The Middle East part 2

[Mr_Tea 0]

The fact that there is a state of Israel is enough for Hesbollah to continue the violence. Also Hesbollah has no right at all to attack anyone, it is only the private army of warlord Nasrallah operating in the souvereign state of Lebanon. It doesn`t matter if Nasrallah agree the UN resolution or not. He is a dead man, walking around a little longer, before he get send to hell.

[mp_phonix 0]

[Stealth3 0]

IDF using human shields

Quote[/b] ]Following another petition filed by the human rights organizations, the court issues a temporary injunction forbidding the IDF to use the procedure. Soldiers continue to use it.

There are more documented counts of the IDF using human shields than the so called terrorists.

[mp_phonix 0]

LoL.

"neighbor procedure" is used in this way:

they bring a civillian and tell him to open the door because we allready experienced booby-trapped doors.

"neighbor procedure" was allready canceled and is not being used anymore. so much for this arrgument.

and that "Betselem" is just a bunch of whiny Left wingers.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

LoL.

"neighbor procedure" is used in this way:

they bring a civillian and tell him to open the door because we allready experienced booby-trapped doors.

"neighbor procedure" was allready canceled and is not being used anymore. so much for this arrgument.

and that "Betselem" is just a bunch of whiny Left wingers.

I don't think he was arguing - just showing that everything isn't as purple in Israel as you may believe

Sometimes you can simply not see the forest. If it is for the trees or the propeganda, you decide

[deanosbeano 0]

hmm i think one of the lenses has popped out of your rose tinted glasses phonix.

i think your looking at it in this way.

no side can claim they are moraly greater in this last month,both sides have commited terrible crimes against each other unfortunately ,your picture does hold one truth, children have suffered no matter who has fired.

[Nemesis6 0]

Bet Selem = The Israeli communist party. You can't use them as a news source.

[Garcia 0]

BBC

Some other page

Another page...(though this doesn't seem very neutral...)

Yet another page...

[xawery 0]

Garcia! Don't you realise that the BBC is a biased, Arab-lovin' media outlet, hell-bent on discrediting Israel? Really! Nemesis6 told me so...

(a polite nod to Bernadotte )

[Garcia 0]

Garcia! Don't you realise that the BBC is a biased, Arab-lovin' media outlet, hell-bent on discrediting Israel? Really! Nemesis6 told me so...

(a polite nod to Bernadotte )

I was just thinking about that before I opened this page You god damn mindreader! Get out of my head!!!

About that, isn't this kind of ironic: BBC is biased because Nemesis found a blog ( ) that says so, but when someone came up with that film (peace, propaganda and the promised land (made by a organ that is there to watch the behaviour of the US media)) which shows how US media is manipulated in favour of Israel, didn't Nemesis claim that the film was biased and therefor didn't prove much?

[xawery 0]

To be quite frank, I'm rather surprised that the Palestinian is referred to as 'soldier' not 'terrorist'...

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

too many people with too many views.   this argument will get no where simply becuase the israelis are too proud and arrogent to do anything.  If theres ever going to be change in the middle east it has to come from Israel but they seem to think there only way to peace is war. There goverment takes the view that its always somone elses fault.  20 civilians are killed, its not bad intelligence from the israeli army, its HBA using the civilians.   Israil complain about how HBA target civilians but who has killed more so far in this conflict?  "its a shame there killed, but its for the destruction of HBA" claim israel.   hmm, well seeing as HBA fired 200 rockets today that tactics going well, it almost makes you think israel didnt plan the hole thing very well and just bombed anything that moves , "well hell, itleast one of those jeeps that has a red cross on its roof has got to have HBA in it right?"

now that rants over lets look at the flipside.  How dare Lebonen complain about the destruction of there country when they have allowed a illegal terrorist group to run and establish itself with the countriespolitics and social structure, doing little or nothing to try and prevent it.  There country is a breeding ground for militia training against the state of Israel.  While civilians are  targeted in israel the lebonese goverment sat back and watched.  How can israel leave it to lebonen to get rid of HBA when half there government is filled with there representatives singing for the destruction of israel.

moral of the story, there is no right or wrong answer, only opinion, SO PLEASE will you people who support Israel stop dismissing other peoples views as stupid and saying there argumant isnt worth crap becuase frankly to them neither is yours, they just dont go around adressing it and show concideration for other peoples views.  And that goes vice versa to those who support a cease fire and feel the need to tell everyone that whoever supports israel is inferior to them.

The second of the moral of the story is there really is no quick solution to all this.  The only short term fix would be a massive natural disaster or if alians attacked or somthing so people would actually come together for a change.  otherwise this eye for an eye will just carry on.  It makes me glad i live in europe, becuase for the most part, if i wanted to i could just turn a blind eye to this silly and futile conflict.  At the end of the day we all worship the same god,  just in different ways.  both sides are as bad as each other and both sides need to frankly gorw up.  

[xawery 0]

now that rants over lets look at the flipside. How dare Lebonen complain about the destruction of there country when they have allowed a illegal terrorist group to run and establish itself with the countriespolitics and social structure, doing little or nothing to try and prevent it. There country is a breeding ground for militia training against the state of Israel. While civilians are targeted in israel the lebonese goverment sat back and watched. How can israel leave it to lebonen to get rid of HBA when half there government is filled with there representatives singing for the destruction of israel.

First of all, only three countries (Canada, US, Israel) consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organisation. The Netherlands and Australia only view Hezbollah's external "Security Organisation" as terrorists.

Second, Hezbollah holds only 14 seats in the Lebanese parliament, and 2 government positions. So the claim that "half there government is filled with there representatives" (sic) is hardly true.

third, it is hardly just that a whole country should suffer for the actions of a few. By the same logic, Great Britain would be right in bombing the whole of Ireland, because the IRA is Irish.

fourth, the Lebanese government/army is far too weak to deal with Hezbollah. The mightly Isreali Goliath is unable to neutralise Hezbollah; how could a weak government, only recently relieved of Syrian influence (note that Syria supports Hezbollah),perform such a feat then? UN resolution 1559 is pretty pointless in this regard: it's idiotic to demand from a toothless state to dismantle a well-sponsored and well-armed militia.

Lebanon was well on it's way to becoming the first Arab country to know true freedom. As one journalist illustrated, Lebanon was the only Arab country where a woman could openly smoke a cigarette and drink a glass of wine during Ramadan, without getting stoned to death. The country was considered one of the few successes of the American attempts at pushing democracy in the middle east. Sadly, Israel has "turned the clock back 20 years" with it's bombardments. Without stopping Hezbollah.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

i agreee with everything you said,  and what i wrote served it purpose.  I wasnt making an argumant i was trying to destroy one.  i exagerated most things i wrote to try and show the massive diversity of opinion.  

one of your points simply isnt true however

"Lebanon was the only Arab country where a woman could openly smoke a cigarette and drink a glass of wine during Ramadan, without getting stoned to death"

firstly Egypt, Turkey, United arab emirates, Jordan, Armenia, Kuwait and Bahrain do not stone people and only certian parts of Saudi Arabia do.

secodnly lebonen isnt really a massive muslim state, it has lots of christians and other faiths living in it.

[mp_phonix 0]

hmm . .that is an interesting point Xawery. I think you write about Lebanon in the fact that :

Quote[/b] ]

Lebanon was well on it's way to becoming the first Arab country to know true freedom. As one journalist illustrated, Lebanon was the only Arab country where a woman could openly smoke a cigarette and drink a glass of wine during Ramadan, without getting stoned to death. The country was considered one of the few successes of the American attempts at pushing democracy in the middle east.

Hizballah ruined it not Israel. Israel did kinda "gave an extra" hand with the bombings and all, but if Hizballah would'nt pull of that trick none of this would happen. {i'm not reffering to that "they started it first"}. Hizballah has no reason to fight in the first place, the Sheba farms are Syria's {and don't use that stupid arrgument of "They didn't ask them back" -> them not asking it back son't mean it belongs to Lebanon now}.

I think the cease fire is a stupid idea and Israel should mop up South Lebanon and wipe out all the terrorist in the south, the let and International Force to enter the south.

I think it was stupid to retreat in 2000 because we litterly let Hizballah build an empire in the south.The whole area was riddeld with bunkers & underground tunnels.

Btw, some of the Hizballah fighters are using IDF unifrom, so much for "Geneva Convention" {although they didn't sign it}.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

I think the cease fire is a stupid idea and Israel should mop up South Lebanon and wipe out all the terrorist in the south, the let and International Force to enter the south.

Btw, some of the Hizballah fighters are using IDF unifrom, so much for "Geneva Convention" {although they didn't sign it}.

well as for mopping up, i dont think theres any question of that, HBA have proved there more than a match for the Israeli army, the Israelis arnt winning the war becuase there pushing further into lebonen, if anything it shows there loosing it.

As for the uniform stuff, i doubt it, theres no substantual evidance. More than likely just a rumor.

[mp_phonix 0]

the Israelis arnt winning the war becuase there pushing further into lebonen, if anything it shows there loosing it.

As for the uniform stuff, i doubt it, theres no substantual evidance.  More than likely just a rumor.  

I didn't talked about pushing further into, just mop up the area we are there now.

No it is not a rumor.

1.) Check their videos, they are wearing IDF unifrom in some of them.

2.) IDF soldiers reported  that some of Hizballah fighters that they killed were wearing IDF unifrom and Head Cover*

*Knowen as "Mitznefet" here in Israel. Only IDf uses it:

btw, Hizballah refuses to withdraw their forces from south Lebanon.

[Bernadotte 0]

<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Bet Selem = The Israeli communist party.</span>

<span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>Prove it!!</span>

About B'Tselem:

Quote[/b] ]The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members. It endeavors to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel.

Donors:

Quote[/b] ]In addition to the hundreds of individual donors in Israel and abroad, B'Tselem thanks the following for their generous support:  <ul>

British Foreign and Commonwealth Office  

Christian Aid (UK)  

Commission of the European Communities  

DanChurchAid (Denmark)  

Diakonia (Sweden)  

Development Coorporation Ireland (DCI)  

EED (Germany)  

Federal Department of Foreign Affairs of Switzerland  

Ford Foundation (USA)  

Foundation for Middle East Peace  

ICCO (Netherlands)  

International Commission of Jurists-Swedish Section  

Naomi and Nehemiah Cohen Foundation

New Israel Fund (Israel)  

Norwegian Foreign Ministry  

Shefa Fund  

SIVMO (Netherlands)  

Stichting Het Solidaritetsfonds (Netherlands)  

Trocaire (Ireland)

 

Keep trying!!  

[Nemesis6 0]

"B'tselem is a communist organization, founded by the Israeli communist party (Hadash). It's a political organization, and doesn't try to distance itself from its political stance, so it has even less credibility than HRW or AI have.

Now let's go over ISMers claims one by one:"

Now could you please stop being childish and stop with the whole "keep trying" thing? You know that when you tell me to, I will, and I will mop the fucking floor with your stupid arguments.

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]secodnly lebonen isnt really a massive muslim state, it has lots of christians and other faiths living in it.

He never refered to Lebanon as a muslim state, he refered to it as a arab state.

Quote[/b] ]I think the cease fire is a stupid idea and Israel should mop up South Lebanon and wipe out all the terrorist in the south, the let and International Force to enter the south.

They, apparently, haven't done even an average job on "wiping" out the terrorists in the south this far...therefor the cease fire is a good idea, because if Israel was to keep up this way, it wouldn't really do any good, except if Israel suddenly started doing what they are supposed to, kill the terrorists, not everyone and everything else...

Quote[/b] ]Btw, some of the Hizballah fighters are using IDF unifrom, so much for "Geneva Convention" {although they didn't sign it}.

The Geneva Convention was a agreement between civilized nations on how to fight wars. Unfortunatly Hizbollah doesn't behave like a civilized organization, which isn't much of a suprise. What is more unfortunate is that Israel, at times, falls down to the level of Hizbollah, and behaves like a rather uncivilized nation...

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

"B'tselem is a communist organization, founded by the Israeli communist party (Hadash). It's a political organization, and doesn't try to distance itself from its political stance, so it has even less credibility than HRW or AI have.

Now let's go over ISMers claims one by one:"

Now could you please stop being childish and stop with the whole "keep trying" thing? You know that when you tell me to, I will, and I will mop the fucking floor with your stupid arguments.

now thats exactly waht im talking about nemesis, the dam cheek, why couldnt he just argue his point and thats that. Sarcastic remarks like "keep trying" will just anger people, its simply needless.

[xawery 0]

"B'tselem is a communist organization, founded by the Israeli communist party (Hadash). It's a political organization, and doesn't try to distance itself from its political stance, so it has even less credibility than HRW or AI have.

Now let's go over ISMers claims one by one:"

Where does that quote come from? As far as I can find, B'Tselem has been founded by a diverse group of intellectuals, some of whom are were members of the Ratz party, which seems to have been supporting "secularism, the separation of religion and state, and civil rights". Sounds good to me

I wonder Nemesis6, do you mistrust HRW and AI because you have some ideological differences, or simply because both NGO's criticise Israel?

[Bernadotte 0]

Bet Selem = The Israeli communist party.

Prove it!!

"B'tselem is a communist organization, founded by the Israeli communist party (Hadash). It's a political organization, and doesn't try to distance itself from its political stance, so it has even less credibility than HRW or AI have."

First you claim it is the communist party.  Now you claim it was only founded by the communist party because a blogger posted it.

For your information, here are the founders of B'Tselem:

Quote[/b] ]

Dr Daphna Golan-Agnon (academic and founding director of left-leaning feminist peace group Bat Shalom)

Dedi Zucker (Knesset member for the Ratz party)

Haim Oron (Knesset member for the Mapam party)

Zehava Gal-On (Ratz party activist and future Knesset member for the Meretz party formed through the merger of Ratz and Mapam)

Avigdor Feldman ( civil liberties lawyer)

Dr Edy Kaufman (academic and civil liberties activist)

Nothing at all about Israel's Communist Party being the founder.  Nice try!!  

 

Sarcastic remarks like "keep trying" will just anger people, its simply needless.

Lighten up!!    

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

Sarcastic remarks like "keep trying" will just anger people, its simply needless.

Lighten up!!    

grow up

being cocky dosnt make you cool.

[Bernadotte 0]

one of your points simply isnt true however

"Lebanon was the only Arab country where a woman could openly smoke a cigarette and drink a glass of wine during Ramadan, without getting stoned to death"

firstly Egypt, Turkey, United arab emirates, Jordan, Armenia, Kuwait and Bahrain do not stone people and only certian parts of Saudi Arabia do.

Turkey and Armenia are Arab countries??  Prove it!!