Enthusiasts Eye Assault Rifles as Ban Nears End

[RooK 0]

The last murder with a full automatic weapon was commited by a police officer, in the 70s, I think.

As if! I would need some serious proof to believe that one.

I have personally seen tapes with fully automatic shotouts where people have died as a result of, and they were not from the 70's... hmmm

funny

It should have said: Last murder with a legally owned automatic weapon. Illegal full-auto weapons have been used in crime. The one your thinking of is probably the North Hollywood Shootout. Their full-auto AKs were illegal and smuggled in from Mexico.

As a side note, full-auto guns are still legal. They're just extremely expensive. Laws regulating them: NFA 1934, FOPA Amendment 1986. The first registered them, the latter banned future productions. All full-auto rifles registered prior to '86 were grandfathered and are still legal to own. Suppressors are also legal in the US.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Suppressors are also legal in the US.

Of course, there's a crapload of paperwork and at least 1000 dollars involved in purchasing one .

[RooK 0]

Crap load of paperwork? Go to a class 3 dealer, buy a suppressor ($200-600). You then fill out Form 4s (I believe) in duplicate, duplicate fingerprint cards, passport photos, and have a CLEO sign off on it. Then send the paperwork with a $200 check to the ATF. Wait 30-90 days for approval and you can then pickup the suppressor and use it.

Price range: $400-800 tops.

[BoweryBaker 0]

Either way an assault weapons ban won't hurt much. Who needs an assault weapon in America anyways? Unless you're absolutely sure the local gang is targeting you, coming to kill you and police wont help you. If that is the case you should be okay with just a pistol and a sh*tload of clips. You don't need a thirty round mag and full auto fire. If your situation is that bad you really need a vest and a concealable firearm. Therefore this ban hurts nothing. That's how i'd choose if i was president. I'd reinvigorate the ban but make it for good. I do feel that in a controlled setting they should be allowed to be used. Gun demonstrations n stuff.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Crap load of paperwork?  Go to a class 3 dealer, buy a suppressor ($200-600).  You then fill out Form 4s (I believe) in duplicate, duplicate fingerprint cards, passport photos, and have a CLEO sign off on it.  Then send the paperwork with a $200 check to the ATF.  Wait 30-90 days for approval and you can then pickup the suppressor and use it.

Price range: $400-800 tops.

Well, that all depends on whether you want a cheap suppressor or a good suppressor. Plus I live in a state with more restrictive gun laws.

Quote[/b] ]You don't need a thirty round mag and full auto fire.

None of the weapons prohibited by the ban could fire on full automatic.

[BoweryBaker 0]

m21man, from what i heard, this is an assault weapons ban. That means fully auto guns, and three round burst guns like m16s and aks. I know you can get an ak single fire from the pawn shop but you can't get a fully auto one, because that is considered an assault weapon. Another point id like to make is on the news they say "certain weapons were banned under the law including" and they almost always said AK and M16. They didn't say nothing about glock. Nothing about springfield armory.

[bn880 5]

The last murder with a full automatic weapon was commited by a police officer, in the 70s, I think.

As if! I would need some serious proof to believe that one.

I have personally seen tapes with fully automatic shotouts where people have died as a result of, and they were not from the 70's... hmmm

funny

It should have said: Last murder with a legally owned automatic weapon. Illegal full-auto weapons have been used in crime. The one your thinking of is probably the North Hollywood Shootout. Their full-auto AKs were illegal and smuggled in from Mexico.

As a side note, full-auto guns are still legal. They're just extremely expensive. Laws regulating them: NFA 1934, FOPA Amendment 1986. The first registered them, the latter banned future productions. All full-auto rifles registered prior to '86 were grandfathered and are still legal to own. Suppressors are also legal in the US.

Okay, so then, unless you are arguing FOR the ban, not a good thing for your argument.

[bn880 5]

There is no "experience" to prove assault weapons cause a crime epidemic..

You don't trust people with guns, because they allegedly use them to commit murder (let me remind you that this is illegal), but you trust them to not commit a much less illegal act in purchasing an illegal firearm.

Maybe you will say that if they are restricted, it will be much harder for the common man to get hold of them. Well, what about marijuana?

Actually I think there is plenty where assault weapons are available easily, remember there is a world outside USA.

The actual point is, once violent crimes do occur, how often will they become deadly, or to what extent will people be injured in them.

[DanAK47 1]

I don't think there are a lot of spree killers around. I would not say that murders involving one person are because the killer was limited by firepower.

With the firepower advantages of assault weapons come disadvantages which may rule them out for criminals.

[ralphwiggum 6]

I've talked to some cops and they agree that "cop organizations" are not for cops at all.

They scoff when people say that all cops are for the AWB. Most of them like assault weapons.

not all of them hate AWB. but most would prefer not getting chances of themselves getting caught at the other end of barrel.

last night, LA Sherriffs Commisioner Lee Baca said 'President Bush needs to support renewal. You are either with us or against us.'

Quote[/b] ]Full auto weapons are illegal.

class 3 is legal if you have license and pay 2 $250 tax stamps.

Quote[/b] ]The deadliness of assault weapons is somewhat exaggerated with reguards to the deadliness of other, more "humble" weapons.. If you truly want to reduce crime you are going in the wrong direction. Studies show that most crimes are commited with illegally purchased revolvers.. Ban them if you care about the facts and not hypothetical situations..

all those illegal revolvers were once legal.

Show me what was effective about the AWB, as put into law... Fact is, none of it was. There were three parts to this ban: Specific Firearms, Accessories, Magazines. Let's go through each one piece by piece and show the obsurdity.

not to mention that it failed since firearms manufactures decided to cicumvent the law.

Quote[/b] ]Uses for banned weapons: Self defense, competition, hunting. Civilians, like police (who are civilians), use AWs for protection. They're ergonomic, easy to operate under stress, and offer better protection than a handgun. To add insult to injury, police run into the same problems that civilians do, to give it to one side and not the other is ignorant.

and my question is why does people need 30 round magazine for such hunting. there are no herds of coyotes attacking human species. i really don't think someone would prefer using a AR15 over a nice Mossberg 500 for home defense. for competition and hunting how about a nice 10 round magazine?

Quote[/b] ]It should have said: Last murder with a legally owned automatic weapon. Illegal full-auto weapons have been used in crime. The one your thinking of is probably the North Hollywood Shootout. Their full-auto AKs were illegal and smuggled in from Mexico.

and where does illegla weapons come from? atleast once a legal owner.

[DanAK47 1]

Legal in another country in that case. Can you be blamed if someone steals your car and thus, makes it illegal? Can the dealership? However I doubt that many revolvers were stolen and would like to find out where they came from.

Full auto weapons are ridiculously expensive here without the tax stamp. Not to mention the local sheriff has to sign for them, just like silencers.

I have a 20 round magazine for my M1A, but not because I need to spray 20 rounds anywhere. Hell I don't even load it with 20 rounds. They are GI and are more reliable than reproduction 10 round magazines. In my case they are also more ergonomic.

[RooK 0]

m21man, from what i heard, this is an assault weapons ban. That means fully auto guns, and three round burst guns like m16s and aks. I know you can get an ak single fire from the pawn shop but you can't get a fully auto one, because that is considered an assault weapon. Another point id like to make is on the news they say "certain weapons were banned under the law including" and they almost always said AK and M16. They didn't say nothing about glock. Nothing about springfield armory.

Read the law. It affected semi-auto weapons only. If you have a problem with the way they catagorized them as 'assault weapons', that's their fault. They did that to make them look evil and useless, and it has caused tons of confusion ever since such as your post.

[RooK 0]

The last murder with a full automatic weapon was commited by a police officer, in the 70s, I think.

As if! I would need some serious proof to believe that one.

I have personally seen tapes with fully automatic shotouts where people have died as a result of, and they were not from the 70's... hmmm

funny

It should have said: Last murder with a legally owned automatic weapon. Illegal full-auto weapons have been used in crime. The one your thinking of is probably the North Hollywood Shootout. Their full-auto AKs were illegal and smuggled in from Mexico.

As a side note, full-auto guns are still legal. They're just extremely expensive. Laws regulating them: NFA 1934, FOPA Amendment 1986. The first registered them, the latter banned future productions. All full-auto rifles registered prior to '86 were grandfathered and are still legal to own. Suppressors are also legal in the US.

Okay, so then, unless you are arguing FOR the ban, not a good thing for your argument.

How an I arguing for the ban? The AWB does not cover full-auto weapons. Read the legislation.

[RooK 0]

I've talked to some cops and they agree that "cop organizations" are not for cops at all.

They scoff when people say that all cops are for the AWB. Most of them like assault weapons.

not all of them hate AWB. but most would prefer not getting chances of themselves getting caught at the other end of barrel.

last night, LA Sherriffs Commisioner Lee Baca said 'President Bush needs to support renewal. You are either with us or against us.'

You'll find very quickly that the commissioners/sheriffs/etc of large democratic-based cities are the ones that support it. Talk to avergae joe-cop who has to actually patrol the streets, most of them support expiration. In small towns, many officers have to buy their own supplementary partol weapons themselves, this makes it very hard for them to obtain certain weapons they need. For future reference, my grandfather is an ex-sheriff and my uncle is a retired state trooper and ex-sheriff.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Full auto weapons are illegal.

class 3 is legal if you have license and pay 2 $250 tax stamps.

No, it's a one time, $200 tax stamp fee. But seeing that a M16 RDIAS cost $10k, that's the least of your fees.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]The deadliness of assault weapons is somewhat exaggerated with reguards to the deadliness of other, more "humble" weapons.. If you truly want to reduce crime you are going in the wrong direction. Studies show that most crimes are commited with illegally purchased revolvers.. Ban them if you care about the facts and not hypothetical situations..

all those illegal revolvers were once legal.

Eh? Revolvers? Where'd that come from? The #1 choice of criminals is cheap handguns, specifically Lorcins, Brycos and Jennings. Banning them won't do any good though, they'd just find an alternative like shotguns and 'sporting' rifles.

Quote[/b] ]

Show me what was effective about the AWB, as put into law... Fact is, none of it was. There were three parts to this ban: Specific Firearms, Accessories, Magazines. Let's go through each one piece by piece and show the obsurdity.

not to mention that it failed since firearms manufactures decided to cicumvent the law.

I assume you mean by using 'loopholes'? Fact: There is no such thing as loopholes. Something either complies with the law or not. They complied with the law, the same way car manufacturers comply with emissions laws: You adapt the best you can and continue to sell your products. If you want to blame anyone, blame the legislators... oh wait, you can't because they lost their seats in congress after they passed the law. Oops.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Uses for banned weapons: Self defense, competition, hunting. Civilians, like police (who are civilians), use AWs for protection. They're ergonomic, easy to operate under stress, and offer better protection than a handgun. To add insult to injury, police run into the same problems that civilians do, to give it to one side and not the other is ignorant.

and my question is why does people need 30 round magazine for such hunting. there are no herds of coyotes attacking human species. i really don't think someone would prefer using a AR15 over a nice Mossberg 500 for home defense. for competition and hunting how about a nice 10 round magazine?

Why do police need them? Because you never know what's going to happen. Police, who qualify with their weapons, have emptied a 17rnd magazine at a suspect and hit nothing. Adrenline and stress can have a strange side effects on the human body. Having more cartridges than needed is better than having too little and you get shot while trying to reload.

I would choose an AR-15 over a shotgun in a heartbeat. It allows me to shoot a specific area/target without worry of overspray from the shot/buckshot spread and possibly hitting someone else in a nearby room.

All competitions have different rules. Service rifle requires large capacity magazines because they're patterned after service rifles from the military. Get it? Rapid fire competitions also make use of them.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]It should have said: Last murder with a legally owned automatic weapon. Illegal full-auto weapons have been used in crime. The one your thinking of is probably the North Hollywood Shootout. Their full-auto AKs were illegal and smuggled in from Mexico.

and where does illegla weapons come from? atleast once a legal owner.

Not always. In the certain countries, arsenals aren't always as protected as they should be. Some can also be manufactured with very little tools, and have been by criminals. In Austrailia, a guy in his living room was making full-auto suppressed Owen submachineguns with very few tools. (I can find an article for this if you want it.) AKs are nothing more than bent sheetmetal and blocks of steel with very little machining. All you need to assemble one from parts is a hydraulic press (car shops use them) and a sheet metal bender (car shops, also siding/roofing). FALs are also fairly simple to make from parts.

[Pathy 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Uses for banned weapons: Self defense, competition, hunting.  Civilians, like police (who are civilians), use AWs for protection.  They're ergonomic, easy to operate under stress, and offer better protection than a handgun.  To add insult to injury, police run into the same problems that civilians do, to give it to one side and not the other is ignorant.

and my question is why does people need 30 round magazine for such hunting. there are no herds of coyotes attacking human species. i really don't think someone would prefer using a AR15 over a nice Mossberg 500 for home defense. for competition and hunting how about a nice 10 round magazine?

Why do police need them?  Because you never know what's going to happen.  Police, who qualify with their weapons, have emptied a 17rnd magazine at a suspect and hit nothing.  Adrenline and stress can have a strange side effects on the human body.  Having more cartridges than needed is better than having too little and you get shot while

Sure then give them to police, BUT, consider if a trained policeman cannot hit shit, why the hell are you going to give them to a civvy who may, as some people were arguing earlier on, be able to draw his gun and shoot at the criminals.....AT being the key word, as hes probably going to end up wounding more people by causing a shootout, than would have happened otherwise.

[Commander-598 0]

For EVERYONE's reference:

Semiautomatic Assault Weapon (SAW) Ban – Questions and Answers - ATF.gov

Changes in Federal Law As Of September 13, 2004 Relating to Semiautomatic Assault Weapons (SAWs) and Large Capacity Ammunition Feeding Devices (LCAFDs) - ATF.gov

[DanAK47 1]

Pathy, you are making a lot of assumptions about the behaviour of a shooter.

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]Pathy, you are making a lot of assumptions about the behaviour of a shooter.

That's putting it politely. 'assumptions', I'd call them wildy unfounded hysterical paranoia with a sprinkle of libel and a dash of slander.

Most of you have no clue what you're talking about. I'm saddened that you're all afraid of people like Danak47, rook, and I.

You know if you met me on the street and didn't know I owned a gun you probably would like me. As it is you live in the fear I'll blow you away if your basket ball ends up in my yard. I mean jesus I've never had some state that about my character. It's nice to know I'm in the same category as the columbine killers, simply because of a inanimate object I might own.

Saddened by it all Sputnik Monroe

[BoweryBaker 0]

Semi-auto? NOOOOOOOOOOOO! I guess the pawn shop is illegally selling those firearms then.

[RooK 0]

Semi-auto? NOOOOOOOOOOOO! I guess the pawn shop is illegally selling those firearms then.

Read the damn law, then you can come back here and make intelligent conversations/debate related to it instead of stupid assumptions and extreme sarcasm.

Got here: http://thomas.loc.gov/bss/d103query.html

Enter hr3355 in the top box, go to Text of Legislation, Click HR335.ENR, scroll to Title XI and read all of that. That is the assault weapons ban.

[RooK 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Uses for banned weapons: Self defense, competition, hunting. Civilians, like police (who are civilians), use AWs for protection. They're ergonomic, easy to operate under stress, and offer better protection than a handgun. To add insult to injury, police run into the same problems that civilians do, to give it to one side and not the other is ignorant.

and my question is why does people need 30 round magazine for such hunting. there are no herds of coyotes attacking human species. i really don't think someone would prefer using a AR15 over a nice Mossberg 500 for home defense. for competition and hunting how about a nice 10 round magazine?

Why do police need them? Because you never know what's going to happen. Police, who qualify with their weapons, have emptied a 17rnd magazine at a suspect and hit nothing. Adrenline and stress can have a strange side effects on the human body. Having more cartridges than needed is better than having too little and you get shot while

Sure then give them to police, BUT, consider if a trained policeman cannot hit shit, why the hell are you going to give them to a civvy who may, as some people were arguing earlier on, be able to draw his gun and shoot at the criminals.....AT being the key word, as hes probably going to end up wounding more people by causing a shootout, than would have happened otherwise.

Most people own firearms because they want to and take a personal interest in learning their function, use, and improving their abilities. Most police these days see it as strictly a job and aren't as skilled as the average shooter. Either way, the extra cartridges are there when you need them, once again refering back to being prepared. Whenever some dangerous event occurs, you never know what will happen. I still don't get how you think the police can have them to protect themselves, but we can't have them for our protection. It defies your own logic.

You guys do know this law expired on the midnight of the 13th right? Congress didn't renew it (it's their decision, not the Presidents) and it no longer exists. Amazingly enough, there isn't blood flowing in the streets or people selling assault weapons on street corners. Who would have guessed it would sunset without incident?

[Balschoiw 0]

As I still see a difference between policemen and civillians I cannot understand what´s the freakin deal to NOT have assault weapons. It´s bullshit to say that an assault weapon can make you safer at home. Everyone with a little basic military experience and live firefights within houses will tell you that an assault weapon is the last to use within a house.

It´s just too big. So if you want to defend your worthy house all night long and play a little boy soldier you better grab some handy piece that you can killswitch around corners without shooting the neighbours brain out.

Policemen have to use pistols and revolvers for exactly this.

In germany there was a loooong deciding process about weak bullets. A lot of people died because they stood behind or near the gangsters or whatever. They got killed because the high velocity bullets went through the gangsters without much physical effect and hit persons behind them or riquocheed into someone nearby.

That´s why the german police in the early 80´s switched from short variants of the G3 to the HK mini series.

With international followers...

All that 9 mm Submachineguns do THE perfect job for police units around the world. The units you mention here are special units for special situations like SWAT teams or SEK´s here in germany.

But what has the average US citizen to do with them ?

Does he have the same training ?

Does everyone have the same ROE´s as you ?

I remember a lot of stories where someone shot his wife dead when she returned home from Bingo because the houseowner and husband thought, she was a gangster.

Don´t you also know a lot of those stories ?

I mean , you don´t often hear such stories from germany or france or italy or spain...you hear such stories from the US.

I´m sorry but it is that way.

There may be responsible gun owners and people who do know their tool of fun, but the majority still just wants to play big gun on the backyard. That´s how it is, and you can´t tell me different.

If someone had so much fun in shooting assault rifles, why doesn´t he just join the army or national guard ?

It´s all for free there.

Edit: Extremely stupid typos and total confusion.

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]If someone had so much fun in shooting assault rifles, why doesn´t he just join the army or national guard ?

Hmm where have I heard that before?

Quote[/b] ]"Citizens who wish to use firearms should join the SS - ordinary citizens don't need guns." -Heinrich Himmler

I already posted his quote three pages ago. It frightens me how you could still echo his sentiment even after reading that. You do know who Himmler was right?

[RooK 0]

As I still see a difference between policemen and civillians I cannot understand what´s the freakin deal to NOT have assault weapons. It´s bullshit to say that an assault weapon can make you safer at home. Everyone with a little basic military experience and live firefights within houses will tell you that an assault weapon is the last to use within a house.

It´s just too big. So if you want to defend your worthy house all night long and play a little boy soldier you better grab some handy piece that you can killswitch around corners without shooting the neighbours brain out.

Policemen have to use pistols and revolvers for exactly this.

Ever heard of using short barrels and short stocks? The military M4 comes to mind when compared to the M16. Same concept. You just use a more compact version. Look at tactical shotguns compared to hunting versions, they usually have a 18.5" barrel compared to one measuring 26". But once again, it's personal choice.

Quote[/b] ]In germany there was a loooong deciding process about weak bullets. A lot of people died because they stood behind or near the gangsters or whatever. They got killed because the high velocity bullets went through the gangsters without much physical effect and hit persons behind them or riquocheed into someone nearby.

That´s why the german police in the early 80´s switched from short variants of the G3 to the HK mini series.

With international followers...

All that 9 mm Submachineguns do THE perfect job for police units around the world. The units you mention here are special units for special situations like SWAT teams or SEK´s here in germany.

They could have done the same thing by switching bullet designs. A good example is Hornady TAP, which uses a frangible bullet that prevents over-penetration. A 9mm using ball ammo can easily penetrate people and go on to cause severe damage. Ask the woman up in NY that had a stray 9mm from an NYPD gun take her eye out due to over-penetration. They changed to hollowpoints soon afterwards.

Quote[/b] ]But what has the average US citizen to do with them ?

Does he have the same training ?

Does everyone have the same ROE´s as you ?

I remember a lot of stories where someone shot his wife dead when she returned home from Bingo because the houseowner and husband thought, she was a gangster.

Don´t you also know a lot of those stories ?

Yes, and they will pay for their stupidity/mistakes with jail time or similar punishments and not being allowed to own firearms anymore. Punish those who violate the law, not the innocent.

Quote[/b] ]I mean , you don´t often hear such stories from germany or france or italy or spain...you hear such stories from the US.

I´m sorry but it is that way.

No, but blaming it on a firearm is a pretty baseless excuse as well. I know people in some of those places can own firearms, the difference between uses pertains to local laws and mentalities, not the firearm itself. I don't know about the countries listed, but in UK they have seen an increase of rapes, muggings, and daytime robberies since major gun restrictions took place. Their crime far outstrips that in the US.

Quote[/b] ]There may be responsible gun owners and people who do know their tool of fun, but the majority still just wants to play big gun on the backyard. That´s how it is, and you can´t tell me different.

If someone had so much fun in shooting assault rifles, why doesn´t he just join the army or national guard ?

It´s all for free there.

Lucky for us, the number of responsible people far outnumbers those idiots. Once again, punish the guilty and not the innocent. 100 million gun owners exist in the US with over 250 million legal firearms. The fact that we have only (approx.) 10,000 homocide deaths a year that are firearm related speaks very well for our responsibility in use. Accidental shootings number around 1,000, which puts it into the 'rare' catagory. We have a constitutional right to firearms, whether your country does or not, and it entitles us to their use for self-defense and protection, as it should be.

Sputnik Monroe, add Kerry to list of people who said that.

[Ares1978 0]

As I still see a difference between policemen and civillians I cannot understand what´s the freakin deal to NOT have assault weapons. It´s bullshit to say that an assault weapon can make you safer at home. Everyone with a little basic military experience and live firefights within houses will tell you that an assault weapon is the last to use within a house.

It´s just too big. So if you want to defend your worthy house all night long and play a little boy soldier you better grab some handy piece that you can killswitch around corners without shooting the neighbours brain out.

Policemen have to use pistols and revolvers for exactly this.

In germany there was a loooong deciding process about weak bullets. A lot of people died because they stood behind or near the gangsters or whatever. They got killed because the high velocity bullets went through the gangsters without much physical effect and hit persons behind them or riquocheed into someone nearby.

Three words: Soft. Point. Bullets. You're acting like they don't exist. The police still debates on whether to use expanding bullets at all, but a civilian doesn't (well, in this case) have to worry about being polite to criminals. The "freaking deal" is that people don't like their rights being taken away, even if they aren't exercising them at that time. Especially when it's done without a damn good reason.

The only bullshit here is that an assault weapon can't make you safer at home.

Quote[/b] ]If someone had so much fun in shooting assault rifles, why doesn´t he just join the army or national guard ?

It´s all for free there.

Been there, done that. If someone fears weapons so much, why doesn't he just get over it? Buy an assault weapon and fire a few thousand rounds through it. Then sell it, if you think you can't be trusted with one.