Explosion in madrid

[Pipski 0]

Quote[/b] ]I don't want to imagine the panic and chaos that a bomb in the Stockholm subway would cause.

Sure is scary. I had to travel through London yesterday and I found myself looking around the main concourse at Kings Cross, trying to work out if anyone was about to shout `Allahu Akbar' and blow us all to pieces. Whereas on the underground I just have this paranoia about getting pushed in front of a train. Hmmm. Maybe I'm just too paranoid full stop.

[brgnorway 0]

Well, ETA is not an organisaton I sympathize with - but:

Several experts on terrorism suggest this terrible act is not typically an ETA bombing due to the lack of usual warnings ahead of incident. Also, ETA does not usually directly target civilians in this scale due to the possible loss of sympathy from it's supporters.

Secondly, this bombing is has a scale and bears every "hallmark" of an "Al Qaida"-based terrorist cell.

Thirdly, many here draw the conclusion that this has been done to disturb the election. For what purpose?

Fourthly, Spain has positioned itself within the "axis of the willing"  - and spanish police has uncovered al qaida linked cells in spain.

And to Balschiow, spanish police tried to wipe out ETA with some rather disgusting methods during the eighties and early nineties. It caused a national scandal. Spanish police were responsible of undercover killings, torture etc:

Quote[/b] ]"Democracy is defended in the sewers as well as in the salons". This is how Spanish prime minister Felipe González responded to allegations that his government was fighting the Basque separatist group ETA with its own methods: indiscriminate terrorism. Shooting up crowded bars, bombing busy streets, torturing kidnap victims: For three years the GAL ('Anti-terrorist Liberation Groups'), created mayhem in the French Basque Country, where ETA had its 'sanctuary'. In 1986, the French government began to hand over ETA suspects to the Spanish police in large numbers and the GAL campaign stopped. But this 'dirty war' had already created widespread support for ETA in the first generation of Basques to grow up under democracy, and its consequences reverberate to this day. The GAL's links to the Spanish security forces, and finally to González's own cabinet, have been revealed, despite all the resources of 'State secrecy', by controversial magistrates like Baltasar Garzón.

Over the last 15 years, the GAL scandal has fatally undermined González's reputation as a democrat and EU statesman and raised fundamental questions about Spain's much-praised transition to democracy. The GAL investigations have stretched the relationship between government and judiciary to breaking point, and sent ministers and generals to prison. González himself may still face charges.

A book about the scandal and political implications

[bn880 5]

Well they are unsure as to who is responsible yet, perhaps it's the terrorists as Britain is saying, meaning the war on terror failed miserably so far didn't it.

[sanctuary 19]

That is really terrible , horrible

I strongly hope that the people involved and responsible of this horror will be all found and will have the fate they deserve according to such crimes.

But for now, my best thoughts and prayers for the family of those victims.

May the victims rest in peace and the hurted survivors be healed.

[Mora2 0]

hi there,

I´m an Spanish Guy born in Madrid and when i woke up and knew the news i was really shocked.

One thing i would like to ask you for is to sign this petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/ETA/

CNN continues calling ETA a separatist group instead of using the world "terrorist".

this kind of errors affect us all giving no respect to the victims and really creates an aura of desinformation.

It isnt also true that there is a conflict in Spain, the only bastards that use violence and bombing are these sons of a bitch. There is no opression in "Basque countries" and police or army take no military actions.

So if you could sign that petition maybe CNN would change that argument and say the news correctly.

A hug for all.

[Viriato 0]

The Al-Quaeda thing is a desinformation used actively by the political wing of ETA.

Two or tree years ago, ETA steal 6 Tons of a special TNT called Tytadine in southern France, since that steal, they had been using that Tytadine in most of their bombings.

The explosive used for the bombs of this morning (13 bombs!!) is, as you will have guessed, Tytadine.

It´s a matter of hours that the science branch of the police trace this Tytadine to the Tytadine used by ETA lately.

Is true that Spain used some kind of "dirty" war at the 80 against ETA, 4 were killed, but now the responsibles of that are inprisioned, and ETA has killed now more than 1000.

Spain is a democracy, the Basques has all but total independece (their own goverment, police, health system ect...)...

And what has happened this morning in Madrid is utter maddnes.

10 minutes ago, i had seen how a firesmen take from one of the burned and destroyed wagons, the destroyed remains of a Baby chariot.

[bn880 5]

So you are saying it is ETA, but ETA denies it, so what would they achieve if they bomb and blame it on Al Qaeda?

[brgnorway 0]

Even Jürgen Storbeck, head of Europol, doubts ETA's role in this terrible terror attack.

In Norwegian:

Article from Aftenposten

[red oct 2]

i've heard that the French government have stated their railroads are also being threatened by some group. i didn't really hear any details on this, would anybody know more about this and could this maybe have any relation to what happened in spain?

[Gollum1 0]

Terrible, terrible tragedy.

I'm not at all sure this was ETA, but we'll wait and see...

[CosmicCastaway 0]

Listening to the news this afternoon, it seemed like there was mention of a group that had split from the ETA being held responsible. (No link I'm afraid, twas the radio) It also mentioned that it was very different from previous ETA attacks, and no warnings given. (Something they apparantly had done previously) So automatically placing the blame at their door would be perhaps a little premature?

Plus for groups like that it's very important to take the responsibility for your actions, they would gain nothing by executing something like this and then denying it.

[red oct 2]

they just announced the death toll is now around 190

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Terrible tragedy

Death toll has hit 190 now

I believe it was ETA, rather than Al-Q, simply because of the lack of suicide bombers.

[denoir 0]

Well, ETA is not an organisaton I sympathize with - but:

Several experts on terrorism suggest this terrible act is not typically an ETA bombing due to the lack of usual warnings ahead of incident. Also, ETA does not usually directly target civilians in this scale due to the possible loss of sympathy from it's supporters.

Secondly, this bombing is has a scale and bears every "hallmark" of an "Al Qaida"-based terrorist cell.

Thirdly, many here draw the conclusion that this has been done to disturb the election. For what purpose?

Fourthly, Spain has positioned itself within the "axis of the willing"  - and spanish police has uncovered al qaida linked cells in spain.

Those are all good points. ETA usually targets politicians and government organizations. They do indeed usually call ahead and a massacre of civllians is not their standard MO. The proximity to the parliament elections is however difficult to dismiss as a coincidence. And if it was not a coincidence then only ETA or some splinter group of ETA are likely suspects.

Quote[/b] ]And to Balschiow, spanish police tried to wipe out ETA with some rather disgusting methods during the eighties and early nineties. It caused a national scandal. Spanish police were responsible of undercover killings, torture etc:

While the Spanish police have not been very successful in their elimination of ETA, it does not mean that all 'disgusting methods' should be ruled out. We're dealing with terrorists here where just standard law enforcement can't be too effective.

A good example of how a terrorist organization can be put out of play is how the German dealt with the 'Red Brigades' that plagued the country in the 70's. Through extensive police work, they rounded up the leaders. One night in jail, all the prominent figures comitted "suicide". One guy alledgedly killed himself by slamming his head against a radiator in his cell. Another alledgedly smuggled in a gun and shot himself in the rear of his head etc.. Well, you get the picture. After that the red brigades and their various factions completely faded away. Terrorism borders to war and has to be treated as such. While it's not something the military can solve, the police has to use different methods to get them. We're not talking about arresting criminals here. We're talking about wiping out entire organizations where most members probably have not comitted any crimes yet.

It's a difficult issue to know where to draw the line. I think for instance that USA's war on terror crossed the line many times over. Still, terrorist groups go beyond being normal criminals and you can't treat them as such. The difficult issue is of actually knowing where to focus your aggression so that you maximize the damage to the terrorists while at the same time make bloody sure that you don't hurt civillians - especially if they are likely to feel sympathetic to the terrorists.

Bottom line, my opinion is that they should go after the terrorists with anything they have and that they should be granted exceptions from normal police methods. At the same time there must be supervision, so that the 'less nice' methods are focused on the terrorists and that civillians are not hurt.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]I believe it was ETA, rather than Al-Q, simply because of the lack of suicide bombers.

The lack of suicide bomber doesn't nessecarily mean that it isn't an Al Qaida linked terrorist cell. Remember the first bombing of the WTC - no suicide bombers back then!

[Tovarish 0]

I'm leaning towards "not the usual suspects". Remember that the Oklahoma city bomber's were not what anyone was expecting (Everyone suspected Arabs at first). and here we have no warnings as per usual when ETA's behind something, and no apparent "martyrs" as Ex-Ronin pointed out. terrible news.

Funny thing is, I've been just waiting for the same people that accuse the Russian government of orchestrating the Moscow bombings to suggest that the Spanish did the same thing to crack down on Basque Country....no, I guess for Spain that theory sounds a little too crazy

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]While the Spanish police have not been very successful in their elimination of ETA, it does not mean that all 'disgusting methods' should be ruled out. We're dealing with terrorists here where just standard law enforcement can't be too effective.

A good example of how a terrorist organization can be put out of play is how the German dealt with the 'Red Brigades' that plagued the country in the 70's. Through extensive police work, they rounded up the leaders. One night in jail, all the prominent figures comitted "suicide". One guy alledgedly killed himself by slamming his head against a radiator in his cell. Another alledgedly smuggled in a gun and shot himself in the rear of his head etc.. Well, you get the picture. After that the red brigades and their various factions completely faded away. Terrorism borders to war and has to be treated as such. While it's not something the military can solve, the police has to use different methods to get them. We're not talking about arresting criminals here. We're talking about wiping out entire organizations where most members probably have not comitted any crimes yet.

It's a difficult issue to know where to draw the line. I think for instance that USA's war on terror crossed the line many times over. Still, terrorist groups go beyond being normal criminals and you can't treat them as such. The difficult issue is of actually knowing where to focus your aggression so that you maximize the damage to the terrorists while at the same time make bloody sure that you don't hurt civillians - especially if they are likely to feel sympathetic to the terrorists.

Bottom line, my opinion is that they should go after the terrorists with anything they have and that they should be granted exceptions from normal police methods. At the same time there must be supervision, so that the 'less nice' methods are focused on the terrorists and that civillians are not hurt.

I agree one has to change tactics - and historically this has been done in a number of countries. SAS has been used in infiltration and liquidations. You mentioned the germans, and even here in Norway we had an incident at Torp airport (a hostage drama) where they took no chances and killed one with a sniper rifle.

However, what took place in Spain and south of France wasn't just unorthodox police work. It was pure terrorism.

If you reduce yourself to such methods - why then don't you just set up Guantanamo bay somewhere in Spain too?

[llauma 0]

i've heard that the French government have stated their railroads are also being threatened by some group. i didn't really hear any details on this, would anybody know more about this and could this maybe have any relation to what happened in spain?

Yes. It's an unknown group called AZF who says in a letter that they have placed bombs on the rails in France. They have had a big search for bombs and they discovered a bomb a week ago. They have known about this threat since christmas.

I dont know why noone seems to have made this possible connection.

[IceFire 0]

I thought there were 2 Basques. The Spanish Basques, and the French Basques.

[llauma 0]

I thought there were 2 Basques.    The Spanish Basques, and the French Basques.

There's one but it's located in two countries

[shinRaiden 0]

'Official' Basque 'leaders' are scrambling to distance themselves from this hit, as they expect the hammer from Anzar. The only real excuse they've given is that there was no phoned warning. But other than that, the ops does read like them.

Not everybody is Al'Kook'aeda of course. Shoko Asahara, the guy who ordered the gassing of the Tokyo Subway a decade ago was just convicted after an 8 year trial and death threats against the judge etc.

My guess, from looking at pictures of this and other bombings is that the safest looking places seem to be near the doorway between trains. That is very inconvient of course being far away from the doors, but you are away from the center of people, and you have a bit more structual protection. Buses are kinda small to amke that work reliabley though. You just have to scan the passengers and decide if you want to sit next to them, although that does remind one of '50s bus segregation.

[ran 0]

i've heard that the French government have stated their railroads are also being threatened by some group. i didn't really hear any details on this, would anybody know more about this and could this maybe have any relation to what happened in spain?

Yes. It's an unknown group called AZF who says in a letter that they have placed bombs on the rails in France. They have had a big search for bombs and they discovered a bomb a week ago. They have known about this threat since christmas.

I dont know why noone seems to have made this possible connection.

Their is a difference between an isolated numbnut knowing the interior ministery's address and how to set up a rudimentary charge after getting his hands on stolen mining material and an organised terrorist organisation planting 13 (if not more) bombs in overcrowded trains in three different stations in an European capital.

Even if the charges seemed rudimentary enough for the TEDAX to remove them quite "easily" along with booby-traps aimed at them, the overall operation denotes some really, it's sad to say, but some really good organisation.

All this could have been even worst that what it has been, believe me.

The AZF case is being investigated here, and not only by police forces.

[denoir 0]

BBC:

Quote[/b] ]

LATEST: Madrid bombings claimed in name of al-Qaeda, Arabic paper says. More soon.

Spain says Arabic tapes, detonators found in stolen van after bombings.

The current number is 190 dead and 1,200 wounded, making it the worst ever terrorist attack in Europe. (The Lockerby bombing claimed more lives, but fewer were seriously wounded)

[ran 0]

Well .... I wouldn't like to be of Moroccan or any other Northern African origin in spain right now ....

[edc 0]

This is a very sad incident, probably one of the worst terror attacks. My condolences to the victims and their families. Hopefully those responsible whether the Basque seperatists/terrorists, Al Quaeda, or a combination of both, will be quickly found and punished for their cowardly acts.