ODOL Explorer v2.0

[JGreyNemo 0]

Also, copyright is limited.  In that it needs to be maintained, and registered at a copyright office, all of which comes at a fee

Maybe in Australia, but here in Finland there is no such thing as a copyright office. Anything I create is automatically copyrighted to me, and I do not need to maintain it, it automatically lasts for 70 years after my death.

Quote[/b] ]If you want your copyright protected internationally you will need to lodge your application in EVERY country you want it to be protected in.

The very point of the Berne convention is, that you do _not_ need to do so. Though while it can be difficult to sue anyone from another country for copyright infringement, its still a very "powerful" way of getting your point across to internet service providers for example who are hosting files you own copyright(in your country) for. Especially large backbone operators have specific abuse email addresses to where you can report such activity, and they do care.

Quote[/b] ]BERNE Covention only covers print and some music media but NO REAL PROTECTION for DIGITAL MEDIA.

That's incorrect, quoting the actual convention:

Quote[/b] ]The expression "literary and artistic works" shall include every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression, such as books, pamphlets and other writings; lectures, addresses, sermons and other works of the same nature; dramatic or dramatico-musical works; choreographic works and entertainments in dumb show; musical compositions with or without words; cinematographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to cinematography; works of drawing, painting, architecture, sculpture, engraving and lithography; photographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to photography; works of applied art; illustrations, maps, plans, sketches and three-dimensional works relative to geography, topography, architecture or science.

(emphasis mine)

You bring up good points Kegety

But I must stress that copyright does still need to be enforced by a registered copyright agent.  Which is expensive.  Maintaining copyright unfortunately isn't an free individual right as much as we'd like it do be.  And in Finland yes your copyright may not need to be registered.  But if somebody does infringe on your copyright and they come from another country this does pose a problem that only the power of copyright agents can apply.

Also with the Berne Convention you need to make sure the country is a member of the WIPO, as if it is not the Berne Convention does not come into effect unless perhaps you do use the ISP method etc.  And you must note that unless the country is a full signatory to this convention that many of the newer amendments and interpretations (ie the "whatever may be the mode or form of its expression") then these rights do not apply.  Protocols and Conventions are nice, but remember that they are only GUIDELINES for national laws regarding copyright.  So even despite the fact that a country may be a signatory, they may not actually have the laws to cover Digital Media specifically etc.  All legal references to any international convention is considered a "lawmaking" issue or an "interpretation" issue of the existing federal law. So you can't just go to any old court and start quoting International Conventions, as the local or district court judge will simply laugh at you and throw your dismiss your case before it has even begun. The Convention must be INTEGRATED into a nation's legal system in order to be active.  Which is why the Digital Millenium Copyright Act in the USA was devised. - Very recently I might add. Many European Countries are still catching up with these amendments.  So do not think you are covered just because of an international Convention.  Just like the UN Human Rights Conventions are abused every day by countries around the world, the Berne Convention is abused as well.  And a whole lot more too.  As the WIPO has fewer members than the UN.

In essense, the $$money$$ is the main difficulty.  And as such unless you are a professional OFP addon maker like the lads at BIS, it will be very difficult to track down and LEGALLY challenge anyone who has made infringements upon your addons nationally and abroad.

The best method is for the OFP community to self regulate.  As copyright does seem like a water tight solution but keep in mind that I lived VERY happily off a Trade Marks Administrations Salary for a number of years.  And top notch attorneys to fight for your infringement cases overseas do certainly come at a price.

Eg.  If any of you have heard of the "Wiggles"  a childrens group.  A grandmother had earlier copyrighted a poem about "Dorothy the Dinosaur" that she wrote for her grandchild.  The Wiggles had a popular character in their group called "Dorothy the Dinosaur".  The grandmother sued for damages and my firm covered the case for the "Wiggles"

The photocopying charge ALONE for this case over a 16 line poem?

$5000+ AU Dollars.

Got Cash?  

[denoir 0]

So, how do you legally differentiate between for instance quoting another persons post in a forum from say copying mp3:s and movies?

As for DMCA and Europe: here's the EU version of it, passed in March.

[Guest]

Eg.  If any of you have heard of the "Wiggles"  a childrens group.  A grandmother had earlier copyrighted a poem about "Dorothy the Dinosaur" that she wrote for her grandchild.  The Wiggles had a popular character in their group called "Dorothy the Dinosaur".  The grandmother sued for damages and my firm covered the case for the "Wiggles"

The photocopying charge ALONE for this case over a 16 line poem?

$5000+ AU Dollars.

Got Cash?  

Who won? Anyway....I bet Jeff woke up when he heard about that!!  

[JGreyNemo 0]

So, how do you legally differentiate between for instance quoting another persons post in a forum from say copying mp3:s and movies?

As for DMCA and Europe: here's the EU version of it, passed in March.

I suppose the fact that this is a stated public internet chat forum negates any copyright on the opinions and statements made by members outside of the BIS forums.

As for the DMCA for the EU, wow that's barely off the press March 2004!!

Which means I don't know that much about the DMCA for EU. Nor do I know about the harsher boundaries - it's supposed to be like the US's DMCA on "steroids" as the article puts it - of IP laws contained within. I don't think any of us do unless you actually subscribe to EU law journals.

Anyone up for some heavy reading?

[JGreyNemo 0]

Eg.  If any of you have heard of the "Wiggles"  a childrens group.  A grandmother had earlier copyrighted a poem about "Dorothy the Dinosaur" that she wrote for her grandchild.  The Wiggles had a popular character in their group called "Dorothy the Dinosaur".  The grandmother sued for damages and my firm covered the case for the "Wiggles"

The photocopying charge ALONE for this case over a 16 line poem?

$5000+ AU Dollars.

Got Cash?  

Who won? Anyway....I bet Jeff woke up when he heard about that!!  

Lol.

It was settled out of court after some mediation. It was a "moderate" sum.

Mind you the Wiggles could barely afford the costs at the time as they were still under contract by ABC National Television and hadn't hit the big time with the national and international celebrity status they have now.

Also it was important that the Wiggles kept Dorothy because she was their only "star character" at the time, no captain feathersword or Ocky the Octopus. Just Dorothy.

Nowadays I think "The Wiggles Touring Pty Ltd" makes enough money to service all their trademarks and most of the toy sales covers any need for any further legal action.

The thing that still gets me is.

What kind of a grandmother writes their grandkids poems and copyrights them?

Smart ones I guess LOL

[Guest]

The thing that still gets me is.

What kind of a grandmother writes their grandkids poems and copyrights them?  

Smart ones I guess   LOL

Ha! Good point!

[One 0]

lost of talk about copywriting and such, and whether or not its valid, but if an addon gets stolen, now that this new tool is out, whether it be from an addon maker or BIS/Codemasters, what the hell is actually going to happen. No one is really talkin about that....

like is the addon polce gonna throw people in jail?

is BIS's lawyers gonna show up at peoples doors?

is addonmaker joe, who does it for the love of the game, gonna waiste $2 Grand to go after some punk that jacked his textures?

[EiZei 0]

lost of talk about copywriting and such, and whether or not its valid, but if an addon gets stolen, now that this new tool is out, whether it be from an addon maker or BIS/Codemasters,  what the hell is actually going to happen. No one is really talkin about that....

like is the addon polce gonna throw people in jail?

is BIS's lawyers gonna show up at peoples doors?

is addonmaker joe, who does it for the love of the game, gonna waiste $2 Grand to go after some punk that jacked his textures?

He/She gets flamed to hell, cant get the addon hosted about anywhere and loses his/hers reputation? Not very motivating since even the ripping itself would involve some degree of work.

[One 0]

hmm, seriously though? I've seen that before, and that seems to be the case, but honestly real world solutions to these problems, or real courses of actions to stop/punish theft in this game, or any game, doesnt seem to be happing.

i'm not saying thats "too bad", or anything, im just sayin

[Bobcatt666 0]

Hihgly doubt nyhting would happen a few folks would not bother downloading the addon lots more wouldn't care you could murder somebody over an addon, most of the comunity wouldn't give a rats behind, as long as they got it. Most could care less about the forum as well. A very small majority even bother reading the forum, even less post. Most cruise the news groups see whats new and downlad it don't even bother checking here, like any other comunity..

Well hopefully the protypes who work on OFP don't ever get shagged by some meatballs mostlikely they will go after the maker of the program for damages. Like they do try going after firearms makers McDonalds, because somebody gets stupid with the product. Yeah there are a number of pros working on mods and addons in ofp and violently will protect their copyrighted stuff. Like in other communites that I deal in, its still art in mostcases that is protected by laws, all it takes is to piss off the wrong person and...........

Know a few guys from Atari, NovaLogic, LucasArts, even Valve, who play OFP as a hobby and tinker with addon making, most of them are smart enough to not openly release things because they don't like sharing or wanna be bothered by folks because people get stupid and asume must play the games they work for only. Some often stalk the community for talent to hire on a good model maker or texture person can be used on any gaming system. And in high demand around in places. Whichis another reason folks kinda get clingy with their addons, most ofitis just the heavy amount of time involved in an addon creation.

[DKM Jaguar 0]

lost of talk about copywriting and such, and whether or not its valid, but if an addon gets stolen, now that this new tool is out, whether it be from an addon maker or BIS/Codemasters,  what the hell is actually going to happen. No one is really talkin about that....

like is the addon polce gonna throw people in jail?

is BIS's lawyers gonna show up at peoples doors?

is addonmaker joe, who does it for the love of the game, gonna waiste $2 Grand to go after some punk that jacked his textures?

He/She gets flamed to hell, cant get the addon hosted about anywhere and loses his/hers reputation? Not very motivating since even the ripping itself would involve some degree of work.

Like when someone....   ... took a leaked M109 alpha and released it. They couldn't get hosting for it, as i remember. Though they're still in the ofp community and no one flamed them.

[EiZei 0]

lost of talk about copywriting and such, and whether or not its valid, but if an addon gets stolen, now that this new tool is out, whether it be from an addon maker or BIS/Codemasters,  what the hell is actually going to happen. No one is really talkin about that....

like is the addon polce gonna throw people in jail?

is BIS's lawyers gonna show up at peoples doors?

is addonmaker joe, who does it for the love of the game, gonna waiste $2 Grand to go after some punk that jacked his textures?

He/She gets flamed to hell, cant get the addon hosted about anywhere and loses his/hers reputation? Not very motivating since even the ripping itself would involve some degree of work.

Like when someone....   ... took a leaked M109 alpha and released it. They couldn't get hosting for it, as i remember. Though they're still in the ofp community and no one flamed them.

Yeah, but the leaker didnt try to claim the work as his own now did he?

[DKM Jaguar 0]

lost of talk about copywriting and such, and whether or not its valid, but if an addon gets stolen, now that this new tool is out, whether it be from an addon maker or BIS/Codemasters,  what the hell is actually going to happen. No one is really talkin about that....

like is the addon polce gonna throw people in jail?

is BIS's lawyers gonna show up at peoples doors?

is addonmaker joe, who does it for the love of the game, gonna waiste $2 Grand to go after some punk that jacked his textures?

He/She gets flamed to hell, cant get the addon hosted about anywhere and loses his/hers reputation? Not very motivating since even the ripping itself would involve some degree of work.

Like when someone....   ... took a leaked M109 alpha and released it. They couldn't get hosting for it, as i remember. Though they're still in the ofp community and no one flamed them.

Yeah, but the leaker didnt try to claim the work as his own now did he?

No, they did credit us in the readme for textures and such.

[Zombie_Mod 0]

What's the BIS position on editing their models?

I would love to retexture the civilians in OFP with "up-to-date" clothing but am not sure whether this would be legal or not. It would certainly be a lot faster for me to produce new models as far as I am concerned.

Currently I use the demo soldier models (basic.p3d) as basis for my civilian addons but of course a lot of work has to be done in order to make them look like civilians, such as remove helmets, pockets at the front, flags etc.

I'd also like to produce a crashed bus, basically by rotating the existing bus model 90 degrees right and adding a few damage textures.

Can you clarify the situation please, Suma? Of course, BIS would be credited with the models and I would not attempt to pass the work off as my own.

[WhoCares 0]

What's the BIS position on editing their models?

...

Can you clarify the situation please, Suma? Of course, BIS would be credited with the models and I would not attempt to pass the work off as my own.

Well, I guess you can find BIS' general position on this with respect to their models in the License Agreement of OFP.

However, BIS would not be BIS, if there was not this.

Quote[/b] ]Bus (BISbus)

Jeep with MG (BISjeepMG)

Bicycle (BISkolo)

Tank (BISM1A1)

APC (BISM2A2)

Man (BISMan)

Helicopter (BISmi24)

Motorcycle (BISmoto)

Boat (BISpbr)

Plan (BISplane)

Sport car (BISrapid)

Figherplan (BISSu25)

Truck (BIStruck5t)

[Zombie_Mod 0]

Fantastic.

I could kiss you! But I won't

Thanks very much.

Scott & Zombie Mod team

[General Barron 0]

Cheesus..... lots of pages here. Can't say I read them all, so I hope I'm not repeating what has already been said, but here goes.

I've always found it strange how different the community seems to view addons as opposed to missions and scripts. For some reason, people seem to care much more about 'newer' and 'cooler' addons being released, rather than actual missions to play with them in. Just take a look at the number of posts in the addons boards compared to the missions or editing boards of these forums, for an example.

The thing that I love most about OFP is how easy it is to create and play new missions, both SP and MP. I don't think that is the case in other FPS games. I don't know about other people, but I would think that what keeps a game new and interesting is playing new levels. Not just looking at new models in the mission editor.

You would think that those who make good missions would get lots of congratulations and pats on the back for their work. Yet, the people who get all the publicity and attention (on the news sites, forums, etc) aren't the mission makers (or the scripters who help out mission makers), but it is the addon makers.

I don't know who decided that the only thing that makes the "news" in OFP would be new addons. Why are there never news posts about a great new MISSION? Or script for that matter. When a new mission comes out, you can put it in OFP and actually have something to play, with a plot, surprises, etc. When you get a new addon, what can you do, if it doesn't come with a good demo mission (like 99% of the non-BAS addons out there)? You put a couple squads down in the mission editor and have a firefight. Whoopie, how fun.

Now that a tool comes out to let you look at/copy other people's addons, and everyone freaks out. Yet since the 'dawn of time', people have been able to look at, copy and edit MISSIONS and SCRIPTS. No one seems to have freaked out about that. But oh yeah, I forgot; no one gives a damn about mission makers or scripters anyway

I appreciate good addons, but truthfully, what determines whether I have a good time playing a mission isn't the addons used. It is the quality of the mission itself; its scripting, its originality, its sounds, etc. And to me, the way I have fun with OFP is to either (a) play MISSIONS, or (b) make missions or scripts.

I'm sure addon makers get their kicks out of making addons, but there seems to be a difference in the 'end result' that an addon maker expects to get as opposed to a mission maker.

Addon expect lots and lots of credit and adoration; news posts on all the OFP sites, thousands of downloads, huge 40+ page threads on the forums, etc. Along comes a tool like this, and now addon makers think someone else might modify their work slightly, and then release it as their own. Thus the glory doesn't go to the orignal creators, but instead the ones who stole it.

Mission makers expect their work to sit around in some OFP sites pending sections (in many cases) for weeks if not months on end, untouched. Then when it is unpended, it will silently be moved to the missions section, where they only hope somebody will stumble upon it, play it, and most importantly, give them feedback and a small gesture of appreciation. There are never any news postings announcing a 'great new mission' (with the exception of OFPEC--sometimes). The only 'discussion' threads for missions are the beta testing thread, which seldom grows to huge proportions. Even though just as much, if not more time and effort may go into a quality mission than an addon, the mission just doesn't get the same amount of respect and acknowledgement as an addon does.

The ability to 'rip off' other people's missions has existed forever, yet it hasn't been much of a problem for mission makers or scripters. Why? Because there isn't the "glory" attatched to mission making like there is to addon making. So what do I say to addon makers when a tool like this comes out? Grow up. Who cares?

[Pathy 0]

Methinks you sounds like you have an inferiority complex

As regard to addon making/mission making, i can do and enjoy both. However, to make the campaigns for my mod, i 1st need complete addons. Thats how it works with us. Thats how it works with many mods. Dont complain that addons are the sole focus, because we NEED the addons to make our brand new campaigns!

And addon makers arent afraid of their "Glory" being stolen. Excuse me, but if youve ever spent weeks on an addon, had a handful of nice comments about it, its not exactly glorious.....what we are afraid of it a flood of duplicate addons that are pretty much useless. After all the work that has been done to standardise things (Jam, CoC UA ect), it would be pointless. We have only just about stopped the flood of M4's

Oh and there ARE other good teams apart from BAS who give demo missions, dont be too narrow-minded..... (we shall call it "BAS are the only addon team that exist" complex)

[General Barron 0]

Quote[/b] ]its not exactly glorious.....

I did put 'glory' in quotes, so I was being a bit fasicious (sp?) :P But yer point is well taken.

[AgentFox2 0]

I don't mess with these "modmaker politics" threads too much, but just wanted to say, great post, General Barron. I agree 100%. Could not have said it better myself.

[Major Fubar 0]

Good post General Barron.

You are right, that in our community missionmakers egt only a small fraction of the attention that addonmakers do. And you are also right that there has always been a means to "rip off" and modify missions and scripts.

And I also know that just as many hours can go into a good mission as go into an addon - and then there's campaigns...so much work.

I love new addons and new mission both, but the community (IMHO) would be in much worse shape without new missions than without new addons.

Now, having said all that, this is propbaly not the place to get bogged down in a discussion about the merits of mission making vs. addon making, or the lack of prestige attached to mission editing...

Take a look here, this may be of interest...Opf user mission creating competition

[AgentFox2 0]

Scripts and missions have always been "open source," and people learn off of each other. I've never heard about a scripter "stealing" parts from another script, because everyone understands that it is open source. It is free for the community to share, learn from, and modify.

The question is, why is it acceptable for modmakers to be so very protective of their work (which is perhaps warranted), while scripters are very open with their work? Has there really been that many confirmed plagarisms?

A lot of what makes addons so great today are the scripts and special features. What would have happened if scripters took a similar position as some modmakers, early on? Would there still be such an awesome array of addons with special features?

Just some food for thought.

[Tactician 0]

There's all kinds of "plagiarism" in scripting. The difference is that no one gives a damn.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]There's all kinds of "plagiarism" in scripting.  The difference is that no one gives a damn.

I'll admit that when I started scripting, I frequently borrowed script segments in order to make my own functioning scripts. It's a very good way to learn scripting techniques, especially stuff like trig usage, the drop command, and dialogs. But I've never publically released something that I didn't create from scratch.

And how do you spot script plagiarism? How do you tell the difference between someone using a similar technique and someone copying & pasting someone's work?

[Tactician 0]

The original author of a script, if he knows his work inside and out, can spot his own "style" in another script. Different people use different syntax, and a copy+paste of a few lines here and there can show it.