy who appears to have a bomb belt and wires coming out.

"People were panicking and I heard shots being fired."

Other quotes on that page highlight the inconsistancy of the number of shots:

Quote[/b] ]"As I turned out the door onto the platform, I heard four dull bangs.

[bn880 5]

Isn't it time to stick this all into the WOT? Or Iraq war or something? Or are we going to have a thread for every English or US attack but none of the others?

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Isn't it time to stick this all into the WOT? Or Iraq war or something?  Or are we going to have a thread for every English or US attack but none of the others?  

Why not put that in ask the mod thread? This thread is for discussion of the news that is comming from London, your post is not of that nature.

But good job at having a dig at the events or suggesting some sort of inequality because we have a seperate thread, Please troll somehwere else.

[Pathy 0]

Not just me who thought that about his post then

[hellfish6 7]

This thread is for discussion of the news and event - not debate. If you wanna debate or hypthosize, do it in the War on Terror thread.

Simply relate first hand accounts or news stories here and keep the commentary to a minimum. This thread will remain open as long as it's relevant and on topic.

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]Also the officer who shot him will be charged with manslaughter and will have to prove what action he took was justified.

Will he? What I've heard was that the police was ordered to shoot to kill suspected bombers...so, obviously the police suspected him to be a bomber, and he did what he was ordered to Or are the norwegian news just writing loads of crap again?

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Quote[/b] ]Also the officer who shot him will be charged with manslaughter and will have to prove what action he took was justified.

Will he? What I've heard was that the police was ordered to shoot to kill suspected bombers...so, obviously the police suspected him to be a bomber, and he did what he was ordered to Or are the norwegian news just writing loads of crap again?

Well he may have been ordered to shoot if the threat was high say he was going for the detonate or a weapon but his first order is to arrest and apprihend and only use force as a last resort, from my limited knowledge of these he will be charged with manslaughter at a later time, usually those trials are fairly quick (compared to other manslaughter trials) in order to get him back on the streets or off depending on the trial.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Garcia he may not have even been SO19 or any other armed part of the Met

Quote[/b] ] Muslim group has said it is concerned there is a new police "shoot to kill" policy in the UK following the shooting dead of a man in south London.

The Muslim Council of Britain said it was getting calls from Muslims who were "distressed" about the incident at Stockwell Tube station.

Roy Ramm, former Met Police specialist operations commander, said the rules for confronting potential suicide bombers had recently changed to "shoot to kill".

One terrorism expert said if the shooting was carried out by police - rather than special forces - it would represent a "pretty big departure" for the UK force.

Professor Michael Clarke, professor of defence studies at King's College London, said the officers who carried out the operation in south London were unlikely to be police.

'Head shot'

"These guys may have been some sort of plain clothes special forces," he said.

"To have bullets pumped into him like this suggests quite a lot about him and what the authorities, whoever they are, assumed about him.

"The fact that he was shot in this way strongly suggests that it was someone the authorities knew and suspected he was carrying explosives on him."

He added: "You don't shoot somebody five times if you think you might have made a mistake and may be able to arrest him."

Prof Clarke said police officers were not trained to carry out operations in this way.

"Even Special Branch and SO19 (Scotland Yard's armed unit) are not trained to do this sort of thing.

"It's plausible that they were special forces or elements of special forces."

Mr Ramm said the danger of shooting a suspected suicide bomber in the body was that it could detonate a bomb they were carrying on them.

"The fact is that when you're dealing with suicide bombers they only way you can stop them effectively - and protect yourself - is to try for a head-shot," he said.

Former government intelligence analyst Crispin Black agreed there was no other way of stopping someone who was an "immediate threat to life".

Muslims 'jumpy'

"It implies that the police knew who he was, it also implies that they considered him an immediate threat to life, under which circumstances they must try and kill somebody...you must shoot to kill."

But MCB has urged the police to explain why the man - said to be of Asian appearance - was shot dead.

Spokesman Inayat Bunglawala said Muslims he had spoken to this morning were "jumpy and nervous".

"I have just had one phone call saying, 'what if I was carrying a rucksack?'.

"There may well be reasons why the police felt it necessary to unload five shots into the man and shoot him dead, but they need to make those reasons clear," he said.

"We are getting phone calls from quite a lot of Muslims who are distressed about what may be a shoot to kill policy."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4707781.stm

[BennyBoy 0]

In siutations such as these the bomber usually knows _very_ little other than who his/her contact was and what he/she was supposed to carry out. Often the security forces can gain more information from an unexploded device than from a live bomber, given that the bomber could detonate the bomb at any time thus killing people and destroying evidence, it makes a great deal of sense to take the threat out.

[der bastler 0]

And the London police was ordered to shoot to kill if they though someone had a bomb...and I think it's pretty clear that this guy was gonna do something bad. Why would be walk in suck clothes and run from the police if he didn't have any bomb on him?

Kill everyone who walks in silly clothes?

There are other people who do not want to run into police/security: fare dodgers, thiefes, illegal immigrants...

Shoot 'em all for reasons of precaution? Well, then Bin Ladin has already won.

--

Especially police officers aren't trained to shoot to wound or threaten, they shoot to neutralize the threat. If you're going to neutralize the threat of a suicide bomber it would be best to empy a mag into him at close range. That's assuming he was one, of course, but how many times they shot him is completely irrelevant, you don't shoot to wound.

But I'm convinced everyone here would have put a well-aimed round into his head so as not to be criticized on an Internet forum.

Well, normally police uses 9+mm pistols. Ammunition which should stop people with shock (kinetics, impact of deforming bullet) and awe (accustics: bang; pain). Death of victim is possible (artery hit), but not intended (ok, if you go for the head there is little chance of survival left). Plus this kind of ammo should stick to the body to avoid hitting innocent bystanders.

I wonder why apparently nobody seems to have heard of dead-man-switsches yet? With such devices a headshot does not better the situation in any way...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man_switch

--

From what i have read and heard British armed police use subsonic ammunition (that the right term?) which go slower than usual ammunition so it would be wise to put a few more rounds downrange just incase.

Eh, I thought pistol/submachine ammo was generally subsonic? Good old 9mm? Or did the police rearmed recently?

[crashdome 2]

Garcia he may not have even been SO19 or any other armed part of the Met

Does MI5 have anything like this? I'm not extrememly knowledgable of the goings on with the MI-branches lately...

It appears there were numerous enforcement individuals chasing this guy. As a result, it is a possibility they mave been performing different degrees of recon before they started shouting and chasing him. This also suggests they may have coordinated and already made the decision to eliminate the possible threat if he did not heed the first warning.

I think I am correct in that assumption:

Quote[/b] ]"The information I have available is that this shooting is directly linked to the ongoing and expanding anti-terrorist operation," said Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair.

While the death is deeply regrettable, Blair said, the man challenged police and refused to obey instructions.

A senior police official told CNN the man was being followed in connection with the investigation. The man has not been formally identified, the official said, and it is not clear if he was one of the four suspected bombers police have identified from closed circuit television images.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/22/london.tube/index.html

[Gollum1 0]

Well, normally police uses 9+mm pistols. Ammunition which should stop people with shock (kinetics, impact of deforming bullet) and awe (accustics: bang; pain). Death of victim is possible (artery hit), but not intended (ok, if you go for the head there is little chance of survival left). Plus this kind of ammo should stick to the body to avoid hitting innocent bystanders.

You're right that using a firearm is of course first and foremost meant to neutralize the target and not necessarily kill it, but when a firearm is used it is considered lethal force, a last resort. Then all intent of wounding is out of the window, if the situation is such that the threat can be neutralized with non-lethal force, non-lethal means will be used, not a 9mm for it's "shock" effect.

I think it's very possible that the British police use subsonic ammunition as I think many US law enforcement agencies, including the FBI, do the same. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[hellfish6 7]

Too much discussion about hypotheticals. Stick to the facts - namely what's printed or published. Discussion about shoot to kill or subsonic rounds is best left for the WOT thread.

Last warning.

[Messiah 2]

From watching Tv today and reading the newspapers, it seems that the man who was shot, had been under surveilance since the thursday bombings, he left his house and was tailed to the underground station by plain clothed officers (granted, i'd suspect that our security services - mi5 etc - were also keeping a close eye) - this is the same house that they police also raided and arrested another man.

Once he approached the underground station, and considering the 7/7 and last thursdays attacks, the officers had no choice but to confront, and aprehend him on suspision of atempting to cause a terrorist act. He was challenged ('armed police' etc) and refused to stop.

He jumped the ticket gates, ran downstairs and entered an underground train. Remember he was doing this as he was being challenged and ordered to stop - he refused at every occasion, he was a suspected terrorist, and he had just entered a train which on 6 occations had been a terrorist target in london over the last two weeks. The reasons he was shot are obvious.

The tv pictures show undercover officers wearing the police baseball caps they carry to identify themselves, once the incident is over, to other officers and members of the public. This seems to me they were just armed officers.

Saying that the london armed police aren't trained to carry out headshots is ludicrous... Not every offcier in britain carrys a weapon, hence those who do are extremely well trained. Many are ex forces who retire into the police force (they get fast tracked into special duties on most occasions) and should with easy be able to carry out headshots. They are our SWAT in essense, and are perfectly able to shoot a mans head.

Anyways, i'm not quite sure what the fuss is about? I've heard many more storys of police shootings in America because they 'suspected' a man has a weapon and wont stop for police... this is no different... he was suspected of having a weapon, and wouldnt stop...

-------------------------------------------------------------

I must say we've got off exteremly luckily again. From all accounts and the current new headlines it seems the bomb was either a dud batch OR was the same batch as two weeks ago, and had deterioated in those two weeks (government bomb experts had said how volatile and unstable the bomb susbstances were).

It seems the detonators went off, and nothing else. The four men managed to escape (although all caught on CCTV) and are essentially briatains most wanted at the moment. They intended to kill themselves and others, so the sooner they are caught the better - it wouldnt suprise me if they tried to attack again and complete their plans.

[Colossus 2]

Shot man not connected to bombing

Quote[/b] ]A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers

behind Thursday's London attacks was unconnected to the

incidents, police have confirmed.

A Scotland Yard statement said the shooting was a "tragedy"

which was regretted by the Metropolitan Police.

The man was shot dead after police followed him from a

south London flat to Stockwell Tube station on Friday.

Two other men have been arrested and are being questioned

after bombers targeted three Tube trains and a bus.

The statement read: "We believe we now know the identity

of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police

on Friday 22nd July 2005, although he is still subject to formal

identification.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the

incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a

tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service

regrets."

The statement confirmed the man was followed by police

from a house in Tulse Hill that was under surveillance.

His death is being investigated by officers from the MPS

Directorate of Professional Standards, and will be referred to

the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

Arrests

Two men are still being held at Paddington Green police

station, central London, in connection with Thursday's

attacks.

The first man was arrested at around 1630 BST on Friday

during a raid on a block of flats near to Oval and Stockwell

Tube stations.

Eyewitnesses said he was led away with a woman and child.

The second man was arrested late on Friday night, also in the

Stockwell area.

Both are being held under anti-terrorism legislation which

gives police 14 days before they have to bring charges.

CCTV images

Scotland Yard said they had been contacted by over 500

members of the public following the release of CCTV footage

of four suspects.

Detectives said they were hopeful of useful lines of inquiry

coming from the calls and e-mails.

Three devices found after the failed bombings were the same

size and weight as those used in the suicide attacks of

7 July, which killed scores.

The fourth was smaller, apparently contained in a plastic box.

The same chemicals appear to have been used.

They targeted Oval, Warren Street and Shepherd's Bush

stations and a bus in Hackney.

The Hammersmith and City line train was removed from

Shepherd's Bush station on Saturday afternoon.

Transport for London said it hoped to have trains running on

the line from Paddington to Hammersmith on Saturday

evening.

"Ops! Sorry mate, won't happen again."

Nice going...

[Tovarish 0]

Personally, I have to say under the circumnstances, I believe the police acted appropriately. Wearing a heavy coat, and refusing to stop - even if they were plain clothed officers you'd have to expect there to be plain clothed officers at a time like this...I would not expect any other outcome.