European Politics Thread.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yes nationhood is really idiotic... anyone supporting the idea of nationstates should be shut up..

Besides that you quoted only the second statement and left out the first for obvious reasons as it said:

Quote[/b] ]"On June 6, Stockholm's streets will again be dominated by Swedes and not by sleazy immigrants waiting for an easy victim. On June 6, we'll take back our country,"

and you were attending to their assembly like the pics show, it only made clear to me and a lot of other forum members, who speculated about your nazi-affiliated attitude in the past, that you are indeed into it.

Now don´t come up with that "idea of nationstates" nonsense.

You were attending to a gathering of nazis who´s prominent goal was to :

"On June 6, Stockholm's streets will again be dominated by Swedes and not by sleazy immigrants waiting for an easy victim. On June 6, we'll take back our country"

as goes for the race matter that the above quote states.

Nazis are scum, I don´t mind what "indepth" thoughts they have.

Looking at the initial motivation of the Swedish flag day the upper motivations seem to be a bit of track anyway:

The day marks a celebration of Gustav Vasa's 1523 accession to the throne, which ended Danish rule, and the 1809 adoption of a new constitution, kicking off Sweden's democratic tradition.

[denoir 0]

Speaking of Nazism, Bordoy posted this a while ago:

Quote[/b] ]Islamophobia’ / Turkey Out Now That France Negates EU Constitution?

In the last several days, the EU Council of 46 concluded to establish a law that made criticizing Islam a crime throughout Europe . The Council referred to "Islamophobia" as being criminal activity.

All this was initiated by Turkey .

Turkey prides itself on being a totally secular nation, though it is in fact very much a Muslim nation. Yet it downplays its Muslim religion because of the bad press Islam is getting? Therefore, Turkey tries to have the world conclude that it is not really a rabid Islamic country; instead it is a secular country to the core.

However, obviously it is very much a Muslim power seeking to infiltrate the European Union. Already it has convinced the EU Council that to state anything critical about Islam could land one in jail or worse. Does that make Turkey a totally secular nation? Or does not that make Turkey an Islamic state seeking to overcome the world for Allah?

But now that the French have negated the EU constitution, Turkey may be in limbo.

According to The Washington Times report, "Analysts and voters said yesterday that the treaty's defeat in France had to do more with (the) potential membership for Turkey . . ."

That in itself is revealing. The defeat of the EU constitution by French voters had to do with "potential membership for Turkey "? How very, very interesting.

Then there is an awareness that Turkey in the EU is a bad thing. Then there is a fear that Turkey being a part of the EU would bring havoc to the continent? Then there is a grassroots knowledge that Turkey is in fact a prop for worldwide Muslim takeover and not just a benign nation with totally secular intentions?

Could the French negative be God’s positive in saving Europe — irreligious as it is — from the Islamic blood bath planned for all infidels? Could God be protecting the Christian community from the global rule of Muslim might? Could genuine believers’ prayers be answered by this French NO to the EU constitution?

It is all a most intriguing event that occurred within the last hours. The French may be more of a divine tool that they ever envisioned

So now it's a crime to have an opinion on things?  

I looked into it a bit further, and there is some truth to the article, but is is waay off. First of all, the Council of Europe, with its 46 members is not affiliated with the EU in any way. It's a parallel pan-European organization that has no legal power whatsoever. You can think of it as a big political think-tank, a forum for European political discussion. It is not a legal body. So what they declare and decide is in practice completely irrelevant. It is not to be confused with The Council of the European Union (commonly called "The Council"), which is a completely different thing. The latter is a group consisting of the ministers from the 25 member states.

As for the EU and anti-racism laws, there is one law on the agenda proposed by a commissioner. It's the draft framework of "Decision on Combating Racism and Xenophobia":

Quote[/b] ]

          “Article 1          

Offences concerning racism and xenophobia          

1. Each Member State shall take the measures necessary to ensure that the

 following intentional conduct is punishable:          

a) publicly inciting to discrimination, violence or hatred directed against

 a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race,

 colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin;          

b) the commission of an act referred to in point a) by public dissemination

 or distribution of tracts, pictures or other material;          

c) publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising of crimes of

 genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes as defined in Articles 6, 7

 and 8 of the Statute of the International Criminal Court, directed against a

 group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race,

 colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin […];          

d) publicly condoning, denying or grossly trivialising of the crimes

 defined in Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal

 appended to the London Agreement of 8 April 1945, directed against a group of

 persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour,

 religion, descent or national or ethnic origin. […]          

2. Any Member State may, at the time of the adoption of this Framework

 Decision by the Council, make a statement that it will make denying or grossly

 trivialising of the crimes referred to in paragraph 1c) and/or d) punishable

 only if the crimes referred to in these paragraphs have been established […]

 by a final decision of a national court of a Member State and/or an

 international court.          

3. In due time before the expiry of three years after the deadline referred

 to in Article 11(1) for implementation of this Framework Decision, the Council

 shall review paragraph 2 of this Article.†         

 

 ....

 

“(5) Racism and xenophobia constitute a threat against groups of persons

 which are target of such behaviour. It is necessary to define a common

 criminal law approach in the European Union to this phenomenon of racism and

 xenophobia in order to ensure that the same behaviour constitutes an offence

 in all Member States and that effective, proportionate and dissuasive

 penalties and sanctions are provided for natural and legal persons having

 committed or being liable for such offences.          

(5a) “Descent†refers mainly to persons or groups of persons who descend

 from persons who could be identified by certain characteristics (such as race

 or colour), but not necessarily all of these characteristics still exist. In

 spite of that, because of their descent, such persons or groups of persons may

 be subject to hatred, discrimination or violence. “Descent†does not refer to

 social origin but may, where appropriate and depending on specific national

 circumstances, refer to social status or certain conditions relating to

 property.          

(5b) “Religion†broadly refers to persons defined by reference to their

 religious convictions or beliefs.          

(5c) “Hatred†refers to hatred based on race, colour, religion, descent or

 national or ethnic origin.â€

Needless to say, it's a pretty radical suggestion. One should probably not be too worried as this is just a suggestion by a commissioner and his/her group. There are tons of suggestions and ideas that never come close to becoming law. This one will probably not even get as far as to a vote. And should it even go so far, I don't think there is a chance in hell the European Parliament would support such a censorship clause. Most likely however, it will be cut to pieces by the Commission itself, and will never become a parliamentary motion.

[Balschoiw 0]

I guess there should be no need for a fixed term of what is racism or not. Every responsible citizen of the EU or elsewhere should fight racism where it shows up. Either in a pub, on the streets or within his family. To shut up is to silently support it.

I don´t accept the radical left either. Both extremist tendencies are stupid and are not tolerated by me.

As you can´t debate with most of the symphatisants of both lines as they just rant some slogans they heard somewhere and try to cover up their funny hate against this and that with noble motivations you can talk them into ground but it won´t help much as they are most of the times just too stupid to understand.

I´m not saying that violence against them is the solution but a month or two in prison for spreading nazi ideology can´t hurt...

[denoir 0]

I think it is a very dangerous path when a government decides what the citizens can say or not. You risk taking another step and another and you end up with McCarthyism.

It can become very arbitrary what you choose to ban.

[Donnervogel 0]

Back to Switzerland and the Schengen/Dublin referendum.

I have to say thanks many time to the EU foreign affairs secretary (Benita Ferrero-Waldner?) for making it very unlikely that any Schengen/Dublin takes effect. Even though she said what I suspected (Schnegen/Dublin will only take effect if we also approve the threaty that extends person freedom of movement on all 25 EU members) she said it in a way that toally plays into the hands of the right wing propagandists. Here it's totally easy for the anti EU fraction to display it as if the EU is blackmailing us. Which is of course seen as foreign intervention into internal affairs. But that's what we absolutly needed to prevent. Because everyone knows how any nation reacts when it feels it's sovereignty gets bypassed. Anyway. Now I see no chance for the secound referendum to be approved. Too many people now think to "see" that the EU is patronising us and that - off course - leads to toally nationalistic and anti EU sentiment.

I don't see how we should win that referendum now because now we have no ground for factual discussion. Now it's only about frightening the people so they say no.

Oh god... that's what happens when people that have no idea how to handle referendums intervene into such affairs.

[denoir 0]

It *is* blackmail. The thing is, put in an undiplomatic manner, Switzerland is irrelevant to the EU. There's no need to be nice, the Union can basically impose whatever rules it wants and Switzerland can take it or leave it. The only ones it will really affect is the Swiss.

And that's the problem with staying outside. Switzerland for instance had no say in the writing of the Schengen treaty. Had you been involved in the European project, you would have had your voice. Now you are on the outside and too small to make a difference.

Anyway, you should probably do as the treaty says - remove your border controls. In terms of immigration, it won't make any difference. In terms of trade and transport, it will simplify things. And it's not like your neighbours are planning to invade you any time soon, right?

Edit: Actually, to be fair, you did make a difference to the EU this week. After the double rejection of the constitution it was nice with a "yes" for closer European cooperation.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think it is a very dangerous path when a government decides what the citizens can say or not. You risk taking another step and another and you end up with McCarthyism.

It can become very arbitrary what you choose to ban.

Yep, that´s why I say it should be an obligation for every citizen to fight such trends and movements where he lives. Be it next door or on the road. For sure there needs to be a legal background that stops politcal extremists recruiting at schools and such and there also should be hard prison terms who those who commit crimes as a result of nazi-ideas.

We have a rather strict law against nazis in germany. If it would be applied more often it wouldn´t hurt.

We had the best example in the world that nazi-ideology is bullshit in our own country. 6 million people were killed because of nazi-ideas. It surprises me that we see a trend towards it worldwide again. Be it the US , the UK, the Netherlands, Belgium, Russia, the scandinavian countires...Hell even in Africa there is nazism. Don´t people get that such ideology is contra-human ?

Or do they need such ideology to give their miserable life an attitude ?

I´m so fed of that.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think it is a very dangerous path when a government decides what the citizens can say or not. You risk taking another step and another and you end up with McCarthyism.

It can become very arbitrary what you choose to ban.

Yep, that´s why I say it should be an obligation for every citizen to fight such trends and movements where he lives. Be it next door or on the road.

You mean a report-your-neighbour scheme Å• la Stasi?

Quote[/b] ]For sure there needs to be a legal background that stops politcal extremists recruiting at schools and such and there also should be hard prison terms who those who commit crimes as a result of nazi-ideas.

I think the prison terms should be equal for equal crimes. If you kill a man because of your nazi convictions or if you kill a man because you don't like his nazi convistions is all the same to me.

Quote[/b] ]We have a rather strict law against nazis in germany. If it would be applied more often it wouldn´t hurt.

We had the best example in the world that nazi-ideology is bullshit in our own country. 6 million people were killed because of nazi-ideas. It surprises me that we see a trend towards it worldwide again. Be it the US , the UK, the Netherlands, Belgium, Russia, the scandinavian countires...Hell even in Africa there is nazism. Don´t people get that such ideology is contra-human ?

I guess Germany has a unique perspective on it. I'm however for lettling them speak whatever crap they want. People should be informed what the Nazis did. What they are saying today doesn't exactly appeal to the average citizen. Neo-nazis are brutes, like footbal hooligans and should IMO be treated exactly as such. When they break the law, they should be prosecuted as any other criminals.

The more civilized right wing populists are a much greater threat in my opinion.

[iNeo 0]

You were attending to a gathering of nazis who´s prominent goal was to :

"On June 6, Stockholm's streets will again be dominated by Swedes and not by sleazy immigrants waiting for an easy victim. On June 6, we'll take back our country"

Like I said, the march was for anyone who wanted to show disconent over today's situation. There were a lot of nationalists but also of course nazis there. Marching in the train doesn't make you a nazi, I do agree with much of their thoughts since I'm a nationalist but not all of it. I don't even know exactly what they want, especially since their oppinions aren't the exact same for everyone, but I hope and think they don't want for example a new holocaust etc. The quote you're citing is one from one single organization, the march was set up by several organizations. On their common site for the event they described the march as cutting across party lines, and that participating is not the same as confessing to any specific political party line, except that you must support the Swedes' right to their own country. Besides, I was walking next to the train taking pictures (but I could easily walk in it). Maybe you and many with you need to stop thinking nationalism is the same as nazism, and thinking nazism is the same as nazi-Germany. All in all, I walked next to a nationalistic march and you call me not only nazi scum but also idiot - well, fuck you.

[Necromancer- 0]

tsk tsk.. please don't flame iNeo and Balschoiw..

In my opinion, there is a difference between nationalism and nazi's.

Nationalism is more like loving your own country and that you are worried about 'foreign' influences...

Nazism is believing in the idea that your believes are superior to the world and that you try to enforce them to people who don't believe in it.

As for Neo-Nazi's..

The intellect of Neo-Nazi's don't even match the nazi's of WW2.. They're so bloody stupid.

[GoOB 0]

The more civilized right wing populists are a much greater threat in my opinion.

In the long run, oh yes indeed. But having lots of friends with foreign descent gives you quite alot of wakeup calls to the threat that neo-nazism/racism poses to the people in general, and to the democracy that we have established. Having to fear getting beat up because of your skintone, or for wearing a T-shirt with Che Guevara on it (why someone would do that is beyond me) is not acceptable. And sometimes I feel that the only way to counterattack that form of opression is to fight back, even though it only breeds more hate and so on and so on.

I agree that far-left groups such as ANTIFA are just as bad for democracy and society in general, but I still think that the ideals they promote are far more sound than the ones that neo-nazis stand for.

ANTIFA does some very unjustified things, and are just as bullheaded as the nazis are, sometimes even worse. Beating up anyone who looks remotley like a nazi, leaving them for dead on the streets. But at least the ideal is there, that they won't accept the streets of our country being filled with hate between skintones and different cultural heritages.

[Bordoy 0]

Quote[/b] ]or for wearing a T-shirt with Che Guevara on it (why someone would do that is beyond me) is not acceptable

So next time i see someone, call them a "socialist pig"?

Ther are some crazy far-left groups in the UK aswell. eg, "The Communist League", like they would get votes

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]So next time i see someone, call them a "socialist pig"?

No, call them an hypocrite if they are protesting in a anti-war march...

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Marching in the train doesn't make you a nazi

For sure it does.

Quote[/b] ]The quote you're citing is one from one single organization, the march was set up by several organizations.

The quote is from the internet invitation to the march.

Quote[/b] ]All in all, I walked next to a nationalistic march and you call me not only nazi scum but also idiot - well, fuck you.

First of all this is not true as I wrote:

Quote[/b] ]Nazis are scum, I don´t mind what "indepth" thoughts they have.

So either you declared yourself a Nazi now as you take this on you, or you can´t transport content from one page to another.

Quote[/b] ]well, fuck you

Hehe.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

It *is* blackmail. The thing is, put in an undiplomatic manner, Switzerland is irrelevant to the EU. There's no need to be nice, the Union can basically impose whatever rules it wants and Switzerland can take it or leave it. The only ones it will really affect is the Swiss.

And that's the problem with staying outside. Switzerland for instance had no say in the writing of the Schengen treaty. Had you been involved in the European project, you would have had your voice. Now you are on the outside and too small to make a difference.

Anyway, you should probably do as the treaty says - remove your border controls. In terms of immigration, it won't make any difference. In terms of trade and transport, it will simplify things. And it's not like your neighbours are planning to invade you any time soon, right?

Edit: Actually, to be fair, you did make a difference to the EU this week. After the double rejection of the constitution it was nice with a "yes" for closer European cooperation.

Sorry, just had to mention that!  

Switzerland is the only country I dont mind not joining the EU. Switzerland is and always will stay Switzerland and it deserves to have this special status! If I would have a working permit for that country I would go and stay there for the rest of my life and forget about the EU, the US and all the rest of the political turbulent topics.

Not a qualified comment, but still, I couldnt resist!

[GoOB 0]

Quote[/b] ]or for wearing a T-shirt with Che Guevara on it (why someone would do that is beyond me) is not acceptable

So next time i see someone, call them a "socialist pig"?

No - You let them wear their T-shirt even though it is quite stupid to do so. And since everyone has the right to express their views, aslong as they don't do it violently? :P

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

there is a difference between "expressing your views" and "spreading".

[simba 0]

Quote[/b] ]Quote (Bordoy @ June 08 2005,01:14)

Quote

or for wearing a T-shirt with Che Guevara on it (why someone would do that is beyond me) is not acceptable

So next time i see someone, call them a "socialist pig"?

No - You let them wear their T-shirt even though it is quite stupid to do so. And since everyone has the right to express their views, aslong as they don't do it violently? :P

what's the point of this , I've heard many critics about cuba , but not much about the che , could you clarify ??

In fact the people who wear those t-shirts most of time don't know what this is all about .

And about Cuba and EU , Castro declared not so long ago that he considers EU as libertycide regime , true or false ?

[Supah 0]

Quote[/b] ]Quote (Bordoy @ June 08 2005,01:14)

Quote

or for wearing a T-shirt with Che Guevara on it (why someone would do that is beyond me) is not acceptable

So next time i see someone, call them a "socialist pig"?

No - You let them wear their T-shirt even though it is quite stupid to do so. And since everyone has the right to express their views, aslong as they don't do it violently? :P

what's the point of this , I've heard many critics about cuba , but not much about the che , could you clarify ??

In fact the people who wear those t-shirts most of time don't know what this is all about .

And about Cuba and EU , Castro declared not so long ago that he considers EU as libertycide regime , true or false ?

Yeah I would like to hear your explanation of Che's wrong doings? And now to figure out why my cat simba is posting here

[Ares1978 0]

Quote[/b] ]Marching in the train doesn't make you a nazi

For sure it does.

I'm just curious, but how does this work exactly?

[Bordoy 0]

Alright lads, calm down i was joking.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm just curious, but how does this work exactly?

Do I have to explain the basics of demonstrating to you ?

[Ares1978 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm just curious, but how does this work exactly?

Do I have to explain the basics of demonstrating to you ?  

No, just the basics of how your ideologies become identical to those of people you walk with.

If you mean that people watching incorrectly assume that he is a nazi, that's a different matter. But that doesn't make him a nazi either.

[Balschoiw 0]

I guess it´s best to let himself speak:

Quote[/b] ]I do agree with much of their thoughts since I'm a nationalist but not all of it.

Also, participating in a nazi demo does indeed throw a nazi light on you.

Taking this into the context of his previous posts about ideology and nation in general, foreigners in his country and all that there is little space to move in.

Anyway, I think every word lost on nazi idiots is a word too much and it only pestilates the air in here, so I will leave it up to the individual what to make of it.

I know where I stand and I hope others know that aswell.

[Bordoy 0]

Nazi means "Member of the Nationlist Socialist Party".