The Iraq thread 4

[bn880 5]

Sadly this is what happens if you use Gunships to police the area. You can't use high explosives without killing civilians indescriminately.

The other side of that is to send in ground troops, but then they suffer at the hands of small arms.

I think they were well aware how many people they could kill with those rockets, it was intentional because these people were cheering/gloating. Simply, terrorism. (non combatants posing no threats attacked with excessive/deadly force with conscious effort and premeditation)

There sure as hell was no looting, that thing was up in smoke already, there was only some celebration.

Yeah, this ticks me off too, as it should every sane person.

My greatest condolences to the family of Mazen al-Tumeizi (Al-Arabiya television reporter) who was killed in this act of terror.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]oy....Fox.....i really really pity you...your cable service SUCKS!

Come to the darkside....

Quote[/b] ]Simply, terrorism.

I see somebody uses the word terrorism the wrong way like I do sometimes...

[Balschoiw 0]

I am not that upset about this. A car bomb went up and wrecked the Bradley, the crew went away injured. A helo went to the location and was fired upon with small wepaons as they say... They took out the Bradley in an unconventional way and people died.

The tank was ambushed and the helo cleared the scene, although it looks like the gunner wasn´t especially focussed on avoiding civillian casualties. That happens every day in Iraq. Nothing special. Unfortunally

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]Simply, terrorism.

I see somebody uses the word terrorism the wrong way like I do sometimes...

Sure it is not 100% correct, it is in a warzone, but you could say that Alqaeda declared war on the USA as well, so.... same shit.

[BoweryBaker 0]

what do ya'll think of people trying to let terrorists get away with this racial profiling crap. They're not being picked on for being of a certain race, theres no hidden agenda to wipe them all out, whats going on is, mostly all of the terrorists that want to hit us are arabic, so if there is a suspicious arab person, of course they're going to search him. We blacks had a problem with racial profiling when we were targeted for nothing. We weren't plotting nothing. We was just hated for our color. But these guys are acting like a bunch of arabs never crashed a plane into a building. Everyone knows better but they've managed to use our system against us. This isn't a racist rant. I'm not against arabs, so don't like, tell me not to be racist, im only defending the U.S. saying that I don't believe that checking a suspicious arab is not racial profiling in a bad way. In this case its needed. That's my idea on racial profiling. I don't hate arabs and used no arab slurs so i deserve not to be kicked from this forum. Now lets see how you misinterpret my words.

[ralphwiggum 6]

it goes both ways.

anyways, in addition to quicksand's comment about the Iraqi ambulance, local news mentioned it in the news, so the media is not loosing its grip often. however, it was in a paragraph of what happned in that operation, not in a separate manner.

back to the war

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/09/13/falluja/index.html

Quote[/b] ]FALLUJA, Iraq (CNN) -- A former U.S. Marine commander of forces in western Iraq says he was opposed to the method and timing of the U.S. response to attacks on Americans last spring in the Sunni Muslim stronghold of Falluja.

Marine Lt. Gen. James T. Conway said Sunday that he was ordered to attack parts of the city west of Baghdad after insurgents ambushed and killed four U.S. contractors March 31.

After the media showed images of the contractors' dismembered bodies suspended from a bridge over the Euphrates River, the U.S.-led coalition began planning a way to end anti-American insurgent activity in Falluja.

"We felt like we had a method that we wanted to apply to Falluja and thought we ought to let the situation settle before we appeared to be attacking out of revenge," Conway said.

Conway made his comments shortly after relinquishing his command at a ceremony at Marine headquarters outside Falluja.

"Would our system have been better, would we have been able to bring over the people of Falluja with our methods? You'll never know that for sure," Conway said.

The Marines took control of western Iraq in March from the Army's 82nd Airborne Division. The Army had generally left Falluja alone, and Conway and his Marines planned to use reconstruction and civil affairs projects to win support among Iraqis in that volatile part of the country.

A three-day pounding of the city in April by the Marines was ordered to stop by Conway's superior, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, who was then commander of all U.S. forces in Iraq, paving the way for the creation of the Falluja Brigade, made up of former Iraqi soldiers from the city.

Conway questioned the decision Sunday. "When you order elements of a Marine division to attack a city, you really need to understand what the consequences of that will be and not vacillate in the middle of something like that," he said. "Once you commit, you have to stay committed."

The creation of the Falluja Brigade also fell on Conway through Sanchez's orders. While the brigade had high hopes from Iraqis, it got little accomplished, and reports of soldiers mixing with insurgents eventually led to the end of the brigade.

The Falluja Brigade, labeled by Conway as an experiment, was dissolved last week, and former members were offered a chance to join the Iraqi army.

"You had to have a force that came from Falluja in order for it to be accepted by the people," Conway said. "Because they were from the local area, they were emasculated as far as their ability to do something very aggressive."

The United States gave the Falluja Brigade thousands of uniforms, hundreds of weapons and dozens of radios and trucks. The Marines have asked for them to be returned, and the brigade's former commander has agreed, but there are reports that much of the material is now in the hands of insurgents.

The U.S. Marines remain out of the city, and fighting continues.

Conway said the U.S. military could "crush the city in four days," though he contends that that will not be the way things are done.

Iraqi forces will be the next soldiers to set foot in the city with U.S. support, Conway said, adding that he doesn't know what the immediate future holds.

"I don't know if the Iraqi security forces are capable of making it better," he said. "There is a police force in Falluja, but I think it's very much compromised and is subject to anti-Iraqi forces in the city. But I think in the end there will be a fight in or around Falluja."

[Balschoiw 0]

Turkey is opposing US actions in the north of Iraq.

Turkey warns US on northern Iraq

Quote[/b] ]Turkey says it will end cooperation with the US in Iraq if the Americans continue with their offensive in the northern Iraqi town of Talafar.

Ankara is concerned about the plight of the large Turkmen population there, some of whom have been killed.

US and Iraqi troops last week began a major operation against Talafar - a suspected haven for foreign fighters entering Iraq from Syria.

On Friday Turkey's foreign ministry urged the US to halt the offensive.

"What is being done there is harming the civilian population, that it is wrong," Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said on Monday.

He added that if the operation continues in Talafar, "Turkey's cooperation on issues regarding Iraq will come to a total stop".

Turkey is a major Nato ally of the US.

The BBC's Jonny Dymond in Ankara says an end to Turkish cooperation in Iraq could have a serious impact.

As well as supplying logistical help for the US armed forces there, Turkey is a major trade and supply route into the country.

The Turkish airbase of Incirlik has been used by the US to rotate its troops in and out of Iraq.

Casualties

Our correspondent adds that it is not clear yet quite what Turkey means by ending cooperation - but the US needs Turkey enough for it to heed the minister's warning.

The Turks regards northern Iraq as part of their sphere of influence - not only because of its close ethnic and linguistic ties with Iraq's Turkmen but because of the presence of large Kurdish populations on both sides of the border.

It is unclear how many people have been killed in the US offensive in Talafar.

But reports suggest that some Turkmen are among the victims, and that many thousands have been forced to flee.

The US ambassador to Turkey, Eric Edelman, has said the American forces are doing their best to keep civilian losses to a minimum as they fight the Iraqi insurgents.

Turkey is a must-have partner for the US right now. If they don´t watch what they are doing, they could get into trouble. Logistic trouble as well as occupational trouble.

An no the "either with us or against us" shit doesn´t work here...

and there is good old Powell....

Powell Says Some In U.S. Intelligence Knew Sourcing On Iraq Was Suspect

Quote[/b] ]

WASHINGTON, Sept 13 (AFP) - US Secretary of State Colin Powell said Monday some groups within American intelligence knew that sourcing of information used to justify the invasion of Iraq was suspect but did not inform the authorities.

Before the March 2003 invasion, Powell presented the United Nations with data proclaiming to prove that Iraq was engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction.

The US failure to find weapons of mass destruction has since embarrassed the US administration, damaged its standing around the world and led to sharp criticism of US intelligence community.

Powell had said previously that the information he used as the basis for his landmark speech in the United Nations on February 5, 2003 was "not solid."

On Monday, following questioning by a Senate panel, Powell said: "What also distressed me is that there were some in the intelligence community who had knowledge that the sourcing was suspect and that was not known to me."

He said these groups had put out "disclaimers" about some of the sourcing that were not known to the people who were analysing and making conclusions of the information.

Powell supported President George W. Bush's call last week for a national intelligence director and said with such a powerful person in charge of US intelligence, "you are less likely to have those kind of mistakes made.

"And if you focus this new system, on sharing all information openly and widely, then it is less likely you'll have a kind of situation where I go up there and I am saying something while there are people in one part of the intelligence community not connected well enough to the other part of the intelligence community know at that time I was saying that some of the sourcing was suspect," he said.

Powell had indicated previously that he might have refrained from recommending a US invasion of Iraq, if he had had proof that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction.

But he said Bush had taken the right decision to launch military action.

Ohhhhh the whole TBA was so mislead....Poor poor guys....

HELLO ?!?

There were reports about the falsified intel, there were claims that the intel is NOT true from almost every other country, there were warnings and questions for the relevance of Powells intel. Over an over....

But they ignored it. That´s the fact. It´s not that they did not know that. That´s a blatant lie by the TBA and it´s puppets, and I assume Powell as one of the most worthless puppets in the whole Iraq mess.

I guess they don´t even know how to pronounce the word responsibility. Seems to miss in their brain.

Edit: And while we are at it....

US troops face new torture claims

Thank god it´s only the acts of a few...right ?

Quote[/b] ]Allegations that American soldiers routinely tortured and maltreated detainees have emerged from a third Iraqi city, renewing fears that abuse similar to that inflicted in Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad has been systematic and widespread.

American soldiers in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul beat and stripped detainees, threatened sexual abuse and forced them to listen to loud western music, according to statements seen by the Guardian.

Lawyers investigating the claims have sent details to the Pentagon and the British Ministry of Defence and have demanded an inquiry.

Though the abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail and in Basra has been well-documented, this is the first time claims of abuse have been made from the north of the country.

Two statements have been taken from Iraqis detained in Mosul and more are expected.

In one, an Iraqi lawyer says he was hooded and stripped naked in a building known as the "disco".

Yasir Rubaii Saeed al-Qutaji describes how loud western music was played and cold water poured over his body; he said he was also threatened with sexual abuse.

"For the next 15 hours they tried to break me down by taking me frequently inside and repeating the stripping, cold water and loud music sequence," he says.

"Due to the very loud music," he adds, "they would talk to me via a loudspeaker that was placed next to my ears."

The beatings did not leave a mark on his body because his attackers wore special gloves, he says.

Mr al-Qutaji says he was a founder member of the Islamic Organisation for Human Rights. He claims that other prisoners were treated even worse. "Some were burnt with fire, others [had] bandaged broken arms."

In a separate statement, Haitham Saeed al-Mallah, a Mosul-born engineering graduate says his house was raided by seven American soldiers in January. "I was handcuffed and hooded and was then taken to an unknown place which they call 'the disco', where they played very loud music as one of their means of torture."

He adds: "They left me standing for hours, handcuffed and hooded, which made me quite disorientated. Then I was kicked very hard on my stomach, which was followed by continuous beating with a stick and with their boots until I fell unconscious. I only woke up after they poured over my head very cold water, which caused me great suffering."

Mr al-Mallah says he was taken to a room where there was a "group torture".

He adds: "I heard nothing but screaming and suffering of detained Iraqis. The usage of cold water along with beating seemed to be a standard procedure. We were then asked to perform exhausting exercises of squatting while they were playing extremely loud (and dirty) music.

"Whoever fell to the ground out of exhaustion would receive painful beating and cold water. We were prevented from going to the toilets despite our pleas, which made many of us soil ourselves".

He says detainees were allowed to sleep for about two hours, after which the cycle of torture continued.

"The new thing this time was ordering us to shout, 'Long live the United States'. We were also made to shout obscenities (sentences that had the word 'fuck' in them)."

Mr al-Mallah says the next day, he saw "a young man of 14 years of age bleeding from his anus and lying on the floor.

"He was Kurdish and his name was Hama. I heard the soldiers talking to each other about this guy, they mentioned that the reason for this bleeding was inserting a metal object in his anus."

Mr al-Qutaji, who was detained in March, says he and other Iraqi lawyers have been unable to stop abuses because US forces have been given immunity from prosecution.

He says Paul Bremer, former head of the Coalition Provisonal Authority, dismissed 120 of Iraq's senior judges, 45 of them in Mosul, on the grounds that they were supporters of Saddam's regime.

Phil Shiner, of the Birmingham-based law firm, Public Interest Lawyers, is trying to get the cases raised in the British courts. He is working with American lawyers to get them raised there.

"The British public needs to know the full implications of the decision to get into this war," he said.

A US army spokesman in Baghdad said yesterday that he was surprised by the allegations, which would be investigated.

The MoD in London said it had not yet been made aware of the allegations.

Great work ! Mission accomplished....

[Acecombat 0]

what do ya'll think of people trying to let terrorists get away with this racial profiling crap.  They're not being picked on for being of a certain race, theres no hidden agenda to wipe them all out, whats going on is, mostly all of the terrorists that want to hit us are arabic, so if there is a suspicious arab person, of course they're going to search him.  We blacks had a problem with racial profiling when we were targeted for nothing.  We weren't plotting nothing.  We was just hated for our color.  But these guys are acting like a bunch of arabs never crashed a plane into a building.  Everyone knows better but they've managed to use our system against us.  This isn't a racist rant.  I'm not against arabs, so don't like, tell me not to be racist, im only defending the U.S. saying that I don't believe that checking a suspicious arab is not racial profiling in a bad way.  In this case its needed.  That's my idea on racial profiling.  I don't hate arabs and used no arab slurs so i deserve not to be kicked from this forum.  Now lets see how you misinterpret my words.

Did someone tell you not all Arabs are muslims ?

Did someone tell you theres plenty of Americans who are muslims too?

Did someone tell you theres no such as pure good and evil in this world especially in terms of racial profiling?

*Goes back to playing violent videogames and watching fox*

[SpongeBob 0]

Quote[/b] ]<a href="http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-09/13/article04.shtml

" target="_blank">US Forces Hold Iraqi Women As “Bargaining Chipsâ€</a>

By Samir Haddad, IOL Correspondent

BAGHDAD, September 13 (IslamOnline.net) – An Iraqi resistance group threatened Sunday, September 12, a volcano of attacks against the US occupation forces, who have taken Iraqi women hostage to exchange them with fighters.

A group calling itself the Saladin Al-Ayyubi Brigades, the military wing of the Sunni Islamic Front for the Iraqi Resistance, said the occupation troops kidnapped a mother and three girls on August 26 in Al-Latifia district, 70 kilometers south of Baghdad.

“The coward Americans demanded Iraqi resistance fighters in the area to lay down their arms and hand themselves in to release the four female hostages.

“We vow to teach the US troops a lesson for such a cowardly act unless they set the four free and unharmed,†read the statement, a copy of which was obtained by IslamOnline.net.

“Only men with brave hearts could stand up a fight at battle fields, but cowards resort to such mean ways.

“It is high time that the Iraqis, Sunnis, Shiites, Arabs or Kurds, took an action to defend their honor. We are ready to sacrifice ourselves and offer our lives as a simple token to protect our women,†it added.

The Islamic Front for the Iraqi Resistance was formed on May 30 as an umbrella for all Sunni resistance groups.

The incident is not unprecedented. In the wake of the downfall of the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein, US occupation forces held captive the two wives and sister of the former Iraqi vice president Izat Al-Douri to pressure him.

One wife was released in May, but the fate of the other is still unknown, according to an Iraqi female lawyer who was released from detention in May, 2004.

According to Iraqi sources, there are at least 15 Iraqi woman detainees still in US-run detentions camps across Iraq.

A freed detainee told the Arabic-language Al-Wasat, a weekly supplement of the respectable London-based Al-Hayat newspaper, about her ordeal inside a US prison and how she had been gang-raped by US forces.

[python3 0]

what do ya'll think of people trying to let terrorists get away with this racial profiling crap.  They're not being picked on for being of a certain race, theres no hidden agenda to wipe them all out, whats going on is, mostly all of the terrorists that want to hit us are arabic, so if there is a suspicious arab person, of course they're going to search him.  We blacks had a problem with racial profiling when we were targeted for nothing.  We weren't plotting nothing.  We was just hated for our color.  But these guys are acting like a bunch of arabs never crashed a plane into a building.  Everyone knows better but they've managed to use our system against us.  This isn't a racist rant.  I'm not against arabs, so don't like, tell me not to be racist, im only defending the U.S. saying that I don't believe that checking a suspicious arab is not racial profiling in a bad way.  In this case its needed.  That's my idea on racial profiling.  I don't hate arabs and used no arab slurs so i deserve not to be kicked from this forum.  Now lets see how you misinterpret my words.

Did someone tell you not all Arabs are muslims ?

Did someone tell you theres plenty of Americans who are muslims too?

Did someone tell you theres no such as pure good and evil in this world especially in terms of racial profiling?

*Goes back to playing violent videogames and watching fox*

marhaba akhee!

ah soo true. Most arabs here in the US are in fact christians. And the problem for racial profiling for black people still exists here in the US. I know it does in NYC. And FYI all racial profiling is a negative thing. You cant say its not legitimate for one group and legitimate for another. The next Al Q attack could be made of chinese muslims...... what then? Most muslims in the US arent even arab. I think most are african american. Guess they should start profiling them too huh?

[bn880 5]

what do ya'll think of people trying to let terrorists get away with this racial profiling crap. They're not being picked on for being of a certain race, theres no hidden agenda to wipe them all out, whats going on is, mostly all of the terrorists that want to hit us are arabic, so if there is a suspicious arab person, of course they're going to search him. We blacks had a problem with racial profiling when we were targeted for nothing. We weren't plotting nothing. We was just hated for our color. But these guys are acting like a bunch of arabs never crashed a plane into a building. Everyone knows better but they've managed to use our system against us. This isn't a racist rant. I'm not against arabs, so don't like, tell me not to be racist, im only defending the U.S. saying that I don't believe that checking a suspicious arab is not racial profiling in a bad way. In this case its needed. That's my idea on racial profiling. I don't hate arabs and used no arab slurs so i deserve not to be kicked from this forum. Now lets see how you misinterpret my words.

Did someone tell you not all Arabs are muslims ?

Did someone tell you theres plenty of Americans who are muslims too?

Did someone tell you theres no such as pure good and evil in this world especially in terms of racial profiling?

*Goes back to playing violent videogames and watching fox*

Right,

HEY WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN???

How do we know the government didn't kill you and get someone else to post on these forums to pretend it's you?

EDIT: PS, lights out in Iraq. Power supply knocked out.

[DarkLight 0]

what do ya'll think of people trying to let terrorists get away with this racial profiling crap.  They're not being picked on for being of a certain race, theres no hidden agenda to wipe them all out, whats going on is, mostly all of the terrorists that want to hit us are arabic, so if there is a suspicious arab person, of course they're going to search him.  We blacks had a problem with racial profiling when we were targeted for nothing.  We weren't plotting nothing.  We was just hated for our color.  But these guys are acting like a bunch of arabs never crashed a plane into a building.  Everyone knows better but they've managed to use our system against us.  This isn't a racist rant.  I'm not against arabs, so don't like, tell me not to be racist, im only defending the U.S. saying that I don't believe that checking a suspicious arab is not racial profiling in a bad way.  In this case its needed.  That's my idea on racial profiling.  I don't hate arabs and used no arab slurs so i deserve not to be kicked from this forum.  Now lets see how you misinterpret my words.

Did someone tell you not all Arabs are muslims ?

Did someone tell you theres plenty of Americans who are muslims too?

Did someone tell you theres no such as pure good and evil in this world especially in terms of racial profiling?

*Goes back to playing violent videogames and watching fox*

Right,

HEY  WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN???  

How do we know the government didn't kill you and get someone else to post on these forums to pretend it's you?  

EDIT: PS, lights out in Iraq.  Power supply knocked out.

Don't worry... my men are taking care of him riiiight....... now!

[Acecombat 0]

@bn880:

Hehe exams mate and then i sorta forgot my password for the forums , and drifted away from here in to RL (pretty scary stuff that ) until placebo asked me in to being a judge for the BIS mission contest then i hauled my lazy arse and finally retrieved my pass and logged in.

@Python3

Quote[/b] ]And FYI all racial profiling is a negative thing

Salam mr python and quite agree there , racial profiling is as stupid as it gets , a few retards blow up a joint and everyone that comes from that part of the world gets screened and scrutinized for it.

If thats the case then we should all live in paranoai (sp) and racially profile everyone , remember human history isnt that clean everyones got a messy side to theirs so who knows i mean there might be some crazy brit with devious plans for the US to bring them back under the crown and Her Majestys rule

I will give you this that theres indeed a clash of ideologys brewing about between so called muslims and the west and no ones asking you to ignore it , but its not between races its between our retards vs some of yours this thing has been going on for ages ever since religions were introduced and sometime even before. Taking this as an issue to harass people is real low.

[BoweryBaker 0]

Okay I was wrong. It is definitely smarter to go about things in terms of indeniable proof rather than just plain odds. You've changed a man today. Now tell me, am i to be condemned for being a flip flopper? Or no, that in fact all that matters is that I listened to open criticism and changed my mind for the better? Think of it this way, I'm running an airport. Now that I'm going to change policy do you still see me fit for the position. Quote me on this: What makes a better man, one who listens when he's wrong and changes, or one that listens to noone and carries on by doing what he thinks is right?

[bn880 5]

@bn880:

Hehe exams mate and then i sorta forgot my password for the forums , and drifted away from here in to RL (pretty scary stuff that ) until placebo asked me in to being a judge for the BIS mission contest then i hauled my lazy arse and finally retrieved my pass and logged in.

Seriously? I had assumed the worst.

To BoweryBaker, to me a man who realizes his mistakes and changes accordingly is a much more respectable person than one who hides that he is wrong to appear stronger to the world. However sometimes you should not change your actions after certain promises/agreements are in place.......

I guess that's social philosophy.

[Acecombat 0]

Well done Mr bowery baker it takes a much bigger and braver man to admit ones fault and changing on it rather then acting like a stubborn mule and not even listening to the other arguments.

Its the one thing thats changed me in many ways too and i can say this with conviction that societys and people who arent up for listening anyone else and try to isolate themselves and live in paranoai are the ones who behave in such ways such as the terrorists as their mental wellbeing and their vision of reality is somewhat distorted and twisted.

Dialog is always a good thing and if it brings about POSITIVE change nothing could be BETTER

[ralphwiggum 6]

just saw ABC's Nightline, and one of the producers was among the 1st calvary in august. I can say that the images of Najaf reminds me of the city in Full Metal Jacket. click the video.

not from the show

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040914_1008.html

[Balschoiw 0]

Rice: Iraq is like postwar Germany

What has she been smoking ?

Quote[/b] ]Acknowledging no evidence of a link between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice on Monday defended the war in Iraq and said it's "phony" to suggest it has spawned more terrorists.

During a series of Charlotte-area appearances, she compared the ongoing violence and disorder with that of postwar Germany.

"When you have big historic changes, there are going to be ups and downs," she said in a meeting with Observer editors and reporters. "There are going to be peaks and valleys. Some things are going to go right. Some things are going to go wrong. But as long as the strategic direction is going in the right way, that's really what you have to judge."

The president's top foreign policy adviser also spoke to students at Johnson C. Smith and Wingate universities.

Her visit wasn't all business. A die-hard football fan, the 49-year-old Rice also attended Monday night's Carolina Panthers game as a guest of team owner Jerry Richardson. And at Smith, she traced the steps of her father, who earned two degrees there in the 1940s.

Like President Bush, Rice described the war in Iraq as an extension of the war on terror. Despite the U.S. failure to find stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, she said Saddam still posed a threat.

"What is still not incontrovertible is that he maintained the intent, the capability, the knowledge base (and) a procurement network. ... He was a weapons-of-mass-destruction threat," she said. "So even with the absence of stockpiles, you're dealing with a weapons-of-mass-destruction problem sooner or later. The question is: Do you take care of it sooner or later?"

Rice dismissed criticism that Iraq has become a terrorist recruiting ground.

"The argument that we've created more terrorists by being in Iraq is just phony," she said. "It's that simple. These people like (Abu Musab) al-Zarqawi and his ilk were not sitting around drinking tea someplace. These are hardened killers who have an ideology of hatred that was spawned by Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida. ... This is virulent ideology that has subverted some of the tenets of Islam."

Rice, who co-authored a book on the reunification of Germany, compared Iraq with postwar Europe. She said people should take a long view.

"I look back, and I think how incredibly chaotic it must have all looked and how disheartening it must have all looked in those years. And somehow they found the ability to have a confidence ... and say `We're going to stay with our values' and to say `We're going to insist on a different kind of Germany that's going to give us ... a different kind of Europe.' "

Rice also alluded to Germany during remarks at Wingate University.

She said the Muslim world wants freedom, even if it seems to resist it or if it seems unbelievable. She drew a parallel to the way the world once didn't believe Germans and Russians wanted freedom. "It must have seemed far-fetched it could change," she said.

"Freedom is what every person wants," she added, reminding the overwhelmingly white audience at Wingate that she is a descendant of slaves. She acknowledged that not all Iraqis have welcomed the U.S. occupation. She said Americans must "do more to understand Muslims."

At Wingate, Rice spoke for 20 minutes about the importance of dispelling anti-American sentiment in the Middle East through education. She also answered student questions.

"We must destroy the destructive myths against America," she told the crowd of nearly 1,000. Education can "wipe away" the circumstances of one's birth, like socioeconomic class, she said.

Rice was warmly received at Wingate, where she spoke as part of the Jesse Helms Lecture Series, which has brought in former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and the Dalai Lama.

Former U.S. Sen. Jesse Helms, looking frail, was helped in and out of the auditorium by Union County Sheriff Eddie Cathey and deputies, who held Helms' arms. His entrance was met with a standing ovation, and he sat quietly in the front row, where Rice waved to him.

The Jesse Helms Center, about 30 miles southeast of Charlotte in Wingate, regularly brings speakers to the university, which Helms attended.

At Wingate, Rice impressed some students from Union County's Forest Hills High School's Advanced Placement history class with hopes for the future.

Rice said she imagined the U.S. president and the president and prime minister from Afghanistan and Iraq together two decades from now, saying, "You know, I'm really glad they made the decisions they did."

"I never thought about it that way," said Hannah Barbee, a 16-year-old Forest Hills junior, of how decisions made today are laying groundwork for the future. "It's optimistic."

Comparing post-war Germany to in-war Iraq is somehow far fetched and the historical detail is very different. Was there resistance after Hitler killed himself ? I don´t get it but maybe the history the US teaches about post war germany is different than the one I have been taught...

And no....the war in Iraq has newver ever created more terrorists. No ! No! No!

You simply have to repeat some things over and over and people will believe them in longterm. TBA principle number 1.

Too bad reality looks different...

73 killed in Iraq car bombing, ambush

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD: At least 73 people were killed on Tuesday in a Baghdad car bombing and in an ambush on police in Baquba, claimed by al-Qaeda-linked militants, as fighting flared between US troops and insurgents in Ramadi.

Fifty people perished in Baghdad, 47 of them when a vehicle packed with explosives blew up outside the main police headquarters. Shrapnel tore the crowded district, littering body parts everywhere and leaving pools of congealed blood on the pavement.

Witnesses said that dozens of people were queuing outside the station, which doubles as a police recruitment centre sending shards of shrapnel flying and clouds of smoke into the air. A health ministry spokesman said that 47 people were killed and 114 wounded in the blast, which occurred in the Haifa street area. Two other Iraqis were seriously wounded when another bomb exploded near the planning ministry nearly simultaneously, the health ministry said.

Police sergeant Haider Hamid said that the first bomb struck outside the main entrance of the al-Karkh police centre, near a football pitch and school, but that the building itself escaped with only minor damage.

Paramedics and residents picked up body parts scattered across the street and put them into boxes. Anguished men lifted bodies burned beyond recognition and lay them gently on stretchers. Helicopters circled.

Anguished relatives, seeking news of loved ones, frantically turned over ID cards or inspected dozens of pairs of shoes lined up on the roadside by police near the crater gouged in the ground by the blast. Interior Minister Falah al-Naqib blamed the bombing on "Arab groups" as angry men cursed US President George W Bush.

Another car bomb, apparently detonated by a suicide attacker, wounded a bystander in central Baghdad, but missed a three-vehicle convoy that was believed to be its target, police said. "The force of the blast blew the vehicle of the presumed suicide bomber right off the ground," said a police officer on the scene close to Killani Square on the east bank of the Tigris. US helicopters hovered over the scene soon after the 3 pm blast.

Also, the US military said three American soldiers were killed and eight others wounded in separate attacks in Iraq in the past 24 hours. A loud explosion rocked central Baghdad. The blast targeted the Green Zone, which is the headquarters of Iraq’s interim government and the US Embassy. The US military had no immediate comment.

Further north in Baquba, 13 people died in an ambush, all but one of them a policemen. Twelve Iraqi policemen and their driver were killed and two others wounded when gunmen sprayed their vehicle with bullets, police said.

The shooting occurred at 1:15 pm in the south-eastern part of the city, said police officer Mohamed Mabrouk. "The police were in a mini-bus when two civilian cars blocked them off in the Tahrir district. The men stepped out of their vehicle and started to fire," Mabrouk said.

Out west, 10 people were killed and 22 wounded in clashes between US troops and insurgents in Ramadi, where the sound of gunfire echoed from the city centre, the health ministry said. Statements posted on an Islamic Web site claim the group headed by Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was responsible for two major attacks. One statement, signed by "Tawhid and Jihad group," said: "Thanks to God alone, a lion from the Brigades of Those Seeking Martyrdom succeeded in attacking the centre of volunteers for the renegade police apparatus."

It provided no details on the attack, but appeared to refer to a car bombing that ripped through a busy market near a Baghdad police headquarters. Another statement on the same site claimed responsibility for "striking at a vehicle that had 13 elements from the traitor police, leading to their deaths."

A group calling itself "Squads of Unification Lions" has abducted a Jordanian truck driver in Iraq and threatened to kill him unless his employer pulls out of the country within 48 hours, in a video aired on Al-Jazeera television. Footage broadcast by the Qatar-based satellite channel showed the purported hostage with three hooded gunmen, and documents identifying him as Turki Khalifah al-Breizat.

The hitherto unknown group said that it was "giving the firm employing the Jordanian driver, who admitted to ferrying fuel to the US army, 48 hours to announce it is ceasing operations in Iraq, otherwise they will kill the hostage," Al-Jazeera said.

Thank god there have been no more terrorists created by the war in Iraq. Puhh we are really lucky. Thx Condi, thx Rumsi, thx Bushie, thx Cheney, thx Powell, thx Wolfowitz. Without you the world would look much more bad today.....

[Acecombat 0]

My god is this woman really this ignorant or is she just pretending to be?

I dont think even i i could keep on lying like this with a straight face , sooner or later i'd crack.

Anyway to lighten up the mood heres some sarcastic humour in flash:

The Sort of Iraqi Govt

[Frisbee 0]

Oh, now they stepped up because he had the intention to someday, maybe, want to get his mitts on some WMD's.

Lay off the crack woman.

Funny how people can lie with a straight face, if anything we've got a comical Ali on the other side now.

[Pukko 0]

Annan for President!

Iraq war illegal, says Annan

Quote[/b] ]The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has told the BBC the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter.

He said the decision to take action in Iraq should have been made by the Security Council, not unilaterally.

"Painful lessons" have been learnt by the international community since the war in Iraq, he said.

And he feared elections planned for January would not go ahead in Iraq unless security considerably improved.

Washington's decision to go ahead with an invasion of Iraq without the backing of the Security Council and wider international support had brought painful lessons.

"Lessons for the US, the UN and other member states. I think in the end everybody's concluded it's best to work together with our allies and through the UN," Mr Annan said in an interview with the BBC World Service.

'On track'

"I hope we do not see another Iraq-type operation for a long time - without UN approval and much broader support from the international community."

"From our point of view and the [uN] charter point of view it was illegal," he added.

Well, he's not alone in hoping........ He has been quite harsh before, but this I think is the first time he called the preemptive invasion of Iraq illegal.

[BoweryBaker 0]

It was a stupid invasion. I don't want bush in office. All that aside, which of ya'll wants popsicles?

[Acecombat 0]

Annan for President!

Iraq war illegal, says Annan

Quote[/b] ]The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has told the BBC the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter.

He said the decision to take action in Iraq should have been made by the Security Council, not unilaterally.

"Painful lessons" have been learnt by the international community since the war in Iraq, he said.

And he feared elections planned for January would not go ahead in Iraq unless security considerably improved.

Washington's decision to go ahead with an invasion of Iraq without the backing of the Security Council and wider international support had brought painful lessons.

"Lessons for the US, the UN and other member states. I think in the end everybody's concluded it's best to work together with our allies and through the UN," Mr Annan said in an interview with the BBC World Service.

'On track'

"I hope we do not see another Iraq-type operation for a long time - without UN approval and much broader support from the international community."

"From our point of view and the [uN] charter point of view it was illegal," he added.

Well, he's not alone in hoping........ He has been quite harsh before, but this I think is the first time he called the preemptive invasion of Iraq illegal.

Big deal and what value does mr annans word have these days?

[billybob2002 0]

Annan for President!

Iraq war illegal, says Annan

Quote[/b] ]The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has told the BBC the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter.

He said the decision to take action in Iraq should have been made by the Security Council, not unilaterally.

"Painful lessons" have been learnt by the international community since the war in Iraq, he said.

And he feared elections planned for January would not go ahead in Iraq unless security considerably improved.

Washington's decision to go ahead with an invasion of Iraq without the backing of the Security Council and wider international support had brought painful lessons.

"Lessons for the US, the UN and other member states. I think in the end everybody's concluded it's best to work together with our allies and through the UN," Mr Annan said in an interview with the BBC World Service.

'On track'

"I hope we do not see another Iraq-type operation for a long time - without UN approval and much broader support from the international community."

"From our point of view and the [uN] charter point of view it was illegal," he added.

Well, he's not alone in hoping........ He has been quite harsh before, but this I think is the first time he called the preemptive invasion of Iraq illegal.

The skit on Dave Chappelle that was called Black Bush comes to mind about Annan and what he can do...  

[denoir 0]

Gov't Analysts Pessimistic About Iraq's Future [FOX News]

Quote[/b] ]

WASHINGTON — A highly classified National Intelligence Estimate (search) assembled by some of the government's most senior analysts this summer provided a pessimistic assessment about the future security and stability of Iraq.

The National Intelligence Council (search) looked at the political, economic and security situation in the war-torn country and determined — at best — the situation would be tenuous in terms of stability, a U.S. official said late Wednesday, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

At worst, the official said, were "trend lines that would point to a civil war."

The intelligence estimate, which was prepared for President Bush (search), considered the window of time between July and the end of 2005. But the official noted that the document, which runs about 50 pages, draws on less formal intelligence community assessments from January 2003, before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and the subsequent deteriorating security situation there.

The assessment was initiated by the National Intelligence Council, a group of senior intelligence officials who provide long-term strategic thinking for the entire U.S. intelligence community but report to the director of central intelligence. It was completed under acting CIA Director John McLaughlin (search). He and the leaders of the other intelligence agencies approved it.

...

Let's hope they are equally incompetent now in their 'intelligence' estimates as they were before the war. Problem is that then they gave TBA what it wanted to hear - it might be so now again - and that the situation is actually even worse.

ps. Funny thing, no American media seems to be taking notice of Kofi Annan's remarks.