The Middle East part 2

[Acecombat 0]

Well i cant see no hypocrisy mate , its a natural step

And once again americans will come up to you ask why does the ME hate us ...

[python3 0]

it is hypocritical in the sense that they support israel that has nukes + ballistic missiles and they are occupying territory which they should not be on. The lebanese aint complaining like the Palestinians.

[Acecombat 0]

King Fahd Calls for Streamlining Fatwas

P.K. Abdul Ghafour, Arab News Staff

JEDDAH, 14 December 2003 — Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Fahd yesterday called on Islamic scholars to counter extremism and misguided religious edicts by correcting Islamic thinking and streamlining fatwas.

In a written message to the opening session of a conference of the Islamic Fiqh Academy in Makkah, the king said scholars must “highlight the dangers which extremism poses to Muslim faith and conduct,†the Saudi Press Agency reported.

Islamic scholars must join hands to “correct the flaws in the thinking of some Muslims through dialogue in seminars, conferences and via the media,†said the king in the message, which was read out by Makkah Deputy Governor Abdullah ibn Dawood Al-Faiz.

The academy, an affiliate of the Makkah-based Muslim World League (MWL), groups Islamic scholars from Muslim states. The seven-day meeting will discuss various issues from an Islamic perspective.

The king urged the MWL to exert more efforts to coordinate with Islamic organizations worldwide to hold an emergency meeting of fiqh councils in order to issue unified fatwas on various issues concerning Muslims. “This must be one of the priorities at this time,†he added.

The scholars should use religious arguments to annul “aberrant fatwas,†the message said in reference to religious edicts issued by some individuals who legitimized militancy and suicide bombings.

The king also called on the academy to combat the practice of “takfir,†whereby Muslim extremists declare other Muslims infidels and heretics, warning the practice would trigger inter-Islamic strife and division.

Scholars should “tackle the strife caused by ‘takfir’ that is rearing its head in some Islamic societies,†he said. “There is nothing more dangerous than the ‘takfir,’†he warned.

“Terror organizations have taken advantage of the fact that some young people are ignorant of the true tenets of religion and enlisted them to engage in acts of killing and violence,†the message said.

Officials have in recent months repeatedly called to combat the “deviant thinking†that has led to terror in the name of Islam.

A total of 53 people have died in suicide bombings of residential compounds in Riyadh in May and November, prompting a crackdown by security forces on militants that has netted hundreds of terror suspects.

King Fahd’s message urged the scholars to provide a clear meaning for Islamic terms such as jihad, jamaa, dar al-harb and dar al-salam. “We expect that you clarify the correct meaning of these terms to serve as a reference for the young,†he added.

He also asked the scholars to simplify Islamic jurisprudence in a way that would be comprehensible to ordinary people and help them deal with contemporary issues.

“This requires cooperation between the Fiqh academy, the colleges of Shariah and the jurisprudence departments in universities and research centers,†he said and asked the MWL to coordinate between them.

He said Islamic principles are based on moderation, creating a unique balance between duties and rights in Muslim society and in relation between humans.

Finally the ol'king does something

[Acecombat 0]

it is hypocritical in the sense that they support israel that has nukes + ballistic missiles and they are occupying territory which they should not be on. The lebanese aint complaining like the Palestinians.

I was being sarcastic man

[python3 0]

oh, guess i misunderstood then

[Bernadotte 0]

From the newsdesk of AIPAC, the largest pro-Israel lobby in Washington.

Quote[/b] ]<span style='font-size:9pt;line-height:100%'>House Approves $2.6 Billion in Aid to Israel</span>

 

The House this week approved Israel's financial aid package

for fiscal year 2004, providing the Jewish state with $2.16 billion

in military assistance and $480 million in financial aid.

I wonder how much of that $2.16 billion will go to companies owned by the Carlyle Group .  

[Apollo 0]

Well i never got a reply in conjunction with my zionist debate ,however i will continue with it with posting this link:

Neturei Karta ,the Jewish anti-Zionist movement (adviced read)

[ericz 0]

From what I understand the trouble consists of Israel occupying formerly Palestinian lands and that Palestinians want their land back as well as recognition of a Palestinian state. If I am wrong, please enlighten.

I say give the Palestinians most of their land back in return for official recognition of Israeli statehood and throw in reciprocal recognition of Palestinian statehood.

However, if the issue is that Arabs don't want to acknowledge Israel and that they want to get rid of the Israeli state, then I believe that this cannot be permitted.

I am sure that issues aren't clear cut in the Palestinian-Israel conflict, otherwise it would have been solved a while ago. After decades of bloodshed and brutal actions by both it would be hard to imagine that the people in each nation would be open to letting bygones be bygones, unfortunately that would be the only way out of the problem.

As far as Americans involvement in the Middle East there are over three thousand reasons why we need to be involved. As much as the U.S. has spent in resources and effort in resolving this problem, I can only shake my head at accusations that it has only contributed to the problem. Sure, there are many economical reasons to be involved as well, but there is nothing wrong with that. The U.S. nation is not an aide agency, it supports those causes that support it and its interests and I make no apologies for it, in fact, I support that position. Most of those that don't like this, tend to be communists, misguided idealists, Islamic fundamentalists and those that are opposed to the U.S. as the world's only Super Power. It's interesting to note that we have been killing these kinds of people for a while now when they present themselves as our enemies, I hope it will continue as long as I am in the military.

[Pick Axe 0]

I believe that Israel has rights to their land. I don't think that they will ever give up the temple mount, and they shouldn't have to. They had thier temple there for thousands and thousands of years, and they IMOHO have a divine right to the land. And don't start going off on me about religion and all, I only said that it was my own opinion, so don't bite my head off.

By the way, this is my first post ever, and I am happy to join your wonderful forums.

[Akira 0]

Quote ]

BREAKING NEWS

Sharon: Israel will begin separating itself from Palestinians within several months if Palestinian side does not make moves toward peace. Details soon.

[/b]

[joltan 0]

Edit: forget it...

Btw: here's the link to the abovementioned article: BBC

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote ]

BREAKING NEWS

Sharon: Israel will begin separating itself from Palestinians within several months if Palestinian side does not make moves toward peace. Details soon.

</b>

err... that not good. And you know Akira's out of sorts when he forgets his trademark

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]I believe that Israel has rights to their land. I don't think that they will ever give up the temple mount, and they shouldn't have to. They had thier temple there for thousands and thousands of years, and they IMOHO have a divine right to the land. And don't start going off on me about religion and all, I only said that it was my own opinion, so don't bite my head off.

Heh ,i don't want to bite youre head of ,but i think leggaly teritorial claims cannot be made on religious ground.

Quote[/b] ]From what I understand the trouble consists of Israel occupying formerly Palestinian lands and that Palestinians want their land back as well as recognition of a Palestinian state. If I am wrong, please enlighten.

I say give the Palestinians most of their land back in return for official recognition of Israeli statehood and throw in reciprocal recognition of Palestinian statehood.

That's also the way i think about it.

Quote[/b] ]However, if the issue is that Arabs don't want to acknowledge Israel and that they want to get rid of the Israeli state, then I believe that this cannot be permitted.

I am sure that issues aren't clear cut in the Palestinian-Israel conflict, otherwise it would have been solved a while ago. After decades of bloodshed and brutal actions by both it would be hard to imagine that the people in each nation would be open to letting bygones be bygones, unfortunately that would be the only way out of the problem.

Well the real problem lies more or less with Sharon making high demands before negotiations can begin.1 full week of tottaly no incident's between Palestinian's and jews is hard to achieve for anybody with some power within Palestine as their are many independent faction's like Hamas for ex. that folow their own agenda.Sharon has been highly criticized around the world for making such unachievable demands ,especially since many see him responsible for the start of the Al-Aqsa intifada.

Meanwhile ,while he's blocking negoiation's ,Sharon is building a Segregation wall that is build largly trough Palestinian territory.

[Pick Axe 0]

Quote[/b] ]Sharon has been highly criticized around the world for making such unachievable demands

All Sharon is asking for is that his people don't get attacked. I think it is completly resonable to plea for your school buses to not be blown up. That's like saying if someone killed your son, you should just shrug and say that there is no way to achieve peace, why should I try. It is definetly unachievable to get a leader to stop caring for thier people.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]All Sharon is asking for is that his people don't get attacked. I think it is completly resonable to plea for your school buses to not be blown up. That's like saying if someone killed your son, you should just shrug and say that there is no way to achieve peace, why should I try. It is definetly unachievable to get a leader to stop caring for thier people.

Well ,you hit a key element of the current problem here.Most of the Israeli feel this way and supports Ariel Sharon in his politic's for the moment.The hear of the debate here is the question wether or not the Palestinian goverment can effectivly force Terrorist organization's within Palestine to stop with attacks on Israeli.I and most european's have the oppinion that Arafat and his kabinet do not have this influence over those terrorist groups to effectivly stop them for a week.(especially if Israeli helicopters are killing their leaders on a continues bases)

Sharon however has the oppinion that Arafat does have this influence ,and thus is responsible himself for these attack's ,by wich he get's the mark Terrorist.

Here are some Interesting fact's on Arafat ,wich may help in anwering that question:

Quote[/b] ]Given the extremely dangerous nature and the frequency of assassination attempts (and successes) in the volatile politics of the Middle East and the "terrorism" associated with it, Arafat's personal and political survival is taken by most Western commentators as a sign of his mastery of asymmetric warfare and propaganda, and his skill as a tactician. It is said that he has studied organizations such as the Haganah, Irgun and the Stern Gang. Some commentators also believe his personal survival is largely due to the fear that he could become a martyr for the Palestinian cause if he were to be assassinated or even arrested (both are generally within Israel's capabilities).

His ability to adapt to new tactical and political situations is perhaps exemplified by the rise of the Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad organizations, fundamentalist groups using Islamic rhetoric to motivate suicide attacks. In the 1990s, these seemed to threaten Arafat's capacity to hold together a secular nationalist organization with a goal of statehood. They appeared to be wholly out of Arafat's influence and control, and were fighting with Fatah, but their activities were tolerated by Arafat, who is alleged to have used their violence as a means of applying pressure on Israel. See PLO and Hamas for statements in that respect. Others view the retributions and restrictions by the IDF on Arafat and his security forces as having prevented him from effectively controlling the region.

However, as of 2002, the Israeli government and many commentators were convinced that the Fatah faction's Al Aqsa Brigades had simply adopted the methods of the fundamentalist groups, and were under Arafat's direct command. What is more, spokesmen for Hamas and Islamic Jihad were publicly supporting Arafat. Arafat seemed to be adopting a similar structure to that of the Irish Republican Army and its political wing Sinn Fein, wherein the political arm can claim plausible deniability of actions undertaken by the military arm.

On May 6, 2002, the Israeli government released a report, based in part on documents allegedly captured during the Israel Defense Forces' occupation of Arafat's Ramallah headquarters, which shows the connections, and includes copies of papers seemingly signed by Arafat himself authorizing funding for those organizations' terror activities. These documents however drew skepticism from various quarters since the IDF forcefully prevented any independent observers or reporters from observing the operation.

Others simply point to the constraints of the political situation, and argue that Arafat could neither condemn nor constrain the tactics employed; and that any attempt to do so would endanger his rule or his life. Furthermore, refusal to employ terrorism would amount to a de facto surrender to Israel, which has access to weapons that Palestinians so far lack. The use of suicide bombers appears to be a permanent feature of this conflict. The number and intensity of attacks rose sharply in the first months of 2002.

In March 2002, the Arab League made an offer to recognize Israel in exchange for Israeli retreat from all territories captured in the Six-Day War and statehood for Palestine and Arafat's Palestinian Authority. Supporters of this declaration see this as a historic recognition of Israel by the Arab states, while critics of this offer say that it would constitute a heavy blow to Israel's security, while not even guaranteeing Israel the cessation of suicide bombing attacks.

The Arab League offer coincided, however, with yet another upsurge of Palestinian terrorism against Israel (some of which came from Arafat's own Fatah militants), that led to more than 50 Israeli dead. Ariel Sharon has previously pressured Arafat to speak strongly in Arabic against frequent suicide bombings; following the attacks, he declared that Arafat assisted the terrorists and therefore made himself an enemy of Israel and obviously irrelevant to any immediate peace negotiations. The declaration was followed by Israeli entry to the cities of the West Bank, in a program called "Operation Defensive Shield".

There was some speculation that lack of personal trust between the two men played a part in this escalation.

Persistent attempts by the Israeli government to identify another Palestinian leader to deal with had failed; and Arafat was enjoying the support of groups that, given his own history, would normally have been quite wary of dealing with him or of supporting him.

Arafat was finally allowed to leave his compound on May 3, 2002 after intensive negotiations led to a settlement; six terrorists wanted by Israel, who had been holed up with Arafat in his compound, would not be turned over to Israel, but neither would they be held in custody by the Palestinian Authority. Rather, a combination of British and American security personnel would ensure that the wanted men remained imprisoned in Jericho. With that, and a promise that he would issue a call in Arabic to the Palestinians to halt terrorist attacks on Israelis, Arafat was released. He issued such a call on May 8, 2002, but, as was the case before, not even his own Fatah acted accordingly.

This just raises an all other question.How should we really define these "terrorist act's".Are their truly Terrorist or rather millitia's engaged in Asysmetric warfare with an Enemy much stronger than them conventionaly.Not that i wan't to go onto symantic's with this.I raise this question because ,as how i read it ,many Israeli today see the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a full open war ,then if this really is a war in the conventional sense can these terrorist attack's not been seen as mere act's of assymetric warfare rather than pure attrocity's ,albeit with the difference that this act's are targetted on Israeli citizin's ,though many times Settlers or IDF to?

[Pick Axe 0]

Quote[/b] ]I and most european's have the oppinion that Arafat and his kabinet do not have this influence over those terrorist groups to effectivly stop them for a week

Well I am not a european. I am an american, and I, and, well acctually, I don't have a clue what most americans think, and I am not going to try and speak for them, have the opinion that Arafat does have that influence. Think about the position Sharon is in. He is the leader of the Israeli people, if he does nothing, he will be critized by his own people. On the other hand, if he tries to defend his people, then the Islamic world and Europe will criticize him. Which do you think he is going to do, listen to his own or to Europe?

What if there were people in your country, doing suicide attacks against your children and countrymen everyday, what would you do?

When a whole school bus full of Israeli kids is blown up, your Europeans say nothing. But if one palestineni kid is accidentily killed in a raid in retalliation for that suidide bombing, then you all start criticizing Sharon. Why is that the case? Are Isreali lives worth less?

[TexMex Leprechaun 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well I am not a european. I am an american, and I, and, well acctually, I don't have a clue what most americans think, and I am not going to try and speak for them, have the opinion that Arafat does have that influence. Think about the position Sharon is in. He is the leader of the Israeli people, if he does nothing, he will be critized by his own people. On the other hand, if he tries to defend his people, then the Islamic world and Europe will criticize him. Which do you think he is going to do, listen to his own or to Europe?

What if there were people in your country, doing suicide attacks against your children and countrymen everyday, what would you do?

When a whole school bus full of Israeli kids is blown up, your Europeans say nothing. But if one palestineni kid is accidentily killed in a raid in retalliation for that suidide bombing, then you all start criticizing Sharon. Why is that the case? Are Isreali lives worth less?

Exactly, Sharon has to do what he has to do to insure the saftey of the Israelie people. What needs to be done is the relocation of the people of Palestien into an area of their own that is aways from any Isrealie, or better yet be moved into another arab country. Most of you may think this is a horrible, gross thing to do, but the people of Palestien can not control the terrorist, nor do they care to. If the anybody in Palestien even tried to help stop terrorism it would be one thing, but they do not, and I believe most probably support it. The mid-east will not see peace till the end of the world, it's just almost impossible.

[Pick Axe 0]

Quote[/b] ]Exactly...

Finnally, someone that agrees with me! Look, you all have your opinion, but I base mine on the actions of the parties involved. Israel uses restraint in everything they do, even though the palestinenis use below-the-belt tactics and seem to have no morals at all.

Quote[/b] ]From what I understand the trouble consists of Israel occupying formerly Palestinian lands and that Palestinians want their land back as well as recognition of a Palestinian state. If I am wrong, please enlighten.

I say give the Palestinians most of their land back in return for official recognition of Israeli statehood and throw in reciprocal recognition of Palestinian statehood.

The Palestinians want ALL of Israel. They will not stop untill they get that. And the fact is that that won't happen because Israel has one of the best trained and strong-willed armies in the world. How many powerful arab nations did they fight off in 1947?? (is that the right year, I can't remember?)

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well I am not a european. I am an american, and I, and, well acctually, I don't have a clue what most americans think, and I am not going to try and speak for them, have the opinion that Arafat does have that influence. Think about the position Sharon is in. He is the leader of the Israeli people, if he does nothing, he will be critized by his own people. On the other hand, if he tries to defend his people, then the Islamic world and Europe will criticize him. Which do you think he is going to do, listen to his own or to Europe?

I do not nessecarily disagree ,HOWEVER ,it is very clear that Israel is not solving the issue with making such demands before negotiation's ,neither is it preventing terrorist attack's on it's soil.You can say Sharon has to defend his people ,but he is partly responsible for the escelation of the conflict the last years.Not wanting to negiotiate is taking a stance that effectivly will change nothing ,terrorist attack's will continue and both states will remain in war with eachother.It will further enrage the Muslim world and make the Israeli more hated.Even the segregation wall they are planning to build won't change the situation ,the ONLY way you can change this situation is by DIALOGE.And part of good negotiation's is making offer's to achieve youre goals ,like Cescessation of colonialism ,and returning the Settler taken Palestinian lands since (what accord again) ,ah Well the west bank complete and Gaza complete will suffice ,and that will DECREASE the anti -Jewish sentiments ,not that it will root out all problem's but any step on the diplomatic front can change the current situation on ground.

The more that Sharon lets the situation escalete ,the harder it get's to return to the neggotiation table.

Quote[/b] ]What needs to be done is the relocation of the people of Palestien into an area of their own that is aways from any Isrealie, or better yet be moved into another arab country. Most of you may think this is a horrible, gross thing to do, but the people of Palestien can not control the terrorist, nor do they care to.

Well youre talking A: humanitarian headache to transfer all these people ,B: forcing them to give up land that orriginaly were their sphere of influence/control whatever you wanna call it ,to a country that exists only 50 years on the continent and has gained most of it's territory by annexing Palestinian lands.

Palestinian's are not Terrorists by nature.Had the Israeli state never existed than this problem wouldn't exist neither and Palestinian's wouldn't be called terrorists.It's reactionary evolution to the growing power of Israel that strangles the Palestines in sufficating island's surrounded by colonist's protected by armed millitia.

Israeli troops are so it seems not exactly fond of Palestinian infrastructure neither.There is a very constant destruction of Palestinian infrastructure going on in the Paelstinian lands by Israel.Free spot's are often used to build colonies/checkpoint's.

Palestine is economicly strangeld wich lead's to high poverty ,low literacy rates (shools get destroyed) and thus more breeding grounds for terrorists. (just go check the Gaza slum's ,potential terrorists a plenty)

The whole situation is a ever increasing spiral of violence.It's easy to magnify the act's of violence by the Palestinian's and minimizing the violence of the attack's of the Israeli troops occupying Palestinian town from time to time as pure act's of self-defense and preemtion.This is a dirty war ,and nor Palestinian's no'r israeli's have come tottaly clean out this conflict ,no'r did they in the past.Sharon himself has a very dubious war history ,don't want to go to deep in Shabra and Shatilla or other atrocity's of wich Sharon alegedly took part in or commanded for ,though he was a opportunistic commander that could exploit an advantage fast ,like how he did in Suez.

All in all ,i think only diplomacy might decrease the violence in the Middle East.

[TexMex Leprechaun 0]

Well the people of Palestien do want all of Israel, and will not be happy till they get it all, and terrorism will continue. It will take a maricle for the violence in that place to end. Its sorta like the American Civil War, the slavery was an issue, but the main reason for the war was states rights, and in the mid-east land and sovereignty are issues, but the main issue is religion. Muslims and Jews hate eachother, thats why there is so much tourble. The reasons for hate dates back to early Bible times, so I guess it's just something the people are use to, hateing one another. I do supoport Israel, anybody who fights terrorism I support, why I support the Russians in the Chechen war.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well the people of Palestien do want all of Israel

Ah and since when is that a fact? Back that presumption up or it won't stand as a ligit argument.I could easily say that the people of Israel want all of Palestine ,given the Israeli settlement's not a hard presumption.

[python3 0]

dude, stop speaking for the people of palestine. How many palestinians have you met to make such a baseless argument.Many just want a country of their own, just like the jews did after ww2. What would you do if lets say canada one day decided to go and occupy the US. After half a century of occupation, would you want to wait any longer for the peace process.

Quote[/b] ]But if one palestineni kid is accidentily killed in a raid in retalliation for that suidide bombing, then you all start criticizing Sharon

ok, look at the numbers. Many accidents have happened. Its not occasional as you make it. More palestinian civilians have died as a result of tactics such as firing 7 hellfires or dropping 2 500 lbs bombs in crowded intersections. These weapons are meant to destroy armored targets, not a 1000lbs car with people all around. A sniper is on the roof, what do the israelis do? They take down the building despite the fact that other families, human beings might i remind you, are living their. Does the NYPD go around demolishing apartment buildings. What would u do in the case of the palestinians when everyday, more and more of their land is being taken away. Olive farmers for example, have their land and means of living constantly taken away as a result of israeli expansion, illegally might i add. What would you say to your children when u cannot provide for them anymore and cant put food on the table. These are people just like you and i. Its a difficult life their living. You want everyone to feel remorse for the terror attacks on the israeli's, but what did they contribute to lessen the attacks? What would you do, if your son, god forbid is injured oneday, or your wife is pregnant and cant get to the hospital in a nearby town because of a roadblock and a curfew. See the palestinians must suck it up. We expect them to take such hardships against their civilian populous without fighting back. enough bs ok. Israel is not as innocent as u are portraying it. The israeli army is a terrorist entity. Go look up terrorism in a dictionary, and you will find out that the israeli army fits the description.

Quote[/b] ]What needs to be done is the relocation of the people of Palestien into an area of their own that is aways from any Isrealie, or better yet be moved into another arab country. Most of you may think this is a horrible, gross thing to do, but the people of Palestien can not control the terrorist, nor do they care to

Well ive got news for u, the palestinians are confined to the west bank and gaza, it is the israeli's that are moving closer and closer to them with their settlements. How can u control a populous when your security and police foeces are a target of constant bombardment?

[TexMex Leprechaun 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ah and since when is that a fact? Back that presumption up or it won't stand as a ligit argument.I could easily say that the people of Israel want all of Palestine ,given the Israeli settlement's not a hard presumption.

Ok,ok, maybe it's not a fact,never said it was, but in my opinion it is pretty obvious.

Quote[/b] ]dude, stop speaking for the people of palestine. How many palestinians have you met to make such a baseless argument.

Not speaking for them, just in my opinion stating the obvious.

[python3 0]

whats so obvious about it? The obvious thing is that israel wants all of the west bank/gaza. The proof: settlement expansion.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]whats so obvious about it? The obvious thing is that israel wants all of the west bank/gaza. The proof: settlement expansion.

Yep ,made that argument to ,it's more obvious that the israeli don't want peace rather than the Palestinian's. (well maybe apart from the terrorist groups)

Anyway ,he said it was just his oppinion ,in this debate it holds no value.

My point that i made was that given the situation at the moment only diplomacy might result in less violence ,blocking peace talks will only increase the spiral ofviolence as it has done the last years.Even if Sharon don't want to negotiate due to the attack's ,he will never be able to minimize those attack's but only by diplomacy ,as he cannot contain the terrorist organization's ,even with all the raids going on in Palestinian lands and the building of the segregation wall the attack's are only effectivly increasing.