The Middle East part 2

[Bernadotte 0]

I don't usually quote whole articles, but this one is really worth it if you are having trouble understanding theavonlady's anger.

Quote[/b] ]<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>Mideast peace plan draws right opponents</span>

Palm Beach Post Editorial

Tuesday, December 2, 2003

To understand how hard it is to make real peace in the Middle East, consider reaction to "virtual" peace.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has scorned the Geneva Accord, a proposed 50-page agreement worked out by Israelis and Palestinians who are not in either government. He accuses the Israeli negotiators -- among them diplomats who almost brokered a deal in early 2001 -- of being subversive. On Monday, when supporters gathered in Geneva to publicize the document, Palestinian representatives came under attack.

Hard-line Palestinian groups referred to those bound for Geneva as "collaborators," which in the occupied territories can amount to a death sentence. Palestinians who work with Israel, even under coercion, have been murdered. The Associated Press reported that masked men fired at the home of the ex-Palestinian information minister, who went to Geneva.

If none of this is encouraging, none of it is surprising, either. Extremists on both sides harbor fantasies and thus oppose any deal for a nonmilitarized Palestinian state that includes large parts of the West Bank. Palestinian hard-liners want to eliminate Israel, and Israeli hard-liners envision an Israel that stretches to the Jordan River. The Geneva Accord correctly dispels those fantasies, establishing Israel's border mostly along the Green Line that served as the boundary until 1967 and limiting the right of return by Palestinian refugees to the current occupied territories.

Moreover, the alternative -- Palestinian violence followed by Israeli reprisals -- has over three-plus years bludgeoned citizens on both sides and is taking the region away from peace. Israel's construction of a security fence that cuts into Palestinian areas has cost the country nearly $300 million in loan guarantees from the United States. Israel's weakened economy may lose favored trade status with the European Union. The Palestinian economy has been devastated, and the Palestinians still have no airport.

No wonder a recent face-to-face survey by the James Baker Institute found that a majority of Israelis and Palestinians favor the principles in the Geneva Accord. The Geneva Accord is controversial because it's timely and potentially useful and because the hard-liners know that any peace plan will have to be close to what the document requires regarding the most sensitive points. Resolving the issues between Israel and its neighbors would help the U.S. campaign against terrorism. That's a virtual certainty.

[theavonlady 2]

No wonder a recent face-to-face survey

LOL! Must've been Beilin facing Burg.

The article conveniently forgets to mention that Shimon Peres has warned against the Geneva trap. Ehud barak has not minced words on how much worse it is than the bankrupt Oslo accords.

Even the Israel left Labor party, who brought us Oslo, is not backing its own left extremists, such as Burg, Shahak and what's-her-name (edit: Yuli Tamir, former Labor left wing fanatic, now a political nobody).

And you dig up all this ignorant nonsense from some rag in Palm Beach. Figures.

[theavonlady 2]

To get an idea of how the average Israel was seen reacting on local TV this evening's local news (after 2 weeks of ramming pro-Geneva Accord interviews and documentaries at us through the tube), read The Geneva Accordion. Excerpt:

Quote[/b] ]The Geneva Accordion

By Reuven Koret  November 30, 2003

Observing the shenanigans leading up to the launching of the Geneva Accords, one doesn't know whether to laugh or cry.

Here we have some of the most discredited losers on the Israeli political scene, sucking at the teats of their European benefactors. Avrum Burg, who lost his party's race to become its candidate in the last election; Amram Mitzna, who lost in a massive landslide as that candidate, and their ringleader; Yossi Beilin, who failed to be elected to the Labor Knesset list, then moved further left to Meretz, where he failed to secure a seat there too.

10:30PM. G'nite all!

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ha'aretz, Israel's radical left wing newspaper, puplished a poll 2-3 days ago. 31% of those poled were in favor. 38% were against. This was a poll based on a whopping less-than-900 participants.

How can this be,I thought they released the Geneva peaceplan at monday, and if I am not wrong,today is tuesday.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Ha'aretz, Israel's radical left wing newspaper, puplished a poll 2-3 days ago. 31% of those poled were in favor. 38% were against. This was a poll based on a whopping less-than-900 participants.

How can this be,I thought they released the Geneva peaceplan at monday, and if I am not wrong,today is tuesday.

All we lucky Israeli citizens had copies of the agreement with detailed fallutin' explanations on glossy paper dozens of pages thick stuffed into our mail boxes over a week ago, paid for by Swiss and EU taxpayers.

Many trees were killed for nothing in making this production.

[Bernadotte 0]

LMAO @ theavonlady's rebuttal.  

- the quoted editorial is from "some rag in Palm Beach"

- the survey indicating Israeli support must be bogus

- the peace agreement document is on glossy paper responsible for the deaths of many trees

- the process was Swiss and EU sponsored

- it's all nonsense opposed even by left-wing fanatics

- the architects of the agreement are mostly failed politicians

You and those who think like you are getting pretty desperate, no?

Unable to criticise the agreement on the basis of what it says you resort to attacking those who wrote it, those who support it and the type of paper it was printed on?

Here's another supportive editorial from some rag in NYC:

Quote[/b] ]

<span style='font-size:11pt;line-height:100%'>A Fine, Unofficial Mideast Peace Deal</span>

December 2, 2003

To nitpick at the alternative blueprint for Middle East peace presented yesterday in Geneva is to miss the importance of the exercise. Sure, there are elements that require more work, more elaboration, more debate. What is truly momentous is that Israelis and Palestinians of good will have done what their current leaders have shown themselves incapable of doing, and what the United States has long urged the two sides to do: declaring in concrete terms how their conflict can end. This courageous feat by Yossi Beilin and Yasir Abed Rabbo should be welcomed, and built on.

The usual extremists immediately pounced on the Geneva Accord as an act of treason to their respective causes. Palestinian radicals predictably focused on the provisions that effectively deny Palestinian refugees a blanket right of return to former homes in what is now Israel, though such a step has long been inevitable. Yasir Arafat, who was tacitly behind the negotiations, did what he always does under pressure — he waffled. Israeli hard-liners denounced the sharing of Jerusalem and the evacuation of most settlements.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon made no effort to conceal his hostility for the accord. His spokesman said it was tantamount to suicide by Israel and a "Swiss golden calf" for the Israeli left.

The Geneva document is hardly radical. It calls for two neighboring states with two capitals in Jerusalem, the evacuation of most Jewish settlements and the incorporation of the rest into Israel in exchange for an equivalent amount of land. It also calls for a limit, to be set by Israel, on the number of Palestinian refugees who can settle in Israel, and compensation or resettlement for the rest.

There is plenty left to negotiate here. But the fact is that this is more or less how it has to end. Neither side will have all of Jerusalem. The Palestinian refugees will not all come back, effectively overwhelming the Jewish state. Many settlers will have to go. The alternative is for the antagonists to continue their endless arguments over whose religion grants what land to whom, and to continue killing each other, dragging the rest of the world deeper and deeper into the fray. The principles of the Geneva Accord are the right way to go.

[bmgarcangel 0]

Why do most people believe that america is bad for supporting Israel? why do you guys think israel is the bad boy around there??  hmmm?  Did you know that in the six day war israel took the Gaza and West bank from Eygpt and Jordan???  They took it so that they could establish defensive positions

No we didn't. We took it because Egypt declared their intent to anihilate Israel and drive the Jews into the sea. Jordan could've stayed out of the conflict. Israel begged King Hussien not to but................

I'm sorry we won.

I was actually trying to support you guys

Thank you, yes, I understood that. But your statement that the war was to establish defensive positions is incorrect or at least innaccurate. Rather, establishing those defensive positions was a result of the war.

We didn't go into a war to grab a chunk of land to establish better defensive positions. That sound like Israel would have done it even if the Arabs hadn't mobilized even a single soldier or tank along Israel's borders.

Quote[/b] ], the Israelis want peace with them.  The problem is that the Palestinians want it all and thats what disrupts most of peace negotiatons with there ill intent.  The israeli's will not and I hope won't pull out of places like West bank and Gaza strip till peace is assured.

I hope we never pull out of Judea and Samaria.

Quote[/b] ]but the israeli's should see the Palestinians do more of there share of the job first. like arresting Terrorists.  Palestinians authority needs to do there job.

This will not occur, as the PA would have to arrest themselves.

Quote[/b] ]Other problem is, most of the members of the Palestinian authority are Hamas and other extremeist organization members.

Don't know about members but supporters, sympathizers and collaberators for sure.

The term we - excuse me - many of us use for the PA is a "terrorist entity".

LoL

No da you guys had a right to claim the land in the right of defense of the state of Israel. I have always had my views set there.

But still, you guys should at least give a little land to the palestinians. I mean, I live in a county ( county not country ) that is about the size of your state. You have about 2 million Palestinians living there and around 5 million Israeli's. I can hardly believe how you guys mannage with that many people, I mean, I swear to go, I just can't imagine that........... But at least give a little land to each other or live in peace and harmony for once. Its not the Israeli's problem, I mean seriously, it ain't, that the peace hasn't come to reason yet.

The Palestinian authority like to say we want all of this and that and you have to get out too. But unlike them I believe most of the Palestinians would like to have peace and such, but how can they when they live in fear from mainly there own people. Hamas being one of them. So in that case, they live in fear too, so how can they make peace while hamas is still roaming around. Well, i'd say anyone who is right in your mind decide to voice out for peace and perhaps things would change. I also think if that happened hamas would die quickly. Arafat would sit down and wonder wtf is going on. And then perhaps the Peace would be accomplished.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]I hope we never pull out of Judea and Samaria.

Quote[/b] ]MITZPEH DANNY, West Bank (AP) - Just six months after Israel committed to a peace plan requiring it to dismantle scores of illegal Jewish settlement outposts, an Associated Press inspection of 18 of the encampments found the settlers have expanded significantly. New roads, additional trailer homes and construction on stone villas were among the striking signs of permanence.

I see that you are not alone (unfortunatly) Israel has no hope for peace, unless Israel gives up something, isnt that quite obvious by now?

EDIT: forgot the source

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]I see that you are not alone (unfortunatly) Israel has no hope for peace, unless Israel gives up something, isnt that quite obvious by now?

The Settler's often are a key issue to the conflict.The ignite most hate for the Palestinian ,about halgf the terrorist attack by Palestinian's is directed on colonists.In addition ,colonists are often armed and protected by IDF forces ,both are not ashamed of killing of some Palestinian's themself's. (although such thing's rarely hit the media)

These colonists only settle in Palestinian area's.There is more than enough space for new towns in Israel itself ,yet every colonist has to build on west-bank & Gaza where the town density is highest in the region.On the ground it's pretty rediculous ,one day you see 2 Palestinian towns on 1 kilometer of eachother lmaying on the coast.The day after ,a number fo engineers with heavy construction material have rush-build a settlement ,basicly three bunker-like houses with fortification around it.All this to claim new land.

They are even rush building a great wall all around Palestine. And it's not that they are preserving the Palestinian territorial integrity with this.They tend to build this wall right next to the Palestinian Village's ,to thus claim most of the surrounding ground for themselfs.As a result you get for 90%island towns ,who in tern are abandod for most since living conditions become impossible.

One of the biggest problem's with these colonists is the political power they have.They are a very strong lobbying group ,theyre in a quite sufficiant number to have a considerable electorate power.Sharon was partly elected by these people ,he would be very dumb for personal reason's should he enrage his elector's by stopping colonization and demanding of withdrawls of colonists out of the Palestinian terrorists ,he wouldnt be able to afford it Politicly.

Nor would most other Jewish candidates for PM be able to do.Even Barak ,a Israeli Prime minister wich i respected a 1000 times more than Sharon (for Chabra and Chatilla reasons) couldn't just neglect the power of the colonists.

[bmgarcangel 0]

If 75% of the Israeli's recently voted that they side for peace then I believe most of them are ready for it.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

If 75% of the Israeli's recently voted that they side for peace then I believe most of them are ready for it.

I think the question of the percentage of people who are in favor of peace is irrelevant- if the number is over 50%, then that doesn't solve any of the salient issues at all; conversely, if the number is below 50%, the entire issue of a peace process is moot to begin with, yes? A better question would be how many people would be willing to sacrifice interests that they might classify as "very important" to either their nation's mandate or well-being in the name of peace.

[bmgarcangel 0]

More than you can imagine. My teacher who is from Israel goes there every summer and has dozens of relatives there and tons of friends that he keeps in contact with. He told me yesterday, the all of his relatives except for a few old fellows and 2 friends, except for thus guys, everyone else he knows want peace. No more suicide bombings. No more checkpoints. The Right to live in peace and harmony. No more Curfew. No more of all of that. And they said, they are willing, to give up some of the terroritory, preferably areas to the North east of Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip.

[Bernadotte 0]

...all of his relatives except for a few old fellows and 2 friends, except for thus guys, everyone else he knows want peace.

What do those few old fellows and 2 friends want if they don't want peace?

(And don't say hunting down and killing terrorists because that happens in many peaceful countries too.)

[Apollo 0]

Israel?s plan for expanding the segregation Zone in the West Bank:

The full extent of the segregation plans have not been officially published by the Israeli government. However, the Israeli occupation army revealed recently a map on Israeli TV,

channel 2 showing the full extent of the segregation plan.

On 18 March, 2003, al Quds newspaper published a map outlining Sharon?s projected segregation plan. Analysis of these

maps reveals that Israel is going ahead with its plan to implement both an Eastern and Western segregation zones as shown in Map 31.

This plan will divide the West Bank into several disconnected cantoons in order to have geographical control over all Palestinian cities, towns and villages. Most of the Israeli colonies constructed on Palestinian lands are planned to be annexed to Israel. In addition, Israel will have full control over all West Bank national borders along the green line and the Jordan Valley, therefore disconnecting West Bank borders with Jordan.The plan shows also that Israel plans to keep control over the Palestinian lands that were classified as area C during the peace negotiations. The systematic long term planning to

colonize the West Bank represented in the establishment of colonies, bypass roads, closed military areas, nature reserves and security zones describe this anticipated situation that

Israel is trying to impose on Palestinians as a final status situation.

The map shows the complexities that Israel is creating to solve the Israeli- Palestinian conflict. Such a situation will not be acceptable to Palestinians since it will abort any possibility to create a viable and a free Palestinian State. The anticipated situation contradicts with the International laws and conventions, contradicts with the Oslo accords and the vision of USA president George Bush to create a viable and free Palestinian State.The map of the anticipated situation is

divided into 2 zones: the western zone, which is the part of the West Bank that has borders with Israel along the green line in addition to the corridors of colonies inside the West Bank and the eastern zone, which is the part of the Jordan Valley that Israel is trying to keep under its control as the eastern security zone.The western zone will enclose 36.6 km2 of Palestinian built-up areas and contains 150 Palestinian communities with a total population of 696727 Palestinians. The number of colonies inside this zone is 155 colonies and outposts with an area of 129.7 km2, and number

of 382700 Israeli colonists (based on 2001 statistics). The total area of this zone is 1248 km2, which constitute 21.3 % of the total West Bank area. The eastern zone will enclose 3.13 km2 of Palestinian built-up areas and contains 20 Palestinian communities with a total population

of 16418 Palestinians. The number of colonies inside this zone is 41 colonies and outposts with an area of 32.95 km2, and number of 7434 Israeli colonists (based on 2001 statistics).

The total area of this zone is 1242 km2, which constitute 21.2 % of the total West Bank area. The sum of the western and eastern zones show that there are 39.73 km2of Palestinian builtup areas and contains 170 Palestinian communities with a total population of 713145 Palestinians. The number of colonies inside this zone is 196 colonies and outposts with an

area of 162.65 km2, and number of 390134 Israeli colonists. The total anticipated area for the

security zone is therefore 42.5% of the total West Bank area. Israel has to its future boundaries with the West Bank in a just and peaceful resolution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict, it should have drawn its borders inside the green line as shown in map 32.

The Segregation Wall A new Episode of changing Jerusalem Boundaries.

UN Report Blasts Israeli Wall as 'De Facto Annexation'

[bn880 5]

2 words: UN Intervention

2 more: no justice

[theavonlady 2]

2 words: UN Intervention

2 more: no justice  

Yes. Your last two words perfectly describe the trait of your first two words.

[bmgarcangel 0]

I believe a un intervention is what is needed. But I believe also that it shouldn't happen. The Israelis and the Palestinians I think will have to find a way, to live in peace, give each some terroritory, or the fighting will not end. Its a simple fact, has been for hundreds of years.

[theavonlady 2]

I believe a un intervention is what is needed.

This is an organization highly influenced by over 120 Moslem nation members. No dice.

Some links on the UN's outrageous treatment of Israel:

U.N. Versus Israel

Christian Action For Israel

Quote[/b] ]But I believe also that it shouldn't happen.  The Israelis and the Palestinians I think will have to find a way, to live in peace,

Israel has proposed offers of peace since immediately after the 6 Day War. Israel has already offered and enacted territorial compromises with disasterous results to Israel.

Quote[/b] ]give each some terroritory, or the fighting will not end.

The fighting will end when Israel wakes up and fights a war to the finish.

Quote[/b] ]Its a simple fact, has been for hundreds of years.

Hundreds of years? Really? Beats me!

[theavonlady 2]

Israel?s plan for expanding the segregation Zone in the West Bank

Read The FAQ.

[Acecombat 0]

2 words: UN Intervention

2 more: no justice  

LOL thats a nice dream

I am sure any intervention by UN will be veteod by our worlds 'caretaker' US.

What has Israel got to worry from the UN when its got a partner that practically veteos anything that has the word 'Israel' and 'condemn' or related to it.

[Tamme 0]

Christian Action For Israel

So now there's some kind of a christian crusade going on? I've lost my hope for peace between Israel and palestinians. It's about religion and not a simple territorial fight. But FFS please keep my religion out of it.

Crusades are over, you can keep the Holy Land if you like it so much.

EDIT: BTW that stuff has nothing to do with christianity. Since when was the UN and the chuch and the UN head secretary and the pope the same thing?

[Bernadotte 0]

The fighting will end when Israel wakes up and fights a war to the finish.

Really?  With whom should Israel fight this "war to the finish?"

[Acecombat 0]

The fighting will end when Israel wakes up and fights a war to the finish.

Really?  With whom should Israel fight this "war to the finish?"

Maybe the whole world

Since everyones against poor Israel i mean UN is arabs are Europeans are too .... and maybe some americans too so ...

[theavonlady 2]

The fighting will end when Israel wakes up and fights a war to the finish.

Really?  With whom should Israel fight this "war to the finish?"

The Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza, who declared war on Israel in October 2000.

[Bernadotte 0]

The fighting will end when Israel wakes up and fights a war to the finish.

Really?  With whom should Israel fight this "war to the finish?"

The Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza, who declared war on Israel in October 2000.

How do you intend to identify them before rounding them up and finishing them off?  I hope you don't expect them all to wear little yellow crescents on their sleeves.