Two Russian Civilian Airlines Lost on Radar

[GoOB 0]

Indeed, Russia is quite modern nowadays. I haven't been there personally, but several of my friends have been to St.Petersburg and Moscow. And they told me it wasn't as "third world" as people claim it to be. And almost everyone they met spoke a bit of English, which is more than I can say from my travelling experiences in Germany and Italy.

And how can you say that Sibir airlines and Aeroflot are the same? Sure, the aircraft might have been in Aeroflot's posession at one time in history. But now they surely belong to a company with different maintenance routines, and a completly different management.

[Akira 0]

One can find all the info you need if you just google the English name of the airline, "Siberia Airlines". If some people had done that first, it would have saved them a lot of trouble and embarressment.

First. Let us address some misconceptions about Siberia Airlines:

Part of Aeroflot?:

Quote[/b] ]wo Russian carriers – Sibir and Vnukovo Airlines – are considering a merger, which, experts say, could form the country's No. 2 airline and create competition for flagship carrier Aeroflot.

"Our ultimate goal is a merger," said Sibir spokesman Andrei Pozdnyakov. He declined to reveal a date or terms for the possible move, or what name the new company would fly under.

The companies recently signed an agreement giving Sibir rights to sell tickets for Vnukovo flights between Moscow and the five destinations on its winter schedule – Yerevan, Sochi, Nadym, Novy Urengoi and Ulan-Ude, according to Pozdnaykov. Vnukovo Airlines was not available for comment.

Experts say both companies would benefit from the proposed deal. The merger would help improve Vnukovo's financial situation, said Vladimir Savov, an analyst at Brunswick Warburg in Moscow. "Vnukovo Airlines was No. 3 in Russia in 1999, but it has lost part of its market share due to financial problems and huge outstanding debts." Savov added that Sibir has always been financially sound.

Sibir has good management, headed by Vladislav Filyov, said Julia Zhdanova, an analyst at United Financial Group in Moscow. "Merger with Sibir would be a very timely and positive decision for Vnukovo Airlines," she said.

Interesting.

Quote[/b] ]Sibir Airlines To Join IATA

An International Air Transport Association commission headed by the technical director of IATA, Donald Van Dyke, conducted an audit in Novosibirsk, Western Siberia last week, reported the public relations department of Sibir Airlines on Tuesday. The purpose of the audit was to find out if the standards employed by Sibir Airlines correspond with internationally accepted IATA norms.

"We found the company manages its production very well," said Van Dyke after the audit. "I am now going to submit the results of our work to the leadership of IATA and recommend Sibir Airlines as a candidate for IATA membership. Once Sibir is a member of the global aviation network, its specialists will gain access to the best achievements of international civil aviation." The official web site for the International Air Transport Association has already added Sibir Airlines to the list of the 279 IATA members.

IATA would hardly add Siberia if it was still part of Aeroflot.

Quote[/b] ]Sibir is considered to be the best run airline in Russia, experts said, while Aeroflot is easily the largest.

Some observers even believe Sibir may overtake the number two carrier in Russia, Pulkovo, following a planned merger with the airline Vnukovo.

A merger was proposed between Aeroflot and Siberia (again, how could they merge if they were already the same?), but it appears little has come of it, other than standard code sharing and route sharing.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, Aeroflot was broken up into hundreds of smaller airlines, Siberia being just one. Siberia was formed in 1992 and privitized in 1994.

IATA

Merger

Unsafe?:

IFC Loan

This serves double. It shows that Siberia was quite safe, and it also shows that the IFC felt that Siberia was a good investment ie had little financial trouble. In fact, after 9/11 Siberia continued to make a profit:

Quote[/b] ]Proposed mitigation for environmental and social issues

The sponsor has presented plans to address these impacts to ensure that the proposed project will upon implementation of the specific agreed measures, comply with the environmental and social requirements - the host country laws and regulations and the World Bank/IFC environment and social policies and the environmental, health and safety guidelines. The information about how these potential impacts will be addressed by the sponsor/project is summarized in the paragraphs that follow.

- Flight Operations Safety (incl. training programmes)

The independent audit confirmed that the management team at Sibir has clearly established safety as their top priority. The accident prevention programs of Sibir provide an additional layer of safety by assisting in the identification and mitigation of risks before they become serious safety problems. The director for safety & security is reporting directly to the Director General, and his group is chartered to investigate events, monitor trends and propose corrective actions directly to the Director General. The key flight safety elements related to flight operations are the licensing, training, and qualification certification of flight crew. The audit found the flight crew training and evaluation programs to be highly professional and rigorously implemented. In addition to flight crew training, the several operations support functions were found to exceed industry standard practices, such as the policy of requiring medical screening by a physician just prior to flight and the Sibir work rest rules, standards designed to prevent errors due to pilot fatigue.

Russian aircraft are not normally fitted with Ground Proximity Warning Systems (GPWS) technologies as in the West. To mitigate the risk of this type of accident (the most frequent category of aviation accident in Russia) Sibir policies require an additional crewmember, a flight navigator, whose duty during takeoff and landing and a principal duty during a flight is to monitor the aircraft’s position in relation to the ground. The Siberia Aircraft also have a “minimal†system of Russian design to provide the pilots with an “alert†of approaching terrain.

Another safety related initiative implemented during 2003 at Sibir is a company-controlled air-ground communication system available during the entire flight for all routes.

Environmental management at maintenance sites

The audit found that the overall maintenance status of Sibir aircraft is noteworthy; with knowledgeable leadership, skilled technicians, suitable facilities, adequate spare parts and high standards set by Sibir policies and the Russian Federation. Due to the age of their aircraft, Sibir has not been able to take advantage of all of the safety related technology contained in the latest generation of western aircraft, but the airline has developed effective strategies to reduce the risks associated with the state of their technology.

Conducted primarily at the Novosibirsk maintenance center, these activities necessarily involve the handling of hazardous materials, such as paints, fuels, lubricants, solvents, hydraulic fluids, and other specialized chemical products, as well as the generation of liquid and solid wastes (waste oils & solvents, metal plating wastes, spent batteries, paint waste, etc.). Sibir ensures that hazardous materials are properly stored inside buildings or in areas provided with secondary containment to prevent accidental spills from being released to the environment, and that wastes are collected and temporarily stored in containers, where appropriate in segregated areas. Depending on the type and class of waste, Sibir has arrangements with its suppliers and/or authorized waste disposal operators to ensure that these wastes are appropriately disposed or recycled in compliance with relevant Russian laws and requirements and World Bank guidelines. Sanitary effluents are discharged to airport-operated collection and treatment systems.

IFC will require the preparation and implementation of an environmental management system (EMS) within the framework of ISO 14001, the international EMS standard. In going forward with the development and implementation of the EMS and related management systems, Sibir will expand the scope to incorporate World Bank environmental and social policies and guidelines as part of the legal and other requirements that apply to its activities.

I think that speaks for itself. This is part of the World Bank remember.

Also, consider the only reported accident of Siberia's is the shoot-down of another TU-154M over the Black Sea. Siberia has not had an accident in its 12 year history, that can be blamed on its procedures, even in 1999 when it was financially strapped.

And:

Siberia Hooks Into SITA

Quote[/b] ] Siberia Airlines selects SITA technology to power expansion plans

Wednesday, July 28, 2004

As part of its strategic development Siberia Airlines, Russia’s second largest Airline, has signed a five-year contract with SITA Information Networking Computing (INC) for the provision of a range of applications including Gabriel, its leading booking,inventory and reservations technology.

The contract covers Gabriel, Airfare, Ticketing and Data Management Services and will allow Siberia Airlines to take advantage of SITA`s next generation Horizon Reservations system to reduce the costs of distribution and provide enhanced levels of customer service across their entire network as it becomes available in the near future. In addition, Siberia Airlines have selected STRATEGY, SITA’s sophisticated revenue management tool that can increase revenues in a matter of months.

Gabriel, which is used by over 160 airlines worldwide, allows Siberia Airlines to store its entire inventory in one place while having the benefits of a local distribution system. By maintaining all resources in a single location, the airline can now introduce yield and revenue management techniques with STRATEGY that will increase overall revenues. Implementing proven revenue management practices can add, on average, 6-8% increase to the bottom line and even higher yields can be realised from better allocation of capacity and booking classes.

Siberia Airlines is currently ranked as the 4th fastest growing airline in the world (Airline Business magazine`s 2003 league tables) and is the first Russian winner of the Flight International Award for Excellence in Corporate Strategy. The strategic plan the airline is implementing is aimed at increasing its presence in the air service market and enhancing the quality of passenger service. Siberia’s selection of SITA’s technology to support this expansion follows many years of successful partnering, and is recognition of how the use of Gabriel and STRATEGY will provide the airline with a major competitive advantage over others in the region.

“We selected SITA over other suppliers because we know they can deliver immediate results to us for example, through improved revenue management with STRATEGY. And, as we proceed with our growth initiatives SITA can provide us with the advanced technology to support our expanding business,†commented Mr. Ilya Aleksandrovskiy, Sales Director, Siberia Airlines.

“By choosing Gabriel and STRATEGY Siberia Airlines has armed itself for future growth,†added Ilya Gutlin, Regional Vice President, SITA INC, “and SITA ‘s technology will continue to provide maximum benefits as the airline expands. We are delighted to have been chosen by Siberia as their partner for the future.â€

Also, Siberia was in partnership with Lufthansa, a world-class airline. Lufthansa would be selling Siberia tickets.

Quote[/b] ]Let's go through airplanes 101.

Engines create thrust which in turn causes air to go over the wings, causing lift. Less thrust from less potent fuel which makes the engine run horribly would in turn cause less lift.

Man. That is the worst Airplane 101 I've ever heard.

Besides the fact that contaminated fuel is mainly a General Aviation problem, contaminated fuel would indeed allow the engines to start, to provide enough thrust, and to take off, with little or no problem. The engines might act sluggishly, but the pilots would not equate that with lift. They would wonder why the engines were not providing enough power, as indicated by slower than normal acceleration. The controls would not be sluggish. The controls would be perfectly fine. But more likely the plane would react and respond as normal, until the contaminate entered the engines.

Diluted fuel, if the case of a vehicle is anything to go by, could indeed be quite dangerous, including engine stall and disintegration. However, I believe the press was wrong (as they are about most aviation facts) indicating they were investigating "diluted" fuel, and what they are most likely investigating is contaminated fuel. But we will have to see. "Dilution" gives the context of it being intentional, thus liability on someone's part.

Quote[/b] ]And it IS Aeroflot. Same people, same airplanes, probably same fuel, in reality it's Aeroflot under a new name primarily using the same old crappy airliners which are ready to fall apart.

Already addressed. If you continue to just believe it is Aeroflot, then you are as blind and ignorant as you are prejudiced with your pre-Cold War views.

Quote[/b] ]So you're an economist now? How do you know they're not cutting costs? The Russian government, as with all governments, hates to spend money if it can cut costs. Airlines cut costs all the time.

You are obviously not an economist. The Russian government has a 25% stake in Siberia, but that does not mean they run the airline.

And as already stated, Siberia continues to make a profit post-9/11, and even after assuming the debts of a merger.

Quote[/b] ]I don't care if all the planes they have are 777s and they had one TU154 and one TU134, two A310s didn't crash, two Tupelovs crashed. This also cements my proof that Sibir Airlines IS Aeroflot!

Most ignorant statement yet. Because it flies Russian aircraft, that makes it unsafe? I'm sorry to say but that is extremely prejudice, and you can get your panties in a snit all you want, but the fact remains.

Quote[/b] ]After the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia's economy collapsed. Here we are 13 years later, and it's just returning, but it's still ailing. Any airline will do anything for extra money.

Quote[/b] ]You underestimate the economic situation in Russia. People will do ANYTHING to save money in Russia. The economy is totally gone, Putin is helping it, but the economy just exploded after the fall of the Soviet Union. Think of what US carriers do to cut costs! Let's take some examples.

From Flagship News, the AA newspaper:

Delta is asking for 1 billion from it's pilots.

United is considering dumping a ton of pensions.

US Airways is asking for 800 million from employees

United is being denied financial aid.

From other sources:

American is laying off thousands of ramp workers.

American is taking away the 45 minutes extra air time. It's now 30.

United is laying off a good portion of it's employees.

From 1st hand accounts:

US Airways is firing people for no reason. But it ends up biting them in the ass because they come back, win their cases, and walk home with backpay and full benefits, plus emotional damages. Wonderul legal strategy boys, go get em.

Delta is offerring a $250,000 payoff to all employees who want to leave now (Pension cut).

Again. I don't see anything in here that states AA or anyone else is diluting fuel, so what makes you think that a Russian airline would do that? Prejudice perhaps?

Quote[/b] ]Now let's look at it in the eyes of the gas provider. You're providing jet fuel, but petroleum is expensive... very expensive. Gas prices are simply on the rise, but the airlines refuse to pay more, so what do you do? You could add fuel to the water at the risk of problems with the engines, but then again, you're no aeronautical engineer, so the worst that could happen is that maybe the engines won't start once. Or at least you think.

Well this has saved you a couple hundred thousand dollars, by simply making it a fuel mix, so you're happy. Company's doing fine, and the airlines aren't paying any more for their gas. What they don't know can't hurt them, right?

Highly unlikely, and as already stated, probably a mistake by the press stating "diluted" fuel., but in the case that it is, any gas contractor, especially an airline providor, would know exactly what would happen if fuel was diluted, and would not risk extreme criminal negligence. The same with any airline, including one that took safety as seriously as Siberia.

Contamination has caused many engine failures, and is an unintentional fouling of the engine. But then again, contamination has yet to cause an airplane break-up as of yet.

In any case, terrorism still has to be a priority cause, given the known circumstances, a bomb being the most likely cause considering the break-up of the planes. I also believe that the hostage transponder code was a mistake, and an effect of things happening so rapidly, considering the FDR's allegedly stopped abrubtly, indicating whatever happened, happened extremely quickly leading to a break-up.

[MSpencer 0]

It amazes me how people can twist my words into prejudice.

The entire industry cuts costs, why should a Russian airline be any different?

Believe me, if AeroMexico or United had this crash, I'd be saying the SAME THING. I'm not a bigot nor am I a racist.

[ozanzac 0]

It amazes me how people can twist my words into prejudice.

The entire industry cuts costs, why should a Russian airline be any different?

Believe me, if AeroMexico or United had this crash, I'd be saying the SAME THING. I'm not a bigot nor am I a racist.

MSpencer. I never 'demonized you as a racist bigot'.

I'll quote myself.

Quote[/b] ]Shows just how very poorly informed you are.

Going into a discussion, such as this, with such statements as

Quote[/b] ]Diluted fuel is a possibility, but I doubt it. Aviation fuel is normally checked for stuff like that. It's possible for someone to dilute the fuel on the ground, but it's hard to do because you would probably have to pump water into the plane's fuel tanks until it reached half capacity, and even then, it wouldn't even take off.

shows exactly just how poorly informed you are.

Firstly. Fuel, due to it's chemical polarity, cannot mix and be diluted with water at all. Why in the hell would anyone pump a substance that can't even burn, let alone mix, into a fuel tank? Even the smallest percentage of water in a fuel tank can doom the engine to a costly re-build! And if there’s enough water contamination, and I stress that word, as water is simply a contaminant to fuel, and the aircraft is in-flight, the engines may not be able to restart at all, resulting in an accident. If dilution is to occur, it's certainly not going to be done with water.

The pilots would probably feel decreased lift, and the controls would be sluggish

.

No. As Akira stated, They'd experience reduced thrust. The controls would only feel sluggish if the plane came close to stall speed. But that's highly unlikely, as in a situation where the engines stall, to maintain airspeed, you alter your aircraft into a nose down attitude. The controls would not feel sluggish unless your come close to stall speed, or you have no hydraulic pressure in the control system.

Prejudice such as 'Oh, those poor Russian's, They'll do anything for a buck' shows just how very poorly informed you are. Yes, dollars do make the world go round, but the situation of the domestic market in Russia is very different to the over-saturated market of America.

I  never said that, stop putting words into my mouth, and stop trying to call me a racist.

I called you prejudicial, not a racist, but will call you a moron if you deny that saying this is not prejudicial:

People will do ANYTHING to save money in Russia

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore. Aeroflot IS modernising it's fleet. Among its fleet are Boeing 767's and 777's, as well as Airbus A-310's. But this is irrelevant......CONSIDERING NEITHER OF THE PLANES WERE AEROFLOT!

The Planes that crashed came from Sibir Airlines (set up from Aeroflot Siberia)

Conflicting statements within literally 2 sentences of each other. Oh please. Make sense.

"Wait, it's not Aeroflot! But then again it was made from Aeroflot! But wait that means that it wasn't Aeroflot directly! No wait they were Aeroflot planes! No I mean it wasn't Aeroflot!"

Sibir Airlines was set up from Aeroflot Siberia in 1992. Well over a decade ago. Sibir Airlines is not Aeroflot today. If you cannot deduce what is wrong with saying that Siber Airlines is still Aeroflot, then it proves you really are a moron.

Quote[/b] ]{DEVGRU}MSpencer{VADM} aka the Vindictive Troll (Thanks cassie) aka the anti-Russian bigot (Thank you ozanzac and akira)

If that's the way you feel, so be it. Change my contribution on your sig to "Prejudicial moron", and you'd be very welcome.

[desantnik 0]

my condelences... so sadd.. i will drink to these peolple....and hopefuly their familyies will overcome this tragic incedint

[Parker Hale 0]

In situations like this I prefer never to speculate but to let the experts do their job and try and find the cause and then wait for the official report to be made public as to the said cause.

I was in Germany at the time when i was contacted by a very dear russian friend who told me the tragic news and I send my condolences to all the people who lost loved ones.

I myself have travelled with several airlines (big and small) over the years as part of my job but have never to this date had any cause to complain about either the state of the aircraft or service in fact i rate the eastern european airlines very highly indeed.

Parker Hale

[MSpencer 0]

ozanzac, you win. Stop talking now, stop going off topic, and stop your little crusades. Ok, you win, make you feel better? I'm a total complete biased racist moron who's dilluded visions of the Cold War haunt the images of a totally, completely stable Russia that has made a miraculous recovery from a horrible depression in 13 years. Sure, I'm sure that makes everyone feel better now that I've lied through my teeth.

[turms 0]

There is definetly something not correct here; Russia agrees to pay compensation for the relatives 2 days after the crash, without the reason solved? Sounds weird....

[pogingwapo 0]

Now that sounds like compensation for a difficult decision to use the ultimate means necessary to stop the mid-air hijackings. Something Cheney wasn't able to do back in 9/11 because he gave the order too late.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]There is definetly something not correct here; Russia agrees to pay compensation for the relatives 2 days after the crash, without the reason solved? Sounds weird....

Do you have a link. I can't find that...

That indeed would be wierd, and seem to indicate they were trying to pre-emptively stop any lawsuits.

Quote[/b] ]I'm a total complete biased racist moron who's dilluded visions of the Cold War haunt the images of a totally, completely stable Russia that has made a miraculous recovery from a horrible depression in 13 years. Sure, I'm sure that makes everyone feel better now that I've lied through my teeth.

Quote[/b] ]{DEVGRU}MSpencer{VADM} aka the Vindictive Troll (Thanks cassie) aka the anti-Russian bigot/biased moron (Thank you akira and ozanzac respectively)

I only have your statements to go on. Only what you said, and let us look at some things you said:

Quote[/b] ]I don't care if all the planes they have are 777s and they had one TU154 and one TU134, two A310s didn't crash, two Tupelovs crashed. This also cements my proof that Sibir Airlines IS Aeroflot!

Quote[/b] ]And it IS Aeroflot. Same people, same airplanes, probably same fuel, in reality it's Aeroflot under a new name primarily using the same old crappy airliners which are ready to fall apart.

Quote[/b] ]In the airline industry, Aeroflot is viewed as the worst airline in the world, FYI.

Quote[/b] ]They have the same planes, same personnel, and same maintenance crews. I don't care if they made strides in safety, in reality, the only stride is the order of brand new 737s which will eventually go to hell.

Quote[/b] ]You underestimate the economic situation in Russia. People will do ANYTHING to save money in Russia. The economy is totally gone, Putin is helping it, but the economy just exploded after the fall of the Soviet Union

Now tell us exactly why that isn't prejudiced?

In any case, this thread shouldn't be MSpencer bashing, as fun as it is, but about this crash, the investigation, and the victims.

[MSpencer 0]

Quote[/b] ]I don't care if all the planes they have are 777s and they had one TU154 and one TU134, two A310s didn't crash, two Tupelovs crashed. This also cements my proof that Sibir Airlines IS Aeroflot!

The last part was in reference to the comment about Sibir being created from Aeroflot Siberia.

Quote[/b] ]And it IS Aeroflot. Same people, same airplanes, probably same fuel, in reality it's Aeroflot under a new name primarily using the same old crappy airliners which are ready to fall apart.

Really, consider the quality of the engines (707 quality), the service records, the age, and the maintenance they got under the old Soviet Union. That's not prejudicial. Russians make good helicopters, tanks, small arms, and heavy lift aircraft, not airliners. And that's the truth. You may call me a racist bastard or something, but that's my opinion and I'm pretty sure it's one universally accepted.

Quote[/b] ]They have the same planes, same personnel, and same maintenance crews. I don't care if they made strides in safety, in reality, the only stride is the order of brand new 737s which will eventually go to hell.

A 737 should recieve more maintenance than older planes due to the more expensive electronics (If you argue with me about that, I'm seriously gonna give up on trying to make people understand anything anymore) that are prevalent in 737-700/800 systems.

Quote[/b] ]In the airline industry, Aeroflot is viewed as the worst airline in the world, FYI.

Again, safety record speaks for itself.

Quote[/b] ]You underestimate the economic situation in Russia. People will do ANYTHING to save money in Russia. The economy is totally gone, Putin is helping it, but the economy just exploded after the fall of the Soviet Union

The Soviet Union was spending billions upon billions upon billions of dollars on military hardware, then they bottomed out. It was a flawed system that could not go on indefinitely. You can't argue about that, believe me.

Amassing 100,000 tanks can't do wonders for the economy, and when you have more nuclear missiles than airliners, you know you're in tough shape.

So it finally collapsed, the iron curtain fell, and the economy crumbled. Now let me show you how stupid this "you're a bigot" thing is. I'm in the middle of praising Vladmir Putin for his economic policy, a job that would make FDR shudder, and you call me a bigot. You claim I hate Russians? Why don't you cite the parts where I say GOOD things? Don't misconstrue my words. I said it before, you don't listen.

[Akira 0]

*sigh*

The point is you repeatedly called Siberia Aeroflot, when they were no longer the same entity. And the quotes and links I provided proved you wrong about your misconstrued ideas about Siberia's safety record, as you continued to try to call Siberia Aeroflot and then a part of Aeroflot.

Quote[/b] ]Really, consider the quality of the engines (707 quality), the service records, the age, and the maintenance they got under the old Soviet Union.

What about the fact that Siberia has a high quality safety and maintance record do you not understand?

This is no longer the Soviet Union anymore, so get off it. The engines, for all you know, could have been rebuilt or replaced, and the fact Siberia never had an engine induced crash or incident in its 12 years attests to that.

Quote[/b] ]Again, safety record speaks for itself.

Indeed. So read my quotes and links again and get it through your head.

Quote[/b] ]and you call me a bigot.

I didn't call you a bigot, I called you prejudiced. A big difference, so don't misconstrue my words.

The fact is you made many statements against the airlines safety for the very fact that it was Russian, and 12 years ago a part of Aeroflot(and even repeatedly calling it Aeroflot), when I have supplied ample proof to the contrary.

[Balschoiw 0]

+++++breaking news+++++breaking news+++++breaking news+++++breaking news

Explosives Found in Russian Jet Wreckage

Quote[/b] ]Traces of explosives have been found in the wreckage of one of two airliners that crashed nearly simultaneously earlier this week, the Federal Security Service said Friday, a day after a top official acknowledged that terrorism was the most likely cause of the crashes.

A duty officer at the agency, the main successor to the Soviet-era KGB, confirmed reports on Russian news agencies that cited agency spokesman Sergei Ignatchenko as saying that "preliminary analysis indicates it was hexogen."

The announcement came several hours after a Web site known for militant Muslim published a claim of responsibility for the twin crashes, connecting the action to Russia's fight against separatists in Chechnya (news - web sites).

The Russian news reports said the explosive traces were found in the wreckage of a Tu-154 that was one of two planes that crashed Tuesday night, killing at least 89 people.

Although the planes disappeared from radar screens within minutes of each other after taking off from the same airport, Moscow's Domodedovo, Russian officials had held back from connecting them to terrorism, citing bad fuel and human error as other possible causes.

The Russian presidential envoy for the region that includes Chechnya, Vladimir Yakovlev, however, conceded Thursday that terrorism was seen as the most likely cause.

The crashes took place just five days before presidential elections were to be held in Chechnya, where rebels and Russian forces have been fighting for nearly five years. Officials had warned of concern that separatists could try to commit attacks ahead of the elections, which are to fill the post of the late Kremlin-backed Chechen president Akhmad Kadyrov, who was assassinated by a bomb in May.

Russian officials have repeatedly contended that the rebels who have been fighting Russian forces in Chechnya for nearly five years receive help from foreign terrorist organizations, including al-Qaida.

Friday's claim of responsibility did not refer to al-Qaida, but a group called "the Islambouli Brigades of al-Qaida" claimed responsibility for last month's attempt to assassinate Pakistan's prime minister-designate.

A spokesman for the Federal Security Service said he could not immediately comment on the Web site's statement.

The statement did not give details on how the alleged attacks on the Russian planes occurred.

"Our mujahedeen, with God's grace, succeeded in directing the first blow which will be followed by a series of other operations in a wave to extend support and victory to our Muslim brothers in Chechnya and other Muslim areas which suffer from Russian faithlessness," the statement said.

It was not clear whether the statement claimed that Chechens themselves staged attacks on the planes.

Chechen rebels and their supporters are blamed for a series of suicide bombings and other attacks in Chechnya and the rest of Russia over the past several years, including last year's suicide bombings of an outdoor rock concert in Moscow and another outside a hotel near Red Square.

Any explanation other than terrorism "seems to be purely impossible," independent aviation expert Oleg Panteleyev said Thursday.

There also was doubt among ordinary Russians on whether they could count on their government to be open with them.

"I never trust what the authorities are saying, but in this case, I don't know — it could have been an accident or a terrorist act," said Yevgeny Skepner, a 37-year-old computer programmer.

Many Russians have ingrained doubts about the government's candor after the confused and contradictory reports on the sinking of the nuclear submarine Kursk (news - web sites) in 2000 and the still-murky 2002 seizure of a Moscow theater by Chechen rebels.

and the group wich claims responsibility:

Group Claims Russian Plane Crashes- Web Site

Quote[/b] ]DUBAI (Reuters) - An Islamist group has claimed that it hijacked two Russian planes that crashed this week, killing at least 89 people, and threatened more attacks, according to an Internet statement posted on Friday.

"Our mujahideen in the Islambouli Brigades were able to hijack two Russian planes and they were successful despite the obstacles that faced them at the beginning. There were five (mujahideen) in each plane," said the Arabic-language statement, whose authenticity could not be verified.

It was posted on a Web site which usually carries Islamist militant statements.

[Akira 0]

Now I guess they have to figure out what happened. Did the passengers fight back forcing the terrorists to blow the plane? Was it an accidental detonation?

There certianly was too many coincidences... I guess we were right sadly.

[bn880 5]

Well, at least it wasn't bad fuel and bad pilots. I guess that's the only positive...

[MSpencer 0]

So now this whole fuel thing doesn't matter, and my prejudiced anti-Russian first hypothesis/propoganda piece was correct.

[Akira 0]

So now this whole fuel thing doesn't matter, and my prejudiced anti-Russian first hypothesis/propoganda piece was correct.

Since you continue to try to make it all about you...

We had already decided terrorism was the most likely cause before you came along.

Your anti-Russian aviation, ill-informed comments are not changed at all by this.

[MSpencer 0]

I am merely stating that my first post, saying that there was a good chance of it being terrorism, was correct.

Now let's see what the Chechens do...

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

C'mon guys...you know better than to argue with someone who has "military analyst" in his signature image. I mean really...

[Akira 0]

C'mon guys...you know better than to argue with someone who has "military analyst" in his signature image. I mean really...

LOL

I didn't even notice that! Least it wasn't "aviation analyst"!

[GoOB 0]

Lads... Seriously, you won the argument... Afterall, this isn't a day nursery.

I am curios as to when/if the remains of the two chechen women that checked in to the flight with the explosives found onboard will be found....

(I am not entirely sure that two chechen women boarded the plane, I just heard it on the radio news a minute ago.)

[Akira 0]

Lads... Seriously, you won the argument... Afterall, this isn't a day nursery.

I am curios as to when/if the remains of the two chechen women that checked in to the flight with the explosives found onboard will be found....

(I am not entirely sure that two chechen women boarded the plane, I just heard it on the radio news a minute ago.)

Anybody know anything about this Islambouli Brigades? (too lazy to google right now)

Is it Chechen related?

[GoOB 0]

I found no real sources on Al-Islambouli Brigades from my Google search... Gonna try again in a bit, my eyes are a bit sore :o

[ran 0]

I'm not exactly familiar with the Islambouli Brigade activities.

All I know is that they've been pretty active recently in Pakistan.

If I recall correctly, the Islambouli Brigade was involved in a recent failed murder attempt on Musharraf and several ambushes on Pakistanese governmental forces.

Just remembered something :

Wasn't the assassin of the Egyptian President Sadate called Islambouli ?

[Balschoiw 0]

The military analyst might have missed that it was not chechen origin but

Quote[/b] ]Our mujahideen in the Islambouli Brigades were able to hijack two Russian planes and they were successful despite the obstacles that faced them at the beginning. There were five (mujahideen) in each plane," said the Arabic-language statement, whose authenticity could not be verified.

Islambouli Brigades are a branch of Al Quaida, at least they call themselves so.

Here is a dossier about them:

Dossier about Islambouli Brigades

And yes Ran , the leader of the assasins who killed Sadat was called Lt. Kahled al Islambouli.