Squad Control

[TA-50 0]

IMO, OFP players already mirco-manage their squads.  In general, the military works by a rule of fours.  There are rarely more then four soldiers directly controlled by one soldiers.  For example:

Company Commander: 4 Platoon Leaders (plus XO & 1SG)

Platoon Leader (& PSG): 4 Squad Leaders

Squad Leader: 2 or 3 Team Leaders

Team Leader: 3 or 4 soldiers

Hehe... looks like someone watched too many Delta Force or SEAL movies :-)

Na, what I mean is that regular army squads usually consist of 5 to 10 people, only special forces use 4 man squads (guess where they copied it from... nazi germany).

I'm in the US Army Dark Soldier...

The standard dismounted light infantry squad consists of approximately nine soldiers:

One Squad Leader (SL)

Two Team Leaders (TL)

Two M203 Grenadiers

Two SAW Gunners

Two Riflemen

What I'm saying is that if the player is acting as a SL, then he would control semi-intelligent AI TLs, who in turn control their fireteams.  I would prefer to see some functions delegated (as an option), especially when players are in the thick of things.

With this mindset, it would be easier for players to control larger groups thru delegation.  Imagine acting as a platoon leader or platoon sergeant, but having only four squad leaders appear on your roster.  How many of us has wished we could have squad leaders report to a player when we're building missions in the editor?

[sputnik monroe 102]

I'd like to see it based on the chain of command as TA-50 has pointed out.

If you're a section leader you have a handful of men under your command but you follow a leader, like in flashpoint now when your not the squad leader difference is you have 4 people to vector to where you are ordered.

Example1: In Flashpoint now, the commander will tell you stuff like 3 (that’s you) target machine gunner 400, and the machine gunner at 3 o'clock 400 is highlighted for you. So you go after him.

What I'm hoping is that in Alcoholics Anonymous it'll be broken down into grunt, section leader, Squad leader, platoon leader, Company, battalion. I'll use the above example again but instead I'll change the level in the chain of command. Keep in mind Example1 is as a grunt.

Example2 Section leader: Section leader 2 (that’s you) target machine gunner 3 o'clock 400. You order your handful of men to attack.

Example3 Squad leader: Sgt attack contacts at 3 o'clock. You order your section leaders accordingly.

Example4 Platoon leader: Ltn engage enemy forces at IA42. You order your Squad leaders.

Basically you really only have about 4 people that your directly issuing orders to at any given time. It would be handy to include some optional micro management for if you want to use it. For example you're a platoon leader and you end up ordering a rifle man in delta squad section 3 to get M21 from Ammo crate.

Probably more something for game two when it comes out. Still it would be neat if it at least would go up to platoon leader in this one.

[TA-50 0]

@Sputnik Monroe:

Exactly!

[ryankaplan 1]

a very good representation of this can be found in the game brothers in arms. A way i would prefer is as following:

-Keep the 12 man squad with the original f1-f12 keys.

-Keep the ability to create fireteams the same way (white, red, etc)

-However, when you choose the squad leader of a certain team, (eg. 2 of 2,3,4,5) and tell him to move, target or engage, he should do so with his fireteam. So if you say "2 attack soldier 2 o'clock" all his team will move to do so. This way you have to go through the team menu again.

-If you wish to command a lower ranked unit in a fireteam, you can still select him and tell him to do individual things, when he completes his orders (other than move and hold which cannot be completed) he would return back to his fireteam.

The Important thing however will be the squad leader ai's ability to command, which could maybe change according to rank.

I do agree with whoever said this is probably something for ofp2 rather than ArAs.

[crassus 0]

Quote[/b] ]-Keep the 12 man squad with the original f1-f12 keys.

I would have to disagree with this, as this does not allow the modelling of squads witch are just a bit larger than 12, e.g. the U.S. Marine rifle squad consists of 13 men, three fire teams of four men each. Also, the original F1-F12 setup includes having an icon of the player's soldier (why is it there at all?), and leaves a key (F1) unused. Instead, that key could be for that 13th Marine.

What if, instead of that:

The Mission Editor would have ready-made Groups, e.g. British Army rifle squad/section, U.S. Marine rifle squad, etc. as is available right now (though of course that 13th man issue is fixed). These groups would be hardcoded (via config, etc.) to automatically create the properly manned fire teams. He wont have to create the teams.

Quote[/b] ]-However, when you choose the squad leader of a certain team, (eg. 2 of 2,3,4,5) and tell him to move, target or engage, he should do so with his fireteam. So if you say "2 attack soldier 2 o'clock" all his team will move to do so. This way you have to go through the team menu again.

-If you wish to command a lower ranked unit in a fireteam, you can still select him and tell him to do individual things, when he completes his orders (other than move and hold which cannot be completed) he would return back to his fireteam.

Did you ever try out Full Spectrum Warrior? The set-up is just about as you suggest. In that, you controlled the movement and fires of the entire team, by cycling from one team to another via the Tab key. (Though your soldier was never really in-game; your views were that of whichever fire team you were directly in control of). I thought, if combined with the ability to control each individual soldier when necessary, as you suggested, it would perhaps be the perfect set-up for OFP 2.

But what about attachment to the player's squad? Say your squad is tasked with taking out a strongpoint, and your platoon leader has attached a SMAW or Javelin team to you. Do you think you should control only any attached team's fires and movements, or the individual soldiers as well?

[ryankaplan 1]

your idea about getting rid of 1 as the player is a good idea.

hmmm...

Quote[/b] ]But what about attachment to the player's squad? Say your squad is tasked with taking out a strongpoint, and your platoon leader has attached a SMAW or Javelin team to you. Do you think you should control only any attached team's fires and movements, or the individual soldiers as well?

hmmm....i'm not sure how this would work in the real army...but i am supposing if the attachment is a TEAM and you're the leader of a squad, it's most likely you have higher rank than him and can order all of them around...including splitting them up...i think...maybe ta50 would be able to answer that better since he says he's in the army

[crassus 0]

Yes, and I'm a former U.S. Marine.

I'm just soliciting opinions as to whether the player should be allowed complete control of the attached team.

Well if nothing else, all this is a nice thought exercise.

[TA-50 0]

Yeah, I agree with the idea that players should be able to control both the fireteam while having the option to move individual units.

If the arrangement of AI in teams is hardcoded one way or another, I think it'd turn alot of people off.

[ryankaplan 1]

@crassus...i told you what i thought about that already, but if you want me to make it really clear...yes, i beleive you should have complete control over the attached team. That is maybe unless, if the attached team leader is same rank as you(he wouldn't be higher than you, otherwise he'd take command), then, i reckon you should only be allowed to command the team.

[benreeper 0]

As this game is an update to OFP, I believe squad control will be similiar to what we have now. I would not expect anything different until OFP2.

What I would like now is more scripting options so that I can do more with what I have. For instance: being able to script the team color members assignment before the map loads and assigning that team to a hotkey. Also, allow the highest ranking team member control over that team.

--Ben

[Bordoy 0]

Quote[/b] ]F1 thru F-12 and the numeric keys beneath, limited squad sizes to only twelve members. Not to mention the seperate action menu.

don't forget a section is only 8-10 members big. An officer or NCO who is on the battlefield fighting would not have command over eveyone else in the AO.

[Scrub 0]

Maybe:

f1-f12 = selects section unit

CTRL f1-f12 selects section

ALT f1-f12 selects platoon

SHIFT f1-f12 selects blah blah blah....

When you switch from a larger level (Company/battalion, whatever),  The selection stays until you select another on that level, this way when you select down to the section level, you can just use the f1 -12 keys if you have many individual units to command.  But if you select a higher level of command, the level officer attempts to follow your orders with it's AI.

Also, How about acting like a squad leader, have a key to allow selection of units by pointing at them?

I.E.: Ctrl + click on some units, click on enemy/location/vehicle and away they go... Like in real life?

[Bordoy 0]

Maybe:

f1-f12 = selects section unit

CTRL f1-f12 selects section

ALT f1-f12 selects platoon

SHIFT f1-f12 selects blah blah blah....

When you switch from a larger level (Company/battalion, whatever),  The selection stays until you select another on that level, this way when you select down to the section level, you can just use the f1 -12 keys if you have many individual units to command.  But if you select a higher level of command, the level officer attempts to follow your orders with it's AI.

Also, How about acting like a squad leader, have a key to allow selection of units by pointing at them?

I.E.: Ctrl + click on some units, click on enemy/location/vehicle and away they go... Like in real life?

I wouldn't really want to press Alt+F4

[crassus 0]

@TA50, Scrub: Actually, what I meant by hardcoded was scripting done by the mission editor and the game's user interface (UI). Your hardcoded U.S. Army rifle squad, when placed in-game, would automatically bring up in-game, a streamlined UI for squad control. (Say, you press and hold and key to bring up the squad interface, which displays two icons/buttons for each of your fire teams...Release the key, the UI disappears.)

This lends itself better to control of higher command, platoon, company, etc.

[G-LOC 0]

A Battle Management System (BMS) will help to control severals squad. It´s another MAP with buttons to call artillary, air support, transport etc. BMS will help to play strategic games like CTI. Maybe ArAs became a RST like Fleet Commander if we have good ship´s.

G-LOC

[ruff 102]

Although OFP's method of controlling members of the player's squad has stood the test of time, I admit I was intimidated by it.  What's more, the squad control system, using both F1 thru F-12 and the numeric keys beneath, limited squad sizes to only twelve members.  Not to mention the seperate action menu.

Scripting has worked around these limits, and we've seen products like the Chain of Command interface and General Barron's real-life combat patrol come out of the community.  But I'm just wondering what BIS will have come out of the box.

So will ArAs move away from OFP squad control and perform like games like Full Spectrum Warrior and Brothers in Arms: with their contact sensitive point-and-click interface?  Or perhaps Ghost Recon 2 & 3, with their map-like interface?  Or will ArAs retain a revamped version of OFP interface?

Personally, I'm a fan of FSW's and Brothers in Arms (semi-) intelligent AI squad members who react to contacts in a realistic manner, and are able to be quickly moved about with the click of a mouse.

Any comments?

i hope they never incorporate anything with ghost recon 2 or 3 in this game

they totally wrecked ghost recon with ghost recon 2. its lost its sim feel.

ghost recon stay with ghost recon and as for FSW its a different game. Your squad members in that game are pretty dumb. wont shoot unles u tell them even though their lives depended on it. in the end the gameplay became pretty boring.

[korax 4]

Why not something simple but still similar to OFP's original system, F1-12 selects the group you want to command, and F1-12 again selects the units within that group. Pressing just F3 once will command the entire group 3 to move or do something, but pressing F3 > F4 F5 F6 will command 4, 5, and 6 in that group. That allows you to command up to 144 units with only one extra menu and button to press. (I think commanding more units than that in the heat of battle would be useless, larger sections should use a larger map-based command system)

[Guest Ti0n3r]

I dont think there will be more than 1 group of 12 soliders for the player to control. Just as in OFP.

After all, this is not OFP2.

[korax 4]

Oh For some reason I thought this was an OFP2 suggestions thread (with all the talk of completely changing the squad control system, which would only be possible for ofp2 anyway)

Consider this an ofp2 suggestion then!

[ollyboy 0]

i want bayonets make the game more violent and thats what i like, like cutting head of people, when headshot u see brain n stuff... like soldier of fortrune 2

[ryankaplan 1]

lol, cutting people's heads of with bayonets... I'm sure alot of the things you want will be implemented in ofp2 ollyboy. I really doubt that's going to happen in AA, Although neither is our squad control ideas

ps. could a forum mod move this topic to OFP2 forum? maybe that way it would make more sense...

[Guest Ti0n3r]

One thing I really want to see is a supress command. Like; "3, put supressive fire at De22". If a human can do it in a coop mission, then the AI should be able to do the same in singleplayer, right? I think this would be quite easy to implent and it wouldnt change the game balance or structure very much. Could be something like this; just hold alt+ctrl and press where you want the squad/unit to fire.

And yes, I know its been mentioned before.

[Scrub 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ti0n3r Posted on June 27 2005,16:58

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One thing I really want to see is a supress command. Like; "3, put supressive fire at De22". If a human can do it in a coop mission, then the AI should be able to do the same in singleplayer, right? I think this would be quite easy to implent and it wouldnt change the game balance or structure very much. Could be something like this; just hold alt+ctrl and press where you want the squad/unit to fire.

And yes, I know its been mentioned before.

For AI to give the command, it could be a question of the ratio of enemy to good guys, if they are engaged, and the unit's current position. If they don't see you on a bare hillside, you wouldn't want to make yourself known. Same can be said for causing an AI tank to go into difilade using LOS to an area and detecting the roll of the terrain.

[stegman 3]

I've just played a demo of Brothers in Arms. That had a pretty good squad control funtion, controlled only with the right button (and shift to switch to the second fire team).

Very simple but very efective, still felt like your in command and didn't detract from the game while i was looking around my keyboard for the right units.

...(f2,f4,f8...{!get blown up by T80!}...ever happen to any one else?)...

[Guest Ti0n3r]

Come on, the BiA command system wasnt very good and is certainly something that most of us dont want to see in Armed Assault. The current command system is close to perfect. It just need some tweaking.