A plea to addon makers

[sputnik monroe 102]

I must confide I'm a bit sick to death of having to tune every single unit I download. I wish the addon community was organized and worked together. As it is there are too many weapon packs out there containing the same weapons. Not to mention duplicate mods. Rather than making 50 mods that fall a inch short of perfection, why don't all the teams out there making the same kind of mod just work together? Just a suggestion, not meant as a flame or anything.

   I'm amazed at the stuff addon makers have made. But just imagine what could be made if they put aside their petty rivalries and egos and worked together. This game needs to be more like Falcon 4.0. By all accounts I've heard every one works together as one team and it's now the king of Modern Flight sims. Not bad for a game that's over 5 years old.

    Any how this is just a plea for all the talented addon makers out there. Please put aside your differences and work together. If standards and compatiblity are set and every one works together this game can become the king of combat simulators.

    Just a few pointers,

1.  There has to be a standard universal system like JAM implimentd for tank weapons and armor.  Their should be one for Aircraft also.

2. A new version of JAM perhaps? All the major Addon groups should get together and work on it. Lately it seems most people prefer Earl and Sucheys weapons or inquisitors. A JAM3 could use new weapon models by S&E and Inquisitor and others. Perhaps throw in some new weapons also and now your talking.

3. The major teams should work together. How many versions of the exact same weapon do we need? For example the AK74M? Do we need three versions of the AK74M that all use incompatible magazines? Of course not it destroys the game. Teams need to get together and decide who is making what. If after that if they still decide we need 50 more AK74M's and M4s then they should make them all use the same magazine.

4. This has been stated before, but addon teams need more mission makers. I can make missions for myself that are decent, but not every one can. A lot of people rely on other people to make missions. Trust me more people will use your shiny addons if there are missions that use them.

5. Rivalries must end.

6. A consensus should be reached on a standard system for all kinds of ammunitions, armor values and so forth. Once that is established websites should only host addons that follow the rules. Any addon that doesn't pass quality and standards or refuses to will not be hosted.

7. Perhaps their should be several standards so you know what your getting for example...

A. Wargames standard

B. Bis Standard

C. JAM standard

D. That other teams standard

   When you go to download a addon there are 4 versions for download, one for each standard. That way you know what your getting. So if your more into wargames league then you download the version of the new unit that matches its stats but if your more into the Bis's standard you dl that version.

   Any how I hope this spurs something positive. Once again it's not meant as a flame but as advice. So no one has the right to gte defensive over this ( since I'm not on the offensive )

[NZXSHADOWS 0]

Sounds good,

[dinger 1]

1. I don't think there can be. OFP has a relatively simple damage system and yet there are mods for weapons and weapon systems from vastly different eras. How do you make a sherman and an abrams tank work according to the same scale, yet prevent a grenade from killing one or the other?

2. WGL also uses Inquisitor's weapons, but has converted all jpg textures to .paas for better performance. The problem with JAM, in my uninformed opinion, is that there never was a single authority that dictated functionality.

3. First, many people make addons for their own enjoyment. For example, we at CoC are working on a Tomahawk cruise missile. I'm not going to come out and say that some other group souldn't release a Tomahawk. The fun in addonmaking is the creation. Second, sadly, not everyone has the same talent. Do I want to say to someone who enjoys working on OFP and enjoys making addons that "you suck as an addonmaker, therefore you only get to make the crappy and obscure stuff nobody wants to use?"

4. No objection here. An addon is not complete until it has a cool mission featuring it.

5. As long as there is a community that considers some groups "better" than others, and as long as people make addons for public adulation, there will be rivalries. Rivalries are not always unhealthy. They spur innovation.

6. See #1. You won't reach consensus. Worse, there's a dirty secret here, and that is that for OFP addons, there are two communities: A) the one that plays the game, and B) the one that plays with addons. A) usually depends on B) for the information on what to play. Many members of B judge a quality of an addon by taking it out on desert island and blowing stuff up with it. Simplicity and lethality are heavily favored. So to get an addon noticed, there's usually lethality inflation.

7. WGL has a standard, but it is one that's a little particular: armor values are generally below the default BIS values. BIS's "Standard" really isn't consistent, but it's close. with Unified Artillery 1.0, we tried to follow the BIS standard. With 1_1, we will adhere to the WGL standard. That means the explosions will be slightly bigger, but the armor values will be lower. For most UA applications, it won't be noticeable.

I am not, however, going to make separate addons for each standard. I'd like to but:

a) bandwidth is costly. 4 standards mean 4 times the bandwidth.

b) 4 standards mean 4 sets of config.cpps to debug. That's a royal pita.

[Major Fubar 0]

Checking my stopwatch to see how long before this thread bursts into flames...

...and before it does, please read my sig.

[Guest]

Nice idea, but here's a couple of problems:

1. It's a bit late for a lot of this stuff.

2. I'll just get in contact with every single addon maker. BRB (in 2005).

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]I am not, however, going to make separate addons for each standard. I'd like to but:

a) bandwidth is costly. 4 standards mean 4 times the bandwidth.

b) 4 standards mean 4 sets of config.cpps to debug. That's a royal pita.

    Ok point taken. Perhaps websites could at least post what standard the addon is balanced to?

     

Quote[/b] ]Checking my stopwatch to see how long before this thread bursts into flames...

    Personally I can't see any reason for this to turn into a flame war. If some one can't handle advice and throws a tantrum maybe they should be banned, rather than the whole thread closed.  I see where your coming from though, post like this usually seem to degenerate.

[One 0]

not alot of people play online anyways, no one makes good missions anymore, so i dont even see what the point is.

take what you can get, and be thankful. i am. we're all lucky as it is anyways.

but maybe since you said sputnik, you have to tune every addon, maybe someone can create a tool that can work weapon load outs for you.. help you standardize things yourself for missions/servers, etc. something that can put custom/standard weapons and mags in with a few simple clicks. thats what we need...what do you all think? is it possible?

[Messiah 2]

don't agree with 5... friendly rivalry (as dinger said) spawns better and better innovations and addons - if BAS had no rivals, we probally would not see half the stuff we see today

[Major Fubar 0]

Quote[/b] ]Checking my stopwatch to see how long before this thread bursts into flames...

    Personally I can't see any reason for this to turn into a flame war. If some one can't handle advice and throws a tantrum maybe they should be banned, rather than the whole thread closed.  I see where your coming from though, post like this usually seem to degenerate.

It's a sad fact that a few (and only a few) addonmakers can't handle even constructive criticism or suggestions; and some board members can't make criticisms or suggestions without being rude and/or sarcastic.

If both sides are reasonable about it, there is no reason this thread should become a flamefest...still, if I were a betting man    

[benu 1]

I think it is sad that all the "standardisation projects" i had so big hopes for didn't get the recognition they deserved, like eg jam or ecp.

I really had hoped that other mods could be incorporated into ecp as "plugin", similar to the ecp configs for inq weapons or dynamic range, so you could enable eg finmod, csla and ecp at once without having to reboot the server all the time.

Or that addon makers used jam more often so weapons from different addon makers can interchange magazines in missions.

I would also be in favour of a public textures library, where addon makers add their new textures for others to use. Similar to jam, but for all kind of textures. This would have several advantages:

-smaller addons for everyone as all would share one set of textures which is updated whenever new textures are added to it by any team

-other addon makers could reuse the textures for a) making more versions (eg wood/snow/desert/etc) of their addon with less work and b) better looks ingame when mixing addons of several addon makers.

All this would make the playing experience for the people actually USING all those addons in missions and on servers much better imho.

[Guest]

The problem with ECP and JAM as standards is that they just aren't right for every project. Don't get me wrong, I think they both excellent projects, but they can't cover every possible need.

[Lt_Phoenix 0]

This I've mentioned before, but here I go again.....

Standarized readme's with the following:

1. OFPEC-Tag_Addon-name_Readme

2. How to install and use

3. Other addons needed, or need to be removed

4. Classnames (Weapons and ammo)

In fact quite often the addons don't even have a readme, which I find frustrating at times, and end up deleting the addon.

And I'd also like to see the addons AAE, but

NOT WITH INSTALLERS that automaticly decide where the addons are put and decide to add things in the startmenu

[Hit_Sqd_Day 0]

Hi all,

i like the idea of the first post, but its up to everybody else which team or teams he joins.

What i more wanted to they is, since Inquisitor got mentined for the JAM compatibilty. Inquisitors weapons migth look cool, but they have MP, so i doubt anybody uses them for MP missions as mentioned in diffrent threats here. When i read the threat about his SR25 (jpg textures), you really lost some of your reputation to me. As people suggest you to compile the jpgs into paa formats, you stated it would be wasted time.

Well for me and lot others that makes downloading your addons just wasted time.

at least the textures should be in standart format as its mostly is, to improve framerate on MP games.

Same goes for some other addons which have MP issues. Like some of the Vid planes.

If you guys need a dedicated server where you can test your new betas or whatever addons, make a test mission and we can always test it out:)

Therefore my icq: 105026747

Have fun guys.

Daywalker

[Grizzlie 0]

First of all i want to say i'm not MP player.

But i would write with two hands declaration of unify

With JAM or ECP is one problem which can be clearly stated - sound. Alot of addon or mod makers r trying to find most realistic one for their weapon.

With ECP - hmm name it "taste" - for some those effects r too "hollywoodish", for other just right, ect.

Setting one standard would be connected with some "sacrifice" from addonmakers.

With weapons i think would be best if it would be possible to aggre which already existing set is best and create one mod who could develop ONLY for instance small arms to use for ALL other mods, but i doubt if it is possible...

Same is with textures library. One mod making only textures on demand, otherwise it would be a big mess with library like this.

[Donnervogel 0]

Quote[/b] ]2. A new version of JAM perhaps? All the major Addon groups should get together and work on it. Lately it seems most people prefer Earl and Sucheys weapons or inquisitors. A JAM3 could use new weapon models by S&E and Inquisitor and others. Perhaps throw in some new weapons also and now your talking.

Just a little mention. JAM was not meant to standardise weapon models. It was quite the opposite. Jam was meant to standardise the ammo which would allow every addon team to use their own models but the same ammo/magazine values and the magazines would be exchangeable between the different versions of the same weapon.

[Footmunch 0]

Some snippage is applied:

I must confide I'm a bit sick to death of having to tune every single unit I download. I wish the addon community was organized and worked together.

   I'm amazed at the stuff addon makers have made. But just imagine what could be made if they put aside their petty rivalries and egos and worked together. This game needs to be more like Falcon 4.0. By all accounts I've heard every one works together as one team and it's now the king of Modern Flight sims. Not bad for a game that's over 5 years old.

Then you've heard wrong. The fights between F4UT and

FreeFalcon are _legendary_. Before that, it was RP versus

ERazor, and so on.

Quote[/b] ]

1.  There has to be a standard universal system like JAM implimentd for tank weapons and armor.  Their should be one for Aircraft also.

The aircraft 'JAM' is happening, behind the scenes

Quote[/b] ]

4. This has been stated before, but addon teams need more mission makers. I can make missions for myself that are decent, but not every one can. A lot of people rely on other people to make missions. Trust me more people will use your shiny addons if there are missions that use them.

I will hold my hand up and say this is one of the major faults

in my addons. However, I think it has to be noted that

addon making and mission making are two different skill-sets.

It's not often that one goes with the other.

Quote[/b] ]

5. Rivalries must end.

I think you missed a smily here.... . Never gonna happen.

Quote[/b] ]

6. A consensus should be reached on a standard system for all kinds of ammunitions, armor values and so forth. Once that is established websites should only host addons that follow the rules. Any addon that doesn't pass quality and standards or refuses to will not be hosted.

As an 'independent' addon maker, I've always assumed that

you can't guarantee what other addons yours will be working

with. Hence, it is best to stick to the BIS values only, as they

are the only possible baseline.

If someone wants to re-normalise the armour values, in my

opinion, it is up to them to update all the units that they want

to include, and build up a list of the units that are 'valid'. If

they want a 3rd party addon in this new scenario, they will

have to contact the author/s and request permission.

Forcing the addon maker to conform to four standard sets is

_exactly_ the wrong way to go, IMHO.

PS - I'd like to personally recommend the MP testing service

mentioned by Hit_Sqd.

[Bobcatt666 0]

Yeah how do we know your standards are even remotely correct? And the demanding part is less than likely to achieve the desiered results of trying to force an addon maker to follow your standards.

Personally I dislike most of the so called 'config kiddies' that are running around. One, the mear aspect most of them are rude, that cheerfully hack into folks addons/mods and blatently harp about it, even the they never bothered asking for the ok to do so. So far WG is only one that started to ear any respect and support from the mod groups. Mostly because they bother with communication rather than make demands.

Being on a mod team and addon maker I know there are a fair number of mods that share deveoplment and tends to keep things a bit more compatable. Often a number of the addon makers bounce about between mod to mod helping.

This is behind the sceens work you players never see, or allowed to take part in mainly cause it would mire the addon makers having to stop the work to answer tons of questions over and over again. Hell I could rattle of another lists to make a FAC out of repeated questions and demands of the 'config kiddies' Maybe should do like WC and form a 'config kiddies mod team'

[drow 0]

Rather than making 50 mods that fall a inch short of perfection, why don't all the teams out there making the same kind of mod just work together?

Not every mod team wants to cooperate, even tho you may both be working on the same thing... thats people i guess, dont want to loose credit i suppose.

I tried to get a Gigantic Vietnam mod commune together, name it something all inclusive like "VIETNAM conflict" or something, then have all our nam mods as seperate identities inside of it, where we could all choose different eras of the war to work on, and each mod creates a certain number of addons etc. but sometimes people get stuck in their ways...

In fact i dont think we have cooperated with anyone from any other nam mods to date... and im sure i asked them all.

So sometimes you just gotta say fuck the world, hunker down & be independant.

edit - im going to post a thread and see what happens, i never posted the proposition on the official forums...

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]Personally I dislike most of the so called 'config kiddies' that are running around.  One, the mear aspect most of them are rude, that cheerfully hack into folks addons/mods and blatently harp about it, even the they never bothered asking for the ok to do so.

    I really don't see what is so rude about people tweaking stuff for their own enjoyment. How is it any different from "Removeallweapons this; etc" in the init fields of units? It's not like they are releasing the stuff.

    Personally I think the ability to tweak an addon to one's personal taste makes the said addon more popular to people. If people aren't allowed to tweak something to their own preference then they are only going to keep the addons that they like %100 from the get go. If I couldn't have tweaked the weapon load outs on the addons I have, I would have gotten rid of probably %90 of them.  

    Personally I see it the same way as buying a car. I see a car and I think, "wow I like this car all it needs is a cup holder and new stereo". Now If General Motors encrypts their car so  I can't do that then fine I'm going to delete it and look elsewhere. I'll just go buy Suchey & Earls car and put a Kenwood stereo in it.

    Luckily General Motors doesn't take it as a personal afront before god and man to tweak their products. That and I don't have to ask their permission to do such a trivial deed.

    Do you see what I'm saying? Or am I still just a stupid "config Kiddy".  (By the way this isn't a flame it's a debate)

[Tactician 0]

The problem: many different people have many different opinions on what the standard should be. For example, many people have complaints about JAM sounds, recoils, etc. Others have complaints about ECP's stability and efficiency.

We're trying to present WGL as a better platform for standardization in the future (that means it'll be easier to adapt addons to WGL "numbers"). Progress is being made..

[hellfish6 7]

I like how the WGL addons kind of seemed to come out of nowhere and all of a sudden created this kind of respected standard within the community. Now I'm hearing from all kinds of other established addon makers that they're working on WGL-compliant versions or are collaborating with WGL in some way. It's heartening to see.

Maybe WGL is the wave of the future?

[dinger 1]

I wouldn't be so harsh on "config kiddies". Someone who actually knows how to set up a config.cpp properly is a rarity in OFP, and an oft-overlooked one. THat's why we have so many standardization problems.

Heh. WGL only seemed to come out of nowhere. We've been working with WGL for over a year. I know many other groups likewise have been involved in one way or another with the WGL project for some time. It's just the nature of the WGL crew that they quietly work away, assembling the pieces, then present the revolution as a fait accompli.

[Meathead 0]

Why dont someone just take the initiative to do the standard-izing themselves? let addon makers do there addons then once an addon is done ask permission to include the said person or groups addon into your new standarizing. recruit your own people to actually rework the addons to fit into what ever standard your trying to follow. This way an addon maker doesnt have to do the work of conforming to a standard, and has the choice to decide if he supports it, and if people like it they use it if not no big deal.

It would kinda be like a Mod that "Contracted" use of other addons

[DanAK47 1]

People making 20 different M4s isn't a problem.. It's people using 20 different M4s in a mission.

[sputnik monroe 102]

I think there should be compliation made. Perhaps one just called "Operation Flashpoint Unofficial addon pack". It could include up to 200 megs of the best addons. This way more missions could be made that use addons as it would be easier for people to get the required addons. For example a mission or campaign might read "requires OFP unofficial addon pack 1.5".

    Basically it would be kind of like having a total conversion mod. What do you say people?