Melting trough abrams' armour

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

DER SPIEGEL

The above article is written in german. I will later on try to find an english source.

An Abrams has been hit in August with an unknown type of anumition that went straight through the tank, left armor and right armor. So far only electro-magnetic guns are considered to have such a force but officialy noone was able to develop it yet. Several countries once put effort into creating such a gun in the past, but the one who probably suceeded was definetly not american!  

I post more info when I found it!

[der bastler 0]

Know this page?

(or search these forums...)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

those a Überraschungsei-prototypes    but far from being able to penetrate an Abrams twice!   The official beginning of the research phase was during the cold war I think!

[ozanzac 0]

I beleive the incident involving the Abrams was discussed here a while ago, perhaps during a long stint away from the forums, but I doubt that anyone thought that a rail gun was a feasible explanation.

Someone suggested a rareish RPG with a kind of tiped warhead that expelled plasma could have been the source. But who knows?  

[mr burns 133]

I beleive the incident involving the Abrams was discussed here a while ago..

wasn´t this another incident ? there was no talking about penetration of both- left&right armor iirc. also there were close up photos which showed a blast pattern around the hole which clearly indicated an rpg hit, but the hole was significantly wider in it´s diameter than the tiny 7mm hole that was left when something burned through this tank which al refers to.

-fixed grammar

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

I thought intelligence sources pointed towards a very modern Russian missile, fired from the back of a truck? Other theories claim it may have been a blue-on-blue by a Bradley.

Incidentally, I just read the article, and I think it is either utter rubbish or disinformation.

[sanctuary 19]

I knew that Quake 2 and Quake 3 were the most realistic videogames ever .

[hellfish6 7]

I'm pretty sure that the projectile was determined to be a modern RPG-7 warhead that pretty much got lucky.

[Acecombat 0]

I knew that Quake 2 and Quake 3 were the most realistic videogames ever .

Hell yeah ive been saying it for sometime but no one agrees

Go Nailgun and BFG as well

[ale2999 0]

I knew that Quake 2 and Quake 3 were the most realistic videogames ever .

Hell yeah ive been saying it for sometime but no one agrees  

Go Nailgun and BFG as well  

ROFL! enough ofp. quake 3 here I come. That would be crazy if a rail gun was actually being deployed on war fields

[Balschoiw 0]

I already posted that story in the Iraq thread I guess.

Quote[/b] ]MEMORANDUM FOR RECORD

The following information is provided concerning a Malfunction/Accident/Incident involving TACOM equipment:

a. Location of MAIR: Baghdad, Iraq

b. Date and Time of MAIR: 5:20 AM (before dawn), 28 August 2003.

c. Identification of Unit involved: 2/70 Armor Battalion, 1 AD

d. Injuries/Fatalities: The Tank Commander received minor shrapnel wounds to the legs and arms and the Gunner got some in his arm.

e. Identification of Weapon/Ammunition/Equipment/Vehicle (SN, bumper #, ammo lot #) Involved: M1A1 Tank, serial number L13170, bumper number B 24.

f. Property Damage: The #4 right-hand skirt (TM 9-2350-264- 24P-1 dated March 2003, Figure 274, Item 17, NSN 2510-01-166- 2049, p/n 12323656), the Hull, the NBC hose behind the Gunner’s Seat (TM 9-2350-264-23P-2, dated April 2003, Figure 225, Item 13, NSN 4720-01-320-5774, p/n 12324460-9), the back of the Gunner’s seat (Figure 137, Items 1 & 30, Frame NSN 2540-01-362-5768, p/n 12931155, Cushion NSN 2540-01-144-1458, p/n 12312153), the safety guard that stands upright on the loaders side of the slip ring cover (Figure 132, Item 28, NSN 1015-01-250-5976, p/n 9377649), and the TNB (Figure 139, Item 22, NSN 5975-01-316-9270, p/n 12549752) were all damaged. The skirt and hull can be repaired by the unit, the safety guard is still serviceable, and they can replace the others. The TNB is beyond repair because the housing is damaged.

g. Description of Incident: While on patrol the tank was hit by “somethingâ€. There is a hole in the #4 Right-hand skirt. Because of the classified nature of the insides of the skirt, the hole is covered by paper in this photo. The hole is about the diameter of a pencil. My little finger will not go into it. It is in the skirt proper very near where the bead weld makes a ninety-degree turn to go up for the hinge. On the inside the skin protrudes slightly around the hole. From there the “something†traveled over the track and below the deck entering the hull with the same size hole.

h. Other Pertinent Information: The unit is very anxious to have this “SOMETHING†identified. It seems clear that a penetrator of a yellow molten metal is what caused the damage, but what weapon fires such a round and precisely what sort of round is it? The bad guys are using something unknown and the guys facing it want very much to know what it is and how they can defend themselves against it. Can someone tell us? If not, can we get an expert on foreign munitions over here to exam this vehicle before repairs are begun? Please respond quickly. Also, the TC of the second tank was very frustrated as he attempted to return fire by a lack of a night vision sight for the .50 CAL MG. He said the launch point appeared to be about 100 meters away. The unit went back after daylight to try to find evidence of what was fired but everything, even the .50 CAL brass from the second tank was gone. The only thing they found was the muzzle plug from B24 which popped off when it was hit.

i. Radioactive Devices:

Were any radioactive devices involved? No.

If yes, Name of item:

Was the Source damaged?

If damaged, was a wipe test performed? 2003-09-30 IOP NO. FSO-3

j. Weather Condition/Type of terrain: Approximately 70 degrees and dry/an urban street market

k. Cause of MAIR: Enemy action

l. Authorized Usage: Yes

m. Cargo/How loaded: N/A

n. Fire Suppression System (available/activated - tracked vehicles): The crew expressed their heartfelt thanks to the designers of the Halon fire suppression system.

o. Will TI be performed? Already done.

p. Follow-up Report Required? (If TIed, follow-up is required.) Yes_, (M1 FOV, Fires, only).

q. Source of information for this report: The TC and gunner and the TC of another tank that was nearby at the time of the attack.

r. Date/Time of Report Preparation: 29 September 2003, 1900 hours.

s. POC. Name, telephone number, and email address, of submitting TACOM LAR and Local points, of contact for further information is: Terry Hughes thughes@larnet1.ria.army.mil.

t. Remarks for M1 FOV fires (part number/NSN of parts repaired/replaced): N/A

Weapon used :

with PG-7VR warhead.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Cool, looks like the official damage report.

Where did you find it?

[Balschoiw 0]

My mouth is sealed

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

how is this self-propelled thing supposed to pentrate the "explosive" armor of an Abrams twice? Not that it wouldnt be strong enough but what counts is speed ONLY!

[bucket man 2]

Did this "something" hit right between turret and hull? If so then it is bossible that it indeed was RPG-7 warhead.

I also read that it also could have been somekind of a AT rifle. Not very likely though. Maybe some new chinese missile? Something that hasnt been shown to the bublic yet. Chinese are developing some weird stuff like their lasercountermeasurethingy that is supposed to brake sights and gunner eyes in enemy tanks.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Did this "something" hit right between turret and hull? If so then it is bossible that it indeed was RPG-7 warhead.

I also read that it also could have been somekind of a AT rifle. Not very likely though. Maybe some new chinese missile? Something that hasnt been shown to the bublic yet. Chinese are developing some weird stuff like their lasercountermeasurethingy that is supposed to brake sights and gunner eyes in enemy tanks.  

No, it cant be self propelled, that was my point. Your rifle idea sounds logical to me. I realy do believe that there was some sort of cannon responsible for that.

[jgk6 0]

Velocity has little to do with it. Look up "high explosive anti tank", the Monroe Effect, shaped charges, etc.

If I think about it when I get home, I've got a couple of great books by Ian Hogg with great diagrams that do much better than any explaining I could try. I'll try to scan one and link to it.

What I find weird is that is seems to have not only penetrated the skirt (meant to stop such charges) but penetrated the hull a good half meter away, too.

[miles teg 1]

The M1A1/A2 tank does not use reactive armor if that is what you mean by "explosive" armor.

However it does have mutiple layers of composite/depleted uranium armor.

The RPG-7VR uses a tandem warhead that can both defeat reactive armor as well as many layers of composite/DU armor.

From what I understand the spot where this RPG-7 round hit was one of the weaker points in the M1's side armor and thus kind of a lucky shot. The splash pattern is not evident in the picture on this thread, however in other pictures of this same incident, the splash pattern on the armor typical of a RPG-7 detonation is clearly visible as part of the explosive warhead explodes outward to create a limited anti-personel effect as well (most HEAT warheads do this).

At any rate, I agree that most likely it was a RPG-7VR unless there is some other type of AT rocket or missile that uses a molten metal penetrating slug like the RPG's use.

There are several fairly powerful Russian made ATGM's but they are bulky and difficult to move around. There is also the SPG-9 recoiless rifle, but I don't think any advanced ammunition has been made for it that could penetrate that much armor.

Another possibility is a French made Milan ATGM. Iraq bought quite a few of those before the 1st Gulf War. But again they are bulky, require alot of training, and the range of the engagement may have been under the minimum range of most ATGM's.

So I think that leaves the RPG-7VR as the most likely candidate I think.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[miles teg 1]

Velocity has little to do with it. Look up "high explosive anti tank", the Monroe Effect, shaped charges, etc.

If I think about it when I get home, I've got a couple of great books by Ian Hogg with great diagrams that do much better than any explaining I could try. I'll try to scan one and link to it.

What I find weird is that is seems to have not only penetrated the skirt (meant to stop such charges) but penetrated the hull a good half meter away, too.

This multi-layer penetration is one trademark of a tandem warhead. Although it could have been a VERY powerful conventional HEAT warhead.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Balschoiw 0]

It was the PG-7VR. That has been officially stated. I post some more pics where you can see typical copper remains that come with PG-7VR.

In fact it was a stream of liquid metal that penetrated the armour. Lucky shot, well at least something to worry about for M1 crews.

All the gossip about railguns, AT guns is nonsense.

The warhead introduced in 1988 by "Basalt" was the first to penetrate composite and reactive armour. The PG-7VR is the lates fashion in this and is widely used. It´s only the first incident where a M1 faced a PG-7VR and the hull got penetrated.

On the follwing pics you can see details. And stop that plasma, railgun, magic wonderweapon thing. It has nothing to do with this incident.

Entry hole covered with paper

Entry hole

Torn NBC hose behind the Gunner’s Seat and bent basket shield.

Here you can see the remains of liquid metal and the "splash" effect of the metalstream as it hit the safety side.

Exit side. You can see remains of metalstream. Apparently copper or bronze.

The TNB

The circuit breaker panel.

And into the hull again at the opposite side. The whole is 1,5 - 2 inches deep.

It has been PG-7VR. Nothing mystic about that.

No X-files

I hope you are satisfied now.

[mr burns 133]

No X-files  

I hope you are satisfied now.

nooooooo, i want my railgun

btw: nice WD-40 in the first pic, think i´ll go to obi and by some..

[walker 0]

Hi all

It could have been any of these three

An RPG 7 Launcher with PG-7VR war head already mensioned (most likely candidate)

An RPG-27 which also has a tandem war head

RPG-29 an Light Antitank Rocket Launcher lowest posibility.

But all these weapons are capable of penetrating 750mm of steel armour after also blasting through outer layers of reactive or composite or spaced arnour.

The golden metal is interesting though that sounds like a copper molten penetrator. The US is experimenting with an inteligent shaped charge copper penertator round fired off a light weight version of cruise misile. It is air launched 200miles stand off range.

The inteligent shaped charge converts a flat round copper plate 5mm thick and about 300mm diameter in to either a shrapnel round if over soft targets or a molten copper arrow if over armour.

It takes little imagination to see the possiblity of placing a 5 mm copper sheath or core on an RPG 7 round. It is the kind of experiment you can carry out some where out in the desert or hills somewhere. The use of such a round against the arnoured cars heads of state use should not be discounted.

Kind Regards Walker

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

The hole is 7 mm and crossed the entire tank. How can that be self propelled?

----------------------------------------------------------------

ah, got it! But still sounds a bit strange to me

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]The hole is 7 mm and crossed the entire tank. How can that be self propelled?

I give up...

Pls search google on how a tandem warhead works.

I am just too lazy to explain it all over again.

Liquid metal stream cuts through anything. You have a fast concentrated stream of liqid metal with high velocity. It cuts through metal like butter.

Do you actually have a look at my pics ?

They are self-explaining.

[Balschoiw 0]

Edit: Double post.