The Middle East part 2

[mr_rOk 0]

Don't tell me that there isn't a single school in Palestine that isn't ready for class.

I know some people of Arab origin, well educated, well spoken and most importantly they are very good people.

What would you do if there were millions of Arab extremists (not all Arabs go into this category) on one side and the sea on the other?

And AFAIK, part of the land which is supposed to be Palestine, Israel captured in a DEFENSIVE war(s). I don't remember the Palestinians winning any wars recently, do you?

All they can do is cowardly attacks on civilians, which in turn portrays a not so well looking picture of the Palestinian personality as a whole.

edit:darn, Joku beat me to it=>last paragraph

[Colossus 2]

Just read this about what the Koran says about tolerance and violence.

BBC News

Quote[/b] ]

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Analysis: Interpreting Islam</span>

The arrival in Britain of the Islamic preacher, Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, has sparked controversy because of his views on suicide bombings. BBC Arab Affairs analyst Magdi Abdelhadi considers what wider Islamic teaching has to say on the subject:

The vast majority of Muslims feel that there is a huge gap between how they perceive themselves and their faith and how the rest of the world views them.

Many blame the discrepancy on the Western media. They accuse it of distorting what is essentially a peace-loving and tolerant faith.

The gap in perceptions has increased dramatically since 9/11.

Palestinian suicide bombings and recent beheadings of foreign hostages in Iraq in the name of Islam have only reinforced the association between Islam and violence in Western perceptions.

Consider for example this query posted on a popular Islamic website:

"Too often, the media in the West presents the image of Muslims as violent, but I know this is not correct. I am a Muslim, but... I will never kill anyone. When I watch the genocide in Chechnya or Bosnia, or the tragedy which unfolds in Palestine, it makes me very angry and very sad.

"I pray that Allah will allow peace to prevail among humanity, between Muslims and non-Muslims alike. I like to think that I and other Muslims can be a force for peace rather than for violence. Am I wrong?... This is really troubling me, and any advice you can provide would be much appreciated. "

The writer is clearly troubled by the difference between his or her personal experience of Islam and Western representations of Muslims. But more crucially, they seem to be seeking reassurance: is it right, in the face of apparent injustices to Muslims in Bosnia and Chechnya, that they should "never kill anyone"?

'Holy war'

The writer of the query must be aware of Muslim volunteers who have gone off to Chechnya to defend fellow Muslims against the "Russian oppressors". Is it then legitimate to kill in the name of Islam?

This is where the Islamic concept of Jihad comes into play.

Jihad is often translated as "holy war". But Muslim scholars describe it not so much as war, but as the right to self-defence. Under this interpretation, Muslims are enjoined to take up arms against their oppressors, be they local despots or foreign occupiers. Jihad is one of the fundamental duties of a Muslim.

But does this mean that Muslims who believe that they are engaged in legitimate self-defence or a war of liberation - like the Chechens or the Palestinians - are free to pursue their goals by any means available?

Is the killing of the civilian population of the enemies, for example, permissible?

Most Muslim scholars believe that the killing of civilians is forbidden.

In their support, they cite well-known sayings of Prophet Mohammad that forbid killing the enemy's women and children or burning down their vegetation - what are today known as scorched earth tactics.

But militants like Osama Bin Laden or radical clerics like Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi have a different take on this issue.

Radical interpretations

Under the assumption that the US is the enemy of Muslims, Bin Laden defended the 9/11 attacks on the grounds that the civilians who were killed contributed to the American war machine by paying taxes.

Although Sheikh Al-Qaradawi denounced the 9-11 attacks, his controversial justification for suicide attacks on Israeli civilians is strikingly similar.

Sheikh Al-Qaradawi believes, for example, that it is right to target Israeli women, because they are army reservists who can be summoned to active duty at any time - an argument that is also used by Palestinian militant groups such as Hamas to justify suicide attacks.

This is a controversial interpretation of Islamic principles and appears to be dictated by political convenience rather than rigorous adherence to the literal meaning of the Koran.

Strictly speaking, Islam bans suicide. But scholars like Sheikh Al-Qaradawi redefine suicide bombing in terms of a sacrificial act for a greater good, i.e. defeating the enemy.

This license to re-interpret the Koran and Islamic tradition is known in Islam as 'ijtihad'. Roughly defined, ijtihad is the right of Muslim scholars to develop original interpretations of the Koran with the aim of formulating religious edicts on matters that were unknown in the time of the prophet more than 1,400 years ago, such as cloning or organ transplant.

In this sense, they can wield enormous power on matters of life and death.

Rules or guidelines?

But in areas such as politics and social conflict, the boundaries between what is acceptable or not from an Islamic point of view can vary a great deal.

Take, for example, the controversial issue of whether Muslim women should wear the veil. The passage cited in support of an injunction to wear the veil is couched in language that is open to varying interpretations:

"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and protect their private parts and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent and to draw their veils all over their Juyubihinna".

The edition I am using refrains from translating the word "Juyubihinna", because it is ambiguous. Should the veil cover the entire body, or just the head and the hair? Other editions translate it as "bosom".

Some liberal scholars and Muslim feminists have also argued that the injunction applies only to women at the time of the prophet.

Such a reading questions the orthodox view that rules of behaviour laid down by the Koran are applicable anywhere and at any time. This is the view held by most Islamist movements who want to create an Islamic state ruled by Sharia (Islamic law).

Freedom of choice

At the heart of the disagreement between the two groups is the question of whether the Koran lays down specific and binding rules, or general guidelines. For the literalists, it lays down concrete rules.

The liberals believe that it only contains general principles, and that it is up to Muslims to interpret them in accordance with the needs of the society and the times they live in.

This exegetical dispute is not dissimilar to the one surrounding the ordination of gay priests in Britain. If the message of Christianity is interpreted as one of love and inclusiveness, then a person's sexual orientation should not really matter.

Similarly, if Islam - as most Muslims believe - is about tolerance, peace and freedom from oppression, then it is up to individual Muslims to make choices that do not infringe on the rights of others.

Quote[/b] ]Islam bans suicide.

Many got that wrong. How could they do this if it's banned by

there religion? I understand that they are angry and want there country back, but that dosen't mean they have to kill others to get it back.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Don't tell me that there isn't a single school in Palestine that isn't ready for class.

There are alot of schools ready for class as there are alot of Palestinian students attending them just as the 16 years old girl shot in her head yesterday in Rafah.There are also buisness man,lawyers contrary to your opinion that the only thing they know is being religiously brainwashed and straping suicide belts on their bodies.

Quote[/b] ]And AFAIK, part of the land which is supposed to be Palestine, Israel captured in a DEFENSIVE war(s

It doesn`t get anymore defensive then capturing other nations theritories,does it?

Quote[/b] ] I don't remember the Palestinians winning any wars recently, do you?

So in other words you are justifying Hamas-the only way geting your lands back is by mass bloodshed through declared war.

Some dare to difer and think that diplomacy is the way of solving problems even though the obstacles coming from both sides.

[Grizzlie 0]

@ colossus

It is like having half glass of water. One can say he has half-full glass, other would say he has half-empty glass. So u can say it is not suicide, bomber has died fighting for religion. And this way some fanacitic can call it, and if u belevie your mullah...

[mr_rOk 0]

@ Quicksand

Do you know how West Bank came under Israeli occupation?

Probably not, cos if you had known you wouldn't be writing such bull.

Of course diplomacy is the ultimate answer, the people (minority/majority doesn't really matter in a state like it is today) just aren't ready to make compromises.

I ain't justyfying HAMAS,PLO,Al Aksa Brigades, but if they see this as a means to an end let them kill themselves.

A lot of would be school attendants already died, on both sides, you seem to forget that it takes two to brawl.

Looking forward to your reply.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Do you know how West Bank came under Israeli occupation?

Probably not, cos if you had known you wouldn't be writing such bull.

Rest assured the Seven Days war is not lacking from my history knowledge.

What you fail to undestand is the moment you step foot out of your borders regardless of who started the war you are on an offensive,Israels territory didn`t quadrupled while they were on a defence hence my comment.

Quote[/b] ]I ain't justyfying HAMAS,PLO,Al Aksa Brigades, but if they see this as a means to an end let them kill themselves.

I don't remember the Palestinians winning any wars recently, do you?

Your words clearly suggested that you think winning wars is the way to solve teritorial problems which is not very far from the views of some of your quoted organisations.

Quote[/b] ]A lot of would be school attendants already died, on both sides, you seem to forget that it takes two to brawl.

I consider both sides innocent deaths equally tragic-the failure to realise that is often what leads to the spreading of hate from both sides picturing the other as a suicide bomber nation or trigger happy murderers.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Not trying to go off topic here but the 'argument' has been brought up once again that 'Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance - how can they justify x, y, z.'

1) ALL of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity) books are at best subject to personal interpretation and at worst self-contradictory and vague.

2) Every person has their own interpretation of what they read. With the books offering passages supporting BOTH sides of almost every arguement (eg kill/ don't kill, etc) almost any viewpoint can be supported with quotes seemingly 'backing it up.' So those who think killing heathens is fine have their quotes, those who don't have theirs. There is no single interpretation, because the books are such morasses of nonsense and self- contradiction. So the whole 'omg this cleric says it is wrong why don't they listen to him' arguement is both pointless and misguided. The whole book(s) are the problem, not people's interpretations of them - since there is no way to say which is the 'correct' interpretation. The cleric who says killing infidels is pure and holy is no more or less right than the one who says infidels should be treated as equals.

Hopefully that is the last on this 'arguement' we will see here.

[bn880 5]

For some reason people seem to accept a lot more from palestinian side than from Israel's side. Israel at least tries to target terrorists but palestinians just want to kill as many israeli civilians as they can.

Of course, the two are in totally different situations. You have to understand the life of an average Israeli when compared to an average Palestinian, and i assure you, you do not.

Israel has a lot more power and ability to get peace than someone who is as seriously opressed and abused as the Palestinians. The only real problem Israelis have is some fear that they might be torn to shreds after their army assasinates or keeps an occupation etc. The Palestinians have barely any army (ok none), no security force, destroyed this and that, they can't move. Israel can move towards peace a lot, Palestine will not be able to under these conditions... it's basic psychology, you keep abusing and beating a large dog all its life and it will not be your best buddy, it will try to kill you for the rest of its life. This is what you've got as a very rough comparison.

[bucket man 2]

And about that war that arabs started in 1948. When jews arrived they made militias to protect themselfs. Not a bad choise but somewhere on the road some of these militias turned to death squads. Their job was to force people out of their villages. Sometimes if they didnt leave the whole village would be slaughered.

This killing was not very widespread thing but still it happened. I watched a document about Moshe Dyan some time ago. They interveived some man who knew Dyan and he said that Dyan personally gave medals to a 5 man squad resbonible of killing and torturing of a beduin for a revenge on death of a jewish girl. The beduin was just in a wrong place at a wrong time.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Now if the palestinians had been teaching their kids to go to school and be lawyers and doctors, instead of blowing themselves up so mommy and daddy can get lots of money from Osama and Saddam, maybe A, we wouldn't be worrying about a fence, and B, they'd do better in court too.

Now i have to agree, here, if there was greater education to some of those who are being educated that blowing up Israeli's is the solution to all there problems and instead actually talk and negotiate with the Israeli's then i think there will be greater respect between the two nation's and maybe a some sort of peace, but sadly with religion being a major factor and those who twist and distort the Islamic religion being in a position of influence then im afraid the suicide bombings will continue and that this wall is the only solution at the moment.

[turms 0]

Now if the palestinians had been teaching their kids to go to school and be lawyers and doctors, instead of blowing themselves up so mommy and daddy can get lots of money from Osama and Saddam, maybe A, we wouldn't be worrying about a fence, and B, they'd do better in court too.

Now i have to agree, here, if there was greater education to some of those who are being educated that blowing up Israeli's is the solution to all there problems and instead actually talk and negotiate with the Israeli's then i think there will be greater respect between the two nation's and maybe a some sort of peace, but sadly with religion being a major factor and those who twist and distort the Islamic religion being in a position of influence then im afraid the suicide bombings will continue and that this wall is the only solution at the moment.

Its not so simple; most of the schools and social infrastructure(?) is funded by hamas... Where to get the replacement for the funding?

EDIT: added social

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Its not so simple; most of the schools and social infrastructure(?) is funded by hamas... Where to get the replacement for the funding?

EDIT: added social

The world is not simple, thats why you work hard, i don't see why you just blame it all on Hamas and say there is nothing we can do, if they wan't to get out of the situation then thye should do something not just sit around blaming israel etc etc.

[raedor 8]

haha, you think the bad islamic people are guilty? the settlers - they are very religious, too! - aren't?

[raedor 8]

I consider palestinians the most barbaric and racistic nation in the world, a nation which really can be considered as a terrorist nation.

Just recording it for the mods.

<s>hm. now we see that our mods are very unbiased and fair. no comment by them about this. after 9 hours!

what did you say when you had to give your job as mod away, denoir?</s>

/edit: deleted after ralphs reaction.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

haha, you think the bad islamic people are guilty? the settlers - they are very religious, too! - aren't?

can you structure that a little better, i don't understand.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]The world is not simple, thats why you work hard, i don't see why you just blame it all on Hamas and say there is nothing we can do, if they wan't to get out of the situation then thye should do something not just sit around blaming israel etc etc.

I am not blaming nobody here, im just saying that:

Hamas funding school and social infrastructure ---> palestinians supporting hamas.

How are you going to change that?

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Quote[/b] ]The world is not simple, thats why you work hard, i don't see why you just blame it all on Hamas and say there is nothing we can do, if they wan't to get out of the situation then thye should do something not just sit around blaming israel etc etc.

I am not blaming nobody here, im just saying that:

Hamas funding school and social infrastructure ---> palestinians supporting hamas.

How are you going to change that?

It's not for me to change, it is for the palestinians to change, if they want to be bombed or have an FFAR in there house from an Israeli Apache then continue on the current path, if you don't want it do something about it.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]The world is not simple, thats why you work hard, i don't see why you just blame it all on Hamas and say there is nothing we can do, if they wan't to get out of the situation then thye should do something not just sit around blaming israel etc etc.

I am not blaming nobody here, im just saying that:

Hamas funding school and social infrastructure ---> palestinians supporting hamas.

How are you going to change that?

It's not for me to change, it is for the palestinians to change, if they want to be bombed or have an FFAR in there house from an Israeli Apache then continue on the current path, if you don't want it do something about it.

Quote[/b] ]It's not for me to change, it is for the palestinians to change, if they want to be bombed or have an FFAR in there house from an Israeli Apache then continue on the current path, if you don't want it do something about it.

How would the palestinians change the situation? should they denounce themselfs from hamas and start to live without any schools, or social upholding?

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

Turms if i knew the answers i would have sent them to the U.N, what the palestinians need is someone who think's out of the box, the change needs to come from within they will never be changed from outside sources.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Suicide Bombers are just suicidal people nothing spectacular brave or evil there. They are normaly treated in hospitals. Terorist organisations use suicidal people nothing suprising err they are terrorists like the Stern Gang that is what they do.

As to the wall simple solution:

Move the wall to the internationaly recognised border.

The UN has already agreed it can be built there.

Kind Regards Walker

[ralphwiggum 6]

I consider palestinians the most barbaric and racistic nation in the world, a nation which really can be considered as a terrorist nation.

no bigotry is allowed on this place.

perm ban

[Necromancer- 0]

There is nothing wrong with a wall just to protect yourself..

The only problem is that they built a wall in their neighbours garden.

[walker 0]

There is nothing wrong with a wall just to protect yourself..

The only problem is that they built a wall in their neighbours garden.  

Hi Necromancer-

Err Actualy they built it through their neighbours kitchen.

Simple solution: Move the wall to the internationaly recognised border

Kind Regards Walker

[denoir 0]

Indeed. The wall is a sad reflection over the peace process, but nobody is denying Israel the right to build walls.. in Israel.

So all the rethorics of "Israel has the right to defend itself".. "Walls work"..."Walls are pretty" etc is besides the point.

The problem is not in the wall, but where the wall is built.

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

There is nothing wrong with a wall just to protect yourself..

The only problem is that they built a wall in their neighbours garden.  

Hi Necromancer-

Err Actualy they built it through their neighbours kitchen.

Simple solution: Move the wall to the internationaly recognised border

Kind Regards Walker

hardly IIRC it does not go into palestinian territory more than 10km's