USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Palin didnt even have a passport untill recently. You are not seriously implying that she has "the same" amount of foreign experiences as Obama?

Experience in foreign affairs starts with traveling when you are young and learning to interact with other cultures. That was what Bush couldnt offer and neither will Palin.

Obamas interaction with the outside world started when he was dragged to Jakarta for something like 4 years and went to different schools with different backgrounds. In my eyes a very important precondition to become cosmopolitan.

But as we know, among conservative voters you are unpatriotic and a terrorist-sympathiser if you dare to leave the country to study in Indonesia. Therefore seven out of ten comedians want McCain and Palin to be elected in November

[scubaman3D 0]

Well then he should be well versed in Islam and Indonesian culture.

Definitely a plus for a US president...

[-Snafu- 78]

You are throwing away all the accomplishments she made as a politician because of a couple of video clips.  It just seems shallow to me.

What were these accomplishments?

If you really want to know, search. Otherwise, don't waste my time asking questions like this, as if you are going to stump me.

Poor attitude there Scubaman3D.

"She has lots of accomplishments but I am not going to tell you." (Paraphrased)

I mean, WTF? We don't live in the US (ch_123's Irish I believe) so don't really get all the details and the US media is pretty sensationalist. So it would be nice to get some straight answers from our American friends.

[scubaman3D 0]

"She has lots of accomplishments but I am not going to tell you." (Paraphrased)

Now you're just egging me on.  

If you must know why I said that, it didn't seem to me that he really wanted to know what they were. He is simply questioning my assertion that she has made accomplishments.

So I'll turn around and ask:

If you are holding her to those standards, tell me what are Obama's accomplishments?  I assert he doesn't have any.

Now explain to me what his accomplishments are.

I'm not likely to respond once I start basically getting sandbagged like I am now.  Its basically me verses everybody at this point - which is simply too much to deal with.

I'm not Spokesperson

and like froggy said, most of you can't vote in the US so whether you agree with me or not, it ultimately doesn't matter.

So go ahead and beat up on my and my opinions. I know for most, perception is reality.

But for people who admit they don't know much about American domestic politics to jump in on this discussion and judge my views, it appears to be obtuse.

I know very little about UK domestic politics and would probably never engage in a debate with somebody about it for that reason.

[-Snafu- 78]

I'm not egging you on. I am 100% serious.

I think you are reading too much into it. It seemed like a genuine question to me (pro's and con's of forums). It wouldn't hurt to answer it anyway.

Quote[/b] ]I know very little about UK domestic politics and would probably never engage in a debate with somebody about it for that reason.

It was a question. No opinions or judgement. ch_123 comes from the ROI not NI.

If you don't want to answer it then fair do's.

[Panda-PL- 0]

You are not seriously implying that she has "the same" amount of foreign experiences as Obama?

Not to spoilt it for you.

Perhabs Obama's visit in Germany did provide ammunition for his supporters but from european perspective it looked like a cheap shot at PR.

People who cheered for Obama in Berlin were not really supporting him as a candidate, they were merely anti-Bush germans with "enemy of my enemy" attitude.

His speech was ridiculous and attempts to blend in with Berlin Wall era speech plain offending example of his ignorance of its historical context.

Now if our current president went to US and tried to copy-cat Lech Walesa's "we, the nation" speech, would you not call it absurd? That was my perception.

I could have believed Obama had some foreign experience. To say he had vast experience with Europe would have been a stretch. But his Berlin visit proved he has no idea about modern history of europe. This behaviour simply proved it.

[Panda-PL- 0]

You are not seriously implying that she has "the same" amount of foreign experiences as Obama?

Not to spoilt it for you.

Perhabs Obama's visit in Germany did provide ammunition for his supporters but from european perspective it looked like a cheap shot at PR.

People who cheered for Obama in Berlin were not really supporting him as a candidate, they were merely anti-Bush germans with "enemy of my enemy" attitude.

His speech was ridiculous and attempts to blend in with Berlin Wall era speech plain offending example of his ignorance of its historical context. And perhabs simply lack of respect for freedom fighters of the times.

Now if our current president went to US and tried to copy-cat Lech Walesa's "we, the nation" speech, would you not call it childish? That was my perception.

I could have believed Obama had some foreign experience. To say he had vast experience with Europe would have been a stretch. But his Berlin visit proved he has no idea about modern history of europe. This behaviour simply proved it.

[TWCRASH 0]

Palin didnt even have a passport untill recently. You are not seriously implying that she has "the same" amount of foreign experiences as Obama?

Experience in foreign affairs starts with traveling when you are young and learning to interact with other cultures. That was what Bush couldnt offer and neither will Palin.

Obamas interaction with the outside world started when he was dragged to Jakarta for something like 4 years and went to different schools with different backgrounds. In my eyes a very important precondition to become cosmopolitan.

But as we know, among conservative voters you are unpatriotic and a terrorist-sympathiser if you dare to leave the country to study in Indonesia. Therefore seven out of ten comedians want McCain and Palin to be elected in November

Thats what I am saying exactly since Obama has none what so ever. If it wasn't for his 300+ advisors he wouldn't have an answer for anything. Obama stated and I quote "Iran is a little nothing country. They aren't a threat. They aren't Russia" then within 2 weeks turned around and stated "Iran is a serious terrorist and nuclear threat to the US and Isreal" so which is it? And that is sound Foreign policy? And for all its worth why are you all so worried about the VP? It isnt Obama Vs Palin. I have never seen so many people debating the VP of a candidate and I have lived thru more than my share of elections.

[scubaman3D 0]

I agree with Panda, he was pandering to Europeans so that he could say "See, they like me and I will be able to improve relations between the US and the rest of the world."

Which for the people here, "the rest of the world" really means "Europe".

You know, and since that's already been brought up a couple times, I have something to say about it too.

A rant, if you will

It irks me to see nothing but negative reporting. I'd love if, for 1 year, the US stopped sending all forms of aid overseas. We could call it "a year without the US". People would be begging for our money and help. Begging.

Last year, alone, we paid out ~ $21,197,000,000 in aid dollars. Nearly twice as much as next country on the chart I saw. You know, some of that was my money and I get tired of people kicking the crap out of America for everything.

If everybody hates us sooo much - if relations are sooo bad, whey do they take our money? My money?

I'd gladly like it back. I'm saving to buy a house and I have to pay 20something% tax to the fed.

[TWCRASH 0]

I agree with Panda, he was pandering to Europeans so that he could say "See, they like me and I will be able to improve relations between the US and the rest of the world."

Which for the people here, "the rest of the world" really means "Europe".

You know, and since that's already been brought up a couple times, I have something to say about it too.

A rant, if you will

It irks me to see nothing but negative reporting. I'd love if, for 1 year, the US stopped sending all forms of aid overseas. We could call it "a year without the US".  People would be begging for our money and help. Begging.  

Last year, alone, we paid out ~ $21,197,000,000 in aid dollars. Nearly twice as much as next country on the chart I saw. You know, some of that was my money and I get tired of people kicking the crap out of America for everything.

If everybody hates us sooo much - if relations are sooo bad, whey do they take our money? My money?

I'd gladly like it back. I'm saving to buy a house and I have to pay 20something% tax to the fed.

20% wow your getting off easy lol. I agree tho I wish we would stop sending out aid and also stop buying products from countries that hate us. Valenzeula, China, All of the middle east countries that most of our textiles come from. Yeah let's see who wants us back after all that. I get sick of people trashing our country. I am a proud American with all her faults she is the greatest country to live in.

[-Snafu- 78]

Quote[/b] ]Last year, alone, we paid out ~ $21,197,000,000 in aid dollars. Nearly twice as much as next country on the chart I saw. You know, some of that was my money and I get tired of people kicking the crap out of America for everything.

Which is nice but you are not the most generous in the world. Generosity is measured in other terms, GDP I think. Some of the countries that dislike the US have some good reasons. I mean just look at the support for the corrupt South Vietnam, the incredibly poor track record in South America to name a couple.

Quote[/b] ]I am a proud American with all her faults she is the greatest country to live in.

This is the other reason. Yeah! Ignorance ftw! You have not even lived in another country, probably never even visited one and you make a fcuking claim like this! And you wonder why people take the mick? Jesus H Christ.

[scubaman3D 0]

oh snafu, snafu, snafu, you're right...we're not generous enough.

If my friend was in a real bad way and needed a car, what your doing is basically the following:

"What, you only gave me a Honda Civic, when you could have afforded to buy me a Ferrari? I hate you, you're not generous"

I'd slap my ungrateful friend across the head if he said something this stupid and take back the car.

@twcrash

I'm in the 25% taxation bracket. So I guess that makes me "middle class".  

But as you know, thats just the fed, and remember in I live in NY - so they get theirs too, at every corner.

[-Snafu- 78]

oh snafu, snafu, snafu, you're right...we're not generous enough.

If my friend was in a real bad way and needed a car, what your doing is basically the following:

"What, you only gave me a Honda Civic, when you could have afforded to buy me a Ferrari?  I hate you, you're not generous"

I'd slap my ungrateful friend across the head if he said something this stupid and take back the car.

@twcrash

I'm in the 25% taxation bracket. So I guess that makes me "middle class".  

But as you know, thats just the fed, and remember in I live in NY - so they get theirs too, at every corner.

No you are not generous enough. If smaller countries, a lot smaller countries, can give a larger % of their GDP towards aid, then the US isn't being generous enough.

Quote[/b] ]If my friend was in a real bad way and needed a car, what your doing is basically the following:

"What, you only gave me a Honda Civic, when you could have afforded to buy me a Ferrari?  I hate you, you're not generous"

I'd slap my ungrateful friend across the head if he said something this stupid and take back the car.

What a great example, because famine and aids are comparable to loaning a car for a while. You should quit being a scientist and be a political commentator!

[scubaman3D 0]

And maybe you should quit being a jackass, coming at me with straw man arguments.

You're intentionally misinterpreting my point. What you're saying is "even though you give way more than any other country in the world, it doesn't matter because you're not giving enough."

Shall we take it back?

Or, am I to suppose you are more qualified than I am to hold opinions about politics. See, this is the elitist bull that I hate so much.

[-Snafu- 78]

And maybe you should quit being a jackass, coming at me with straw man arguments.

You're intentionally misinterpreting my point. What you're saying is "even though you give way more than any other country in the world, it doesn't matter because you're not giving enough."

Shall we take it back?

Or, am I to suppose you are more qualified than I am to hold opinions about politics. See, this is the elitist bull that I hate so much.

Of course, because you are so nice yourself:

Quote[/b] ]oh snafu, snafu, snafu, you're right...we're not generous enough.

I didn't say any of those words. You said you gave a lot, which you do, but pointed out you are not the only country that gives and not always the most generous. Could you be more generous and give more? Hell yes. That goes for a lot of Western nations.

Quote[/b] ]Or, am I to suppose you are more qualified than I am to hold opinions about politics. See, this is the elitist bull that I hate so much.

Hyperbole. To show how ridiculous that example was.

[scubaman3D 0]

Has nothing to do with "niceness".

Its stubbornness.

I'm actually really nice if you knew me personally, outside of politics.

Everybody's got buttons that are better off not pushed and for me, its politics

edit: I have to apologize...because what set me off on that last comment was something I misread in your previous post to me.

I'm sincerely sorry for that.

[gsleighter 0]

This is getting ugly, so in the interest of fairness, here's two links with details of Palin's and Obama's accomplishments.

Palin -

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2073551/posts

Obama -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss....4578207

Both compared -

http://www.oregonlive.com/politic....ed.html

Now, this was just a quick search in Google, more detailed information would be available to those who would do further research on their own, but at least now instead of calling each other out on this, we can click some links.

[chops 111]

If you paid attention you would have gotten the jist of it.

I was paying attention and I did get the jist. She's a simple little fish in a little pond and as I read somewhere, 'looked liked a high school kid trying to bullshit her way through a book report', in the very few interviews she's given on TV. This at a time when she should be grasping every opportunity to put her plans, policies and credentials out there for the public to see.

I don't know if I'll be able to sleep the night before the Vice Presidential debate, poor little Palin is going to get mounted (on a wall) like a dead moose. I'd even venture to say Mcain might change his running mate after this.

All of this is not to say Obama is the saviour, he's a gobshite without substance.

I used to be appalled at the thought of only 50% of US citizens turning out to vote, having paid more attention to this election, I can see why they stay home.

Some interesting stats on foreign aid. Netherlands 1st, USA 14th, Japan last in 22nd place.

[-Snafu- 78]

This is getting ugly, so in the interest of fairness, here's two links with details of Palin's and Obama's accomplishments.

Palin -

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2073551/posts

Obama -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss....4578207

Both compared -

http://www.oregonlive.com/politic....ed.html

Now, this was just a quick search in Google, more detailed information would be available to those who would do further research on their own, but at least now instead of calling each other out on this, we can click some links.

Nice find there, thanks.

@ Chops

Thanks for those statistics.

Another thing about aid is that it's usually given with conditions. For example say Sudan is given x amount of dollars by y country. That country can say that you can use this money to build some factories. But these factories must be built by a company from our country. Thus benefiting the donor nation. Just because you see that the US, or any other developed nation, giving loads of cash as aid does not mean they are saints. Yes it does good but not all the time.

[Panda-PL- 0]

Two words: Marchall Plan.

If it wasn't for the USA the entire Europe would look like the territory of former Eastern Germany.

If you're wondering where do all those immigrants come from that are better qualiffied and can be hired for much less - it's from the countries that did not benefit from Marshall Plan.

Surprisingly Netherlands were one of top beneficients.

Just like with alleged "injustice" of EU: you guys are merely returning the favor while US never needed Europe for nothing and never took any aid. Apart from maybe the independence war lol.

If you guys want to talk about who is better at foreign aid I propose yoiu first return the aid you have received. Then maybe we could ask GErmany for WW2 and WW1 retributions they were relived from...

But I agree that you should also look at how the aid is being used.

Giving goods to countries that will simply steal them allong the distribution chain is pointless.

If there were no conditions attached to the deal the regimes would simply put their hands on the cash, one way or another.

I cannot imagien giving aid to a starving country just to discover they sold it to buy tanks.

[chops 111]

-snafu-, I think it's called 'tied aid' what you're talking about there. Japan scores very lowly on that index I linked to because of it.

Incidently, they have just helped Eritrea sign up to the International Whaling Commission, having never caught a whale in the existence of that country. There are a number of new countries now in the IWC, mostly third world, who's governments all have new fleets of Toyotas, thanks to uncle Hiroshi. Curiously all these countries seem to vote with Japan.

It always strikes me as odd how a lot of US Americans can complain about the bad wrap the US gets, then come out with "We're the best!" in the next breath and not see the link between the two.

All the studies of human development, freedom and diversity of the press, % of population in prison, life expectancy, % of doctors, literacy etc etc etc, it seems nearly always Scandinavian countries make up the top three or four.

For fuck sake, life expectancy and literacy is higher in shitty Cuba for ethnic Africans, than in the US.

The other side of the coin being the simplistic 'fuck the Yanks' attitude that gets around from people who drive Fords, eat McDonalds and love Gangsta rap.

[-Snafu- 78]

@ Oct. 01 2008,17:31)]Two words: Marchall Plan.

If it wasn't for the USA the entire Europe would look like the territory of former Eastern Germany.

If you're wondering where do all those immigrants come from that are better qualiffied and can be hired for much less - it's from the countries that did not benefit from Marshall Plan.

Surprisingly Netherlands were one of top beneficients.

That's not necessarily true. The economies of the European nations were well on the way to recovery before the ERP was brought in. Some historians have argued that the European nations would have recovered without it while some have argued it speeded up recovery.

The only two countries that had a serious communist threat was France and Italy. Most countries had made a remarkable recovery, even France had made a decent recovery by 1946. In addition British national income had increased from 4,671 million GBP in 1938 to 7,974 GBP in 1946: a recovery of 70%. German industrial growth was incredibly rapid: in the 1st quarter of 1946 German industrial production was 41 which then increased to 50 in the 4th quarter.

Also part of the ERP was that the recipients had to buy American goods so some of the money went back to the USA. In my opinion the US motives for the ERP were humanitarian only to an extent. The other part was security. A strong Western Europe was key to US security, outlined in George Kennan's 'Long Telegram'.

Quote[/b] ]But I agree that you should also look at how the aid is being used.

Giving goods to countries that will simply steal them allong the distribution chain is pointless.

If there were no conditions attached to the deal the regimes would simply put their hands on the cash, one way or another.

There should be some oversight. But conditions like building a hotel using a company from the donor country is the wrong way.

@ Chops

Quote[/b] ]-snafu-, I think it's called 'tied aid' what you're talking about there.

Aye, that's the one. Having a hard time remembering all this aid stuff as I did it back in my 2nd year of Secondary school.

[scubaman3D 0]

@ Oct. 01 2008,18:31)]I cannot imagien giving aid to a starving country just to discover they sold it to buy tanks.

This exact thing is taking place in North Korea.

The gobs of food we send there is being sold to the people, instead of given, or it is being used to feed the military. There was some undercover journalist who had sneaked across the border from china to video tape this happening and then back across to China.

I think I saw it in a documentary on National Geographic last year.

If we protest and say that we are going to stop sending aid, they launch a missile or detonate a nuclear bomb or threaten to invade the south.

Its basically blackmail and yeah, as an American who has to pay for that food that is being used to strengthen this madman Kim, it is maddening.

-snafu-

Are you saying that Europe would have been fine if the US just up and left after WWII and didn't help?

You know...that is a very difficult position to defend. I know you don't like the US but this is extreme.

[-Snafu- 78]

-snafu-

Are you saying that Europe would have been fine if the US just up and left after WWII and didn't help?

You know...that is a very difficult position to defend. I know you don't like the US but this is extreme.

No, I am not saying that at all. Just pointing out that European economic recovery had already begun before the ERP was introduced. As a result of this some historians have argued that Europe could have recovered without it.

Quote[/b] ]You know...that is a very difficult position to defend. I know you don't like the US but this is extreme.

If I didn't like the US I wouldn't go there at all! I also have family there!

[NoRailgunner 0]

scubaman3D everybody gets mad if the help, aid and support get lost in government racketeering, Mafia, etc.

I wouldnt judge peoples helpfulness by nation and pinpoint "Who is the best" thing only by statistics. That would lack anything thats human.

Beside that did anyone get info what candidates say about Guantanamo Bay, the "almighty" Homeland Security and informations stored on ID Cards?