International Politics Thread

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

You wouldn't say that if you had had the misfortune of coming across a gang of drunken Scottish football fans on a dark night.

Maybe I would, since exactly that has happened plenty of times.

Quote[/b] ]

The Scots are capable of football related violence, take the Celtic/Rangers animosity.

Not that they are any worse than us English, my point is that football violence and alcoholism are not purely English phenomena.

P.s Hello all, it has been a while!

I didn't say they were all totally perfect; I said they are very well behaved. Which they are, especially in relation to the English.

Celtic/ Rangers is a religious issue in its own right, but when the same fans go abroad they are a lot better behaved than england fans in general.

[Paratrooper 0]

You wouldn't say that if you had had the misfortune of coming across a gang of drunken Scottish football fans on a dark night.

Maybe I would, since exactly that has happened plenty of times.

Quote[/b] ]

The Scots are capable of football related violence, take the Celtic/Rangers animosity.

Not that they are any worse than us English, my point is that football violence and alcoholism are not purely English phenomena.

P.s Hello all, it has been a while!

I didn't say they were all totally perfect; I said they are very well behaved.  Which they are, especially in relation to the English.

Celtic/ Rangers is a religious issue in its own right, but when the same fans go abroad they are a lot better behaved than england fans in general.

Fair enough, the English football hooligans i agree are terrible, but drink and violence are problems all over the British Isles, not just England.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Fair enough, the English football hooligans i agree are terrible, but drink and violence are problems all over the British Isles, not just England.

We agree then

[ozanzac 0]

Ban smoking in public places, illaglise all non-medical drugs.

Way to kill a party!

Illegalising the majority of 'common' drugs, Such as alcohol, nicatine, even caffine, has the potential to create more social problems than benefits.

Unless you blind people of past liberties. There is no chance in hell that it would work. Everything would go underground, opening the doors for organised crime.

Down here, there is a much greater threat from organised crime than there is from a bunch of spaced out bongheads learning to use hydroponics in the comfort and safety of their own home. On top of that, I've never met an angry stoner. Mischievous, yes. But violent. No.

Just because some people can't hold their liquor, or habits to within reason, is no reason to take them away from all. I kid you not, on that mentality alone. Everything even remotely enjoyable would have the potential to be banned. And the world would be a very boring place.

[DarkLight 0]

It is already illegal so no reason required mate, but you need reasons to make it legal. And no i don't think its a good idea

Why do you think it is a bad idea then?

Because it has been proved people who smoke marijuana reguarly get mental issues (or greater risk) later on in life. I know you are going to say well its there life so they can do what they want but thats why we have laws and nobody can do what they like.

Also when people get "high" they are bigger problem then people who are not on the drug.  Trust me I know alot of people, some of them (minority) smoke weed the rest don't and I can tell you the people who smoke weed cause trouble and is the problems Tony Blair talked about in is speech on crime.

edit: I just read your post. My brother went on a school trip to France and he said there were some Dutch kids smoking weed but they were really causing trouble, if i went over and they were causing trouble near me i would of smacked them

Just because your friends cause problems when they're high doesn't mean that everyone does that.  I know plenty of people who cause no trouble when they've smoked a joint.  

Of course no human being is the same...

Who said they were my friends?

Nobody, i didn't think about it...

Oh well... that isn't what it's about anyway...

[Bordoy 0]

Ban smoking in public places, illaglise all non-medical drugs.

Way to kill a party!

Illegalising the majority of 'common' drugs, Such as alcohol, nicatine, even caffine, has the potential to create more social problems than benefits.

Unless you blind people of past liberties. There is no chance in hell that it would work. Everything would go underground, opening the doors for organised crime.

Down here, there is a much greater threat from organised crime than there is from a bunch of spaced out bongheads learning to use hydroponics in the comfort and safety of their own home. On top of that, I've never met an angry stoner. Mischievous, yes. But violent. No.

Just because some people can't hold their liquor, or habits to within reason, is no reason to take them away from all. I kid you not, on that mentality alone. Everything even remotely enjoyable would have the potential to be banned. And the world would be a very boring place.

Oh yer i understood what i put, i didn't mean that at all.

Quote[/b] ]Seeing footage from "normal" behaviour in britains inner cities during the weekend nights makes me believe you have more of a problem with alcohol abuse as a nation then with people who like to smoke weed.

Is that because in the UK weed is illegal and alcohol isn't?

Quote[/b] ]Trust me, I know more people that smoke(d) weed than you.

Well obviously, seeing as you live in that country.

Quote[/b] ]P.s Hello all, it has been a while!

Hello

[DarkLight 0]

Quote[/b] ]Seeing footage from "normal" behaviour in britains inner cities during the weekend nights makes me believe you have more of a problem with alcohol abuse as a nation then with people who like to smoke weed.

Is that because in the UK weed is illegal and alcohol isn't?

It's because ppl who smoke weed don't have the incredible urge to run around and beat eachother up.  They prefer sitting in their chair, a nice calm spot is what they like.

It's also because it isn't allowed to run around stoned while nobody really cares about who is(n't) drunk in public.

It's not because they make something legal that it will become a problem.  Check out holland, smoking weed is legal there and you don't see stoned people running around (acting like assholes) all over the country.

You cannot compare weed with alcohol like you do, it doesn't have the same effect.  Actually alcohol should be banned for making ppl aggressive and weed should be legalised because it makes you happy and nice

And is it really such a disaster that some ppl sometimes are drunk or stoned?  Sheesh what's the fucking problem?  As long as ppl know their limits everything is ok!

Sad enough, not everyone knows their limits.  With alcohol this makes you do rather strange stuff, with weed you just get too damn tired and you fall asleep...

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Quote[/b] ]Trust me, I know more people that smoke(d) weed than you.

Well obviously, seeing as you live in that country.

I'm from the UK, not Holland.

[Brutal_Impact 0]

They wanna ban all non-medicine drugs??? AND NO SMOKING IN PUBLIC!?!?!??!?!

WTF ARE THEY SMOKING!

I dont think god himself could stop Europeans from smoking in public places.

I hope the Netherlands pulls out of the EU  

[Bordoy 0]

Quote[/b] ]Trust me, I know more people that smoke(d) weed than you.

Well obviously, seeing as you live in that country.

I'm from the UK, not Holland.

oh sorry mate i got the impression that you was

Quote[/b] ]They wanna ban all non-medicine drugs??? AND NO SMOKING IN PUBLIC!?!?!??!?!

WTF ARE THEY SMOKING!

I dont think god himself could stop Europeans from smoking in public places.

I hope the Netherlands pulls out of the EU

they are smoking weed which is what we been talking bout for long time now so..............................

[xawery 0]

Because it has been proved people who smoke marijuana reguarly get mental issues (or greater risk) later on in life.

This is simply not true. Research has suggested that there  isa possibility where regular usage of large amounts of marihuana could increase the probability (not CAUSE!) of psychoses manifesting themselves during the latter stages of one's life. This has a somewhat different meaning than the assertion you have presented us with, wouldn't you concur?

Besides, considering the fact that alcohol can cause the Korsakoff syndrome and smoking causes cancer (direct causality!) we should be banning all non-medicinal drugs if we want to keep marihuana illegal and be consistent at the same time. I don't see that happening, do you?

Quote[/b] ]Also when people get "high" they are bigger problem then people who are not on the drug.  

Sure. Incidentally, this is true for *any* drug. Alcohol, tobacco, caffeine even. Let's ban them too. The Prohibition was just swell, don't you think?

On a (comical) side note... I must say that I find spending time with people who have never touched drugs on grounds of them being "bad, m'kay" much more problematic than being in the company of people who are able to make an informed decision. They tend to be less... dogmatic. In other words, "bigger problem" is a very relative term;)

To answer your question to my last post... no, I am not in favour of illegalising marihuana. I do not use it, I am aware of its hazards, as well as the hazards of other substances being regularly consumend by our society. I choose to live this way. If you let decennia-old drug-scare propaganda guide you, you can't claim to have made a choice.

regards,

X.

[denoir 0]

Looks like we've got ourself our very own version of Ashcroft   :

EU panel opposes justice nominee [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]

A European Parliament committee has narrowly voted to oppose Italian Rocco Buttiglione as the EU's next Justice commissioner, officials say.

Correspondents say Mr Buttiglione's views on issues such as homosexuality and the role of women have prompted unease at the commission.

The nominee, who is Italian European Affairs Minister, was set to take office at the commission on 1 November. The move, by the Civil Liberties Committee, is not binding.

But Jean-Louis Bourlanges, a French liberal MEP in charge of the EU's parliamentary committees, said the verdict "signifies the refusal of the nomination of Mr Buttiglione".

The Civil Liberties Committee voted 27 to 26 against Mr Buttiglione's appointment as justice commissioner. They then voted 28 to 25 against Mr Buttiglione's re-appointment to another post within the commission. However, the European Parliament does not have the power to veto individual members of the commission, instead voting for or against the entire 25-strong team. The parliament will vote on the new commission on 27 October.

'Traditional vision'

Mr Buttiglione, a devout Roman Catholic said to be close to the Pope, has expressed strong opinions on the role of women in modern society. "The family exists in order to allow women to have children and to have the protection of a male who takes care of them," he said.

"This is the traditional vision of marriage that I defend."

Johannes Swoboda, an Austrian social democrat who is vice-chairman of the socialist group in the European Parliament, was influential in marshalling opposition to Mr Buttiglione's appointment.

"Mr Buttiglione made it clear that his private opinions will influence the way he will handle the portfolio," he told the BBC's Europe Today programme. "This is a very sensitive portfolio which is dealing with discrimination and non-discrimination.

"A man who openly discriminates against homosexuals and who is openly for reducing the role of women cannot deal with these affairs in the commission," he added. German conservative MEP Eva Klampt denied that Mr Buttiglione would let his personal beliefs influence his policy-making.

"I believe he is the right man for the right job. This is really discrimination against a man who has a personal religious belief. "He made it very clear there should be no discrimination for anyone, not for homosexuality, not for race or for religion."

The EU's philosopher-commissioner [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]

Rocco Buttiglione, Italy's surprise choice as the European Union's new commissioner for Justice, Freedom and Security, has already raised some eyebrows in Brussels. Mr Buttiglione is a philosopher-politician, a man equally at home giving an ethics seminar as discussing practical solutions to Europe's immigration issues.

The 56-year-old Christian Democrat has been Italy's European Affairs minister since 2001. A father of four, he is a devoted, God-fearing Roman Catholic and a professor of political sciences in Rome.

His ties with the Vatican are so close he is considered to be one of the closest friends and counsellors of Pope John Paul II. He has even written a book delving into the mind of the man who became the head of the Catholic Church. But Mr Buttiglione's views on some of the topics in his new portfolio - including immigration and security - have raised uneasy murmurings at the Commission.

Personal or public?

As he faced a three-hour grilling by members of the European Parliament, Mr Buttiglione sought to make clear that his personal beliefs will not influence his public politics.

"Many things may be considered immoral which should not be prohibited," he said as he was quizzed on his views of homosexuality.

"I may think that homosexuality is a sin, and this has no effect on politics, unless I say that homosexuality is a crime."

Yet a man who has often taken a conservative stance on many sensitive political issues - opposing artificial insemination and abortion - said there were some things the state should leave well alone.

"The state has no right to stick its nose into these things and nobody can be discriminated against on the basis of sexual orientation... this stands in the Charter of Human Rights, this stands in the Constitution and I have pledged to defend this constitution," he said.

'No blind eye'

But it is on the subject of immigration that Mr Buttiglione really has the capacity to get people hot under the collar. Calling the situation a "humanitarian crisis" he defended his country's much-criticised decision to deport many of the thousands of would-be immigrants who arrive on its shores each year.

"This is not an expulsion. It is a refusal for entry at the border, which is in accordance with international law," he told his audience. He has been a vocal supporter of Germany's and Italy's plans to set up processing centres in North Africa for people seeking asylum in the EU, although he stressed that the centres would provide humanitarian relief.

Ambition

He also suggested that EU representatives could be sent out to the centres to advise those seeking asylum on the rights and to weed out fake applicants.

Heading to Brussels has always been Mr Buttiglione's ambition. He is quoted as telling Italy's La Corriere della Sera newspaper that, "I may be a nobody in Italy, but in Europe I will be someone."

Now, as one of the Commission's 25 new policy-makers, he will have a real chance to shape the European Union's policy and direction. But judging from the worried reactions of several members of the EU legislature, this will be no easy task.

great  

[vektorboson 8]

This adds to the fact that the church complains about the European Constitution not mentioning God. I hope that there won't be more of this type who regard things like homosexuality as a sin.

And this again shows, that the parliament needs more power, or better that the parliament needs any power at all.

[denoir 0]

Indeed. The trend is positive though in that respect: the parliament is getting more power while the comission is getting less. With the new constitution it's going to be even better.

It's too bad that (for now) the parliament can't reject individual comission members but has to reject or accept them all.

[Supah 0]

I see the oposition of many of my countrymen to Turkey joining the EU. I see the opposition of the ruling party (a christian conservative party) to Turkey joining the EU. Its all based on "Their muslims and they haven't seperated the church from the state" and calling their culture backwards. Well if we allow crackpots who think abortions are bad because some guy told them a supreme being thinks its bad into office what better are we? Immigration ... after Poland and the other countries from the east joined we didn't get innundated in immigrants as was predicted ... people know that joining the EU will improve the situation in their own country so why leave? I have no worries about that being the same with turkey.

[kavoven 4]

I'm following this news since yesterdays, they want to gather signatures from the people, to show the government that they don't want Turkey to join the EU.

I think this is the worst way of doing it, and first it won't stop the whole joining process and second it will make the ditch between the the cultures even larger. But the point is, that many people don't want Turkey to join the EU, too.

[Blake 0]

I do believe Turkey should be allowed to join the EU eventually, but there are various issues over there that need to be rooted out before joining...Like in Kurdish areas people are not allowed to talk in Kurdish on local TV and are allowed only to sing in Kurdish. That's hardly meeting the EU criteri although I understand it is a sensitive issue there. But better to take care of the issues beforehand than start wrestling within EU once Turkey has joined. That would be far worse option in my opinion.

[kavoven 4]

I do believe Turkey should be allowed to join the EU eventually, but there are various issues over there that need to be rooted out before joining...Like in Kurdish areas people are not allowed to talk in Kurdish on local TV and are allowed only to sing in Kurdish. That's hardly meeting the EU criteri although I understand it is a sensitive issue there. But better to take care of the issues beforehand than start wrestling within EU once Turkey has joined. That would be far worse option in my opinion.

Yes, there are indeed many things which have to be changed, until Turkey is ready to join, but the way the conservative want to do it is simply wrong, they just don't want to give Turkey a chance.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yes, there are indeed many things which have to be changed, until Turkey is ready to join, but the way the conservative want to do it is simply wrong, they just don't want to give Turkey a chance.

It´s a dirty trik called "populism". They want to create fears among germans that Abdullah from the Döner shop will chop them apart once turkey joins the EU. It´s a dirty move and not surprisingly it´s coming from the CSU and the CDU gladly hops onto the "we are in fear" train.....

For sure turkey needs to fix their positions to a lot of issues before they are ready for the EU and I can´t see that happen in short future also, but they are already turning their system towards EU in several ways, so in longterm they will most likely get members, but that´s still a long way to go.

It´s disgusting to see some politicians abuse the turkey case in the way they try right now.

They ignore one thing all over. Germany would not be here today without the help of turkish workers who helped germany to rebuild in the 50´s and 60´s and 70´s.

[vektorboson 8]

It´s a dirty trik called "populism".

Not only this; it's not only disgusting because of the fear they spread, it's also disgusting how our politicians (ab)use our democracy and (ab)use the population.

The consevatives want to start a Pseudo-Referendum about Turkey (Pseudo-Referendum means collecting autographs from the population). But when someone really demands a German-wide Referendum, they all tell it's not wise or the German constitution does not allow it (well actually it does not forbide them, too).

German politicians don't trust the German population in general, but they are good enough if they should vote, or when it comes for populistic issues as Turkey.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

I do believe Turkey should be allowed to join the EU eventually, but there are various issues over there that need to be rooted out before joining...Like in Kurdish areas people are not allowed to talk in Kurdish on local TV and are allowed only to sing in Kurdish. That's hardly meeting the EU criteri although I understand it is a sensitive issue there. But better to take care of the issues beforehand than start wrestling within EU once Turkey has joined. That would be far worse option in my opinion.

Another issue that needs sorting are the continuous Turkish incursions into our airspace. We shot one of them down in '96, we almost shot two of them down a few days before the Olympics, and today we had to chase them out again.

If Turkey wants to be in the EU, they have to stop harrassing us!

[vektorboson 8]

http://www.hri.org/news/greek/mpab/2004/04-10-12.mpab.html#05

Quote[/b] ]

[05] GREEK AIRSPACE VIOLATIONS BY TURKISH JETS

Athens, 12 October 2004 (17:49 UTC+2)

Turkish fighter jets violated the Greek National Airspace today in the wider region of central Aegean.

According to the National Defense General Staff, 5 formations made up of 12 F16 Turkish Air Force aircraft violated the Greek National Airspace in 14 occasions in the wider region of central Aegean and once over the island of Antipsara at an altitude of 5,000 feet.

The Turkish jets were armed in 4 instances and were all intercepted by Greek aircraft while 4 dogfights took place.

Dogfights?

I knew that Greece and Turkey are at some kind of "Cold War", but they actually dogfight?

Edit: Posted accidentially News from 2002 where Turkish F-16s where in Greece airspace, too.

[DarkLight 0]

Also when people get "high" they are bigger problem then people who are not on the drug.  Trust me I know alot of people, some of them (minority) smoke weed the rest don't and I can tell you the people who smoke weed cause trouble and is the problems Tony Blair talked about in is speech on crime.

Ok i had to reply...

The fact that those weed smoking ppl that you know cause trouble doesn't have a lot to do with the weed smoking part if you ask me.

You sound like someone who obviously doesn't have a lot of experience about what weed really is.

Sad enough, we can say the same about a big part of the world. Parents freaking out because THEIR DRUG ADDICT SON HAS SMOKED A JOINT!!! OH MY GOD CALL THE FBIIII!!!! (smell the irony)

First of all... Getting high means that you feel like flying, you're full of enery and you want to DO something. This doesn't mean that you want to beat someone up. Basically you hop around with a big smile on your face...

As far as i know, ppl don't get high that much when smoking weed. Weed makes you stoned. Stoned means that you get very very tired. Close your eyes for 2 minutes and you'll probably fall asleep. A stoned person is someone with small, red eyes who's sitting in his chair watching cartoons, eating a lot and not wanting to stand up... If someone is stoned, that person is waaay too tired and hungry to cause problems.

Ppl that are stoned because of a joint (weed) are simply too damn tired to cause problems.

Second of all, weed isn't like alcohol.

Most drunk ppl don't have the slightest idea of what is acceptable and what not. They cause problems, they smell like alcohol, they start fights, they throw up all over the place, they have hangovers, they don't know what they're doing, they don't remember what they've done,...

Alcohol changes someone completely, you talk complete crap and you do things that are very embarrassing. Why? Because you can't control your body when drunk...

Weed however doesn't do that. No matter how stoned/high/whatever you are, you'll always have a 'clear' mind. You'll always know what you're doing and you'll always know what you've done. Some details might be a bit harder to remember... Sure you'll probably laugh a little faster and you won't be able to do math problems or stuff like that but it's not like that causes trouble, right?

So... If someone causes problems because he/she has smoked weed than as far as i know, it's their own freakin' fault. If you do stupid stuff while drunk you can say "i didn't know what i was doing!"

WHen stoned you cannot say this. Weed doesn't do that.

You simply don't do stuff without thinking, if you cause problems when stoned then the only thing you can blame is yourself...

Quote[/b] ]edit: I just read your post. My brother went on a school trip to France and he said there were some Dutch kids smoking weed but they were really causing trouble, if i went over and they were causing trouble near me i would of smacked them

Wtf? I see ppl causing trouble every fucking day!!

Does that mean that we're all drug addicts?

fuck no!

Those dutch kids just were some stupid morons who cause trouble no matter what...

Just a bunch of pathetic losers...

Smoking weed is like getting tipsy, you know perfectly well what you're doing. You can still control your body.

Logically seen, alcohol should be illegal and not weed...

Alcohol completely changes someone and it causes a huuuuuuge amount of deaths each year...

But i wouldn't want it to become illegal. I like a good beer

Sheeeeeesh...

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Dogfights?

I knew that Greece and Turkey are at some kind of "Cold War", but they actually dogfight?

Look around on Kazaa, there's a video of a dogfight, that's from 1996 when a Turkish 2-seater plane was shot down. Neat side info: co-pilot was israeli. This happened a few weeks after the whole Imia thing, thank god the press didn't know about it

[kavoven 4]

http://www.hri.org/news/greek/mpab/2004/04-10-12.mpab.html#05

Quote[/b] ]

[05] GREEK AIRSPACE VIOLATIONS BY TURKISH JETS

Athens, 12 October 2004 (17:49 UTC+2)

Turkish fighter jets violated the Greek National Airspace today in the wider region of central Aegean.

According to the National Defense General Staff, 5 formations made up of 12 F16 Turkish Air Force aircraft violated the Greek National Airspace in 14 occasions in the wider region of central Aegean and once over the island of Antipsara at an altitude of 5,000 feet.

The Turkish jets were armed in 4 instances and were all intercepted by Greek aircraft while 4 dogfights took place.

Dogfights?

I knew that Greece and Turkey are at some kind of "Cold War", but they actually dogfight?

Edit: Posted accidentially News from 2002 where Turkish F-16s where in Greece airspace, too.

Interesting, aren't both countries in the NATO? I think these situations are very embarassing for both nations.