Hkm4

[GoOB 0]

If you wanna go play with guns move to the Congo.

The French ruined that for us

Personally I don't think that civilians need guns for anything other than hunting. Even that is a questionable "need" The only country in the world wich I am aware of that allows automatic rifles to be sold to civilians is the United states of America. And they justify it (like almost everything else they justify) with their constitution. The Americans apparently need their guns to be able to stand up against tyranny, I mean what the heck? Would a couple of hill-billies with M4's be able to defeat the American military? And would it even come to that? The country is a democracy for christs sake!

I belive strongly in every man/womans right to choose what to do with their life and how to view matters. But does owning a automatic rifle make you more free? I like Swedens gun laws even without knowing too much about them. But I do belive that buying handguns and hunting rifles (legally) takes an awful lot of red-tape.

[red oct 2]

If you wanna go play with guns move to the Congo.

The French ruined that for us

Personally I don't think that civilians need guns for anything other than hunting. Even that is a questionable "need" The only country in the world wich I am aware of that allows automatic rifles to be sold to civilians is the United states of America. And they justify it (like almost everything else they justify) with their constitution. The Americans apparently need their guns to be able to stand up against tyranny, I mean what the heck? Would a couple of hill-billies with M4's be able to defeat the American military? And would it even come to that? The country is a democracy for christs sake!

I belive strongly in every man/womans right to choose what to do with their life and how to view matters. But does owning a automatic rifle make you more free? I like Swedens gun laws even without knowing too much about them. But I do belive that buying handguns and hunting rifles (legally) takes an awful lot of red-tape.

do a little research before you generalize us as the typical "stupid, mindless, hillbillies" i really find such comments comming from you people very offensive and i am getting a tad bit tired of hearing it

94% of americans want federal safty regulations enacted on the manufacture and use of all handguns, and 86% want weapons even more expensive. 59% want a entire ban on handguns.

64% t of NRA members favor mandatory reporting of private handgun sales

59%  of NRA members favor regulations requirng that guns be stored and unloaded

68%  of NRA members support creating uniform safety standards for domestic and imported guns

56% supported a law requiring a five-day waiting period before purchasing a gun

55% percent were in favor of banning high-capacity magazines that hold ammo

and only 25% of all americans own a firearm.

source:

http://www.mppgv.org/public%20opinion.htm

[John_Q 0]

Quote[/b] ]I mean, who needs a submachinegun capable of emptying a full magazine in under 5 seconds to hunt dear?

Even if they were legal, full-auto SMGs would be worthless for hunting deer (Or pretty much anything else). For one thing, their range is inadequate for hunting purposes. Also, a deer hit with a 9mm is probably going to be able to get away before it dies. Even if full-auto was 100% legal, hunters would still use high-powered bolt-action rifles for most hunting.

Quote[/b] ]Personally I don't think that civilians need guns for anything other than hunting. Even that is a questionable "need" The only country in the world wich I am aware of that allows automatic rifles to be sold to civilians is the United states of America.

You've done a very poor job at research, full-auto is basically banned almost everywhere in the US. Also, I firmly disagree with the idea that guns are unnecessary. When it comes to self defense, guns are powerful equalizers, allowing small people to defend themselves against large assailants. And don't try to say that martial arts can be complete substitutes for guns. If your first hit on your attacker doesn't drop him, then you're dead meat.

Quote[/b] ]And they justify it (like almost everything else they justify) with their constitution.?

It's not some vague thing that we poorly justify. It says right in our constitution that civilians can own firearms.

Edit - Could we just discuss this new M4? I'm sure this forum has already seen many debates about gun laws.

[GoOB 0]

If you wanna go play with guns move to the Congo.

The French ruined that for us

Personally I don't think that civilians need guns for anything other than hunting. Even that is a questionable "need" The only country in the world wich I am aware of that allows automatic rifles to be sold to civilians is the United states of America. And they justify it (like almost everything else they justify) with their constitution. The Americans apparently need their guns to be able to stand up against tyranny, I mean what the heck? Would a couple of hill-billies with M4's be able to defeat the American military? And would it even come to that? The country is a democracy for christs sake!

I belive strongly in every man/womans right to choose what to do with their life and how to view matters. But does owning a automatic rifle make you more free? I like Swedens gun laws even without knowing too much about them. But I do belive that buying handguns and hunting rifles (legally) takes an awful lot of red-tape.

do a little research before you generalize us as the typical "stupid, mindless, hillbillies" i really find such comments comming from you people very offensive and i am getting a tad bit tired of hearing it

94% of americans want federal safty regulations enacted on the manufacture and use of all handguns, and 86% want weapons even more expensive. 59% want a entire ban on handguns.

64% t of NRA members favor mandatory reporting of private handgun sales

59%  of NRA members favor regulations requirng that guns be stored and unloaded

68%  of NRA members support creating uniform safety standards for domestic and imported guns

56% supported a law requiring a five-day waiting period before purchasing a gun

55% percent were in favor of banning high-capacity magazines that hold ammo

and only 25% of all americans own a firearm.

source:

http://www.mppgv.org/public%20opinion.htm

Where was the word stupid in my post? Where did I say that Americans are mindless?

And I was posting my point of view on this matter. Not dragging up statstics and information about American gunlaws/the NRA members views on gunlaws in America. It did indeed come out less tactfull than I had intended, maybe I should do my English homework?

Quote[/b] ]You've done a very poor job at research, full-auto is basically banned almost everywhere in the US.

Almost being the key word.

Quote[/b] ]It's not some vague thing that we poorly justify. It says right in our constitution that civilians can own firearms.

Did I write vauge? You do justify it in you constitution, wich is what I am reacting to.

Quote[/b] ]When it comes to self defense, guns are powerful equalizers, allowing small people to defend themselves against large assailants. And don't try to say that martial arts can be complete substitutes for guns. If your first hit on your attacker doesn't drop him, then you're dead meat.

Again, you shouldn't need guns in a well functioning scociety/country. Wich the US is not judging from your statement, the governments job is to make sure the people are happy and safe, carrying guns don't make it safer for you. Rather the opposite. Locking yourself up being scared of "them" or "it" isn't the right way to go about things.

And if 25% of Americas population owns a gun, it's still a whole lot of people!

[John_Q 0]

Quote[/b] ]Again, you shouldn't need guns in a well functioning scociety/country. Wich the US is not judging from your statement, the governments job is to make sure the people are happy and safe, carrying guns don't make it safer for you.

Do you actually think it's possible to achieve this kind of nirvana? That we can have a world where people will never have any need to defend themselves? Unless we have enough police officers to watch every home, every street, every hidden nook and cranny, people should be able to defend themselves.

<span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'>Back On Topic</span>

So basically this is just another version of the M4, just more reliable?

[OmniMax 0]

I find it scary that H+K has a forum.. makes the idea of buying weapons which only purpose is to kill something seem more...trivial than it really is. I mean, who needs a submachinegun capable of emptying a full magazine in under 5 seconds to hunt dear?

But the M4 being made by H+K is a waste. It's not a particuarly great weapon anyway..

I find it scary that people make games.. where you simulate killing people.

Nobody should harm anybody. Everybody should hold hands, sing songs, and go to church, right? This sounds like something similar I've heard and was said during the 1930s...

Anybody who even thinks about harming somebody else should be locked away!

Yes. The M4\M16 series of weapon isn't that great. I mean it's only the longest US service rifle, and canadian company Diamaco is now making it under licence... I mean hey, why didn't we just make AK-47 copies in .223, right? Poor Candians wasting their money...

I mean after playing Counterstrike, we sort of deduce the Desert Eagle chambered in .50 AE is the best gun! Ever! It can beat the M16 in all areas! Accuracy, range, Rate of fire, reliability! And didn't some marine guys take out some armored car in the Persian Gulf with some sort of .50 round?

Desert Eagles, please.

Plated gold to go with our soldier's blingification.

...

Anyway, I expect the quality of HK to really shine in this product and they'll sell to the civvie market and export to the US.

[ralphwiggum 6]

let's not get into politics here. stay ontopic, and it's about HK coming out with a M4 upper.

[Gollum1 0]

The XM-8 series or HKM4 must be a dream for U.S combat divers, they can be fired without draining them of water, even with a silencer attached. Trying the same with an M4 or M16 would seriously damage it.

[GoOB 0]

Quote[/b] ]Again, you shouldn't need guns in a well functioning scociety/country. Wich the US is not judging from your statement, the governments job is to make sure the people are happy and safe, carrying guns don't make it safer for you.

Do you actually think it's possible to achieve this kind of nirvana? That we can have a world where people will never have any need to defend themselves? Unless we have enough police officers to watch every home, every street, every hidden nook and cranny, people should be able to defend themselves.

Off-topic:

No, but carrying a gun doesn't make you safe, being smart and not losing your head in situations were your life is in danger does. (I have been robbed once under the threat of a knife, pulling a gun or any other weapon would probably had gotten me killed)

On_topic:

I am no expert on guns and or the useage of guns, but it does indeed seem to be extremly tough! Could prove very useful for recce units and aquatic units.

But who will buy this new gun? The US is focusing on the XM8 design and probably won't buy any of these rifles. I could see Diemaco buying a licence to produce this one, or HK selling it to Saudi-Arabia or some othe country (S-A seems to be refurbishing their armed forces)

[DKM Jaguar 0]

I find it scary that H+K has a forum.. makes the idea of buying weapons which only purpose is to kill something seem more...trivial than it really is. I mean, who needs a submachinegun capable of emptying a full magazine in under 5 seconds to hunt dear?

But the M4 being made by H+K is a waste. It's not a particuarly great weapon anyway..

I find it scary that people make games.. where you simulate killing people.

Nobody should harm anybody. Everybody should hold hands, sing songs, and go to church, right? This sounds like something similar I've heard and was said during the 1930s...

Anybody who even thinks about harming somebody else should be locked away!

Yes. The M4\M16 series of weapon isn't that great. I mean it's only the longest US service rifle, and canadian company Diamaco is now making it under licence... I mean hey, why didn't we just make AK-47 copies in .223, right? Poor Candians wasting their money...  

I mean after playing Counterstrike, we sort of deduce the Desert Eagle chambered in .50 AE is the best gun! Ever! It can beat the M16 in all areas! Accuracy, range, Rate of fire, reliability! And didn't some marine guys take out some armored car in the Persian Gulf with some sort of .50 round?

Desert Eagles, please.

Plated gold to go with our soldier's blingification.

...

Anyway, I expect the quality of HK to really shine in this product and they'll sell to the civvie market and export to the US.

This starts offtopic, but you'll see my point as you read through.

Not everyone who is against private ownership of anything with a higher rate of fire than a shotgun is a tree hugging hippy. It's becuase people can't be trusted to own something. And playing a game never killed anyone, owning a submachinegun capable of delivering 5.56mm rounds up to 500m at the rate of 600 rounds a minute accuratly did. And no, you don't need a fast car, but I think you'll find that there are a lot more cases of deliberate killings with guns such as these than with any car.

Oh and Omnimax, you don't seem to be able to hold a mature conversation without trying to form basic, childish insults. Where did I mention the desert eagle, or CounterStrike for that matter? Weapons like the G3, G36, Steyr, L85A2, anything by Sig Sauer all are as good as the M4/M16A2 in some way or another, be it rate of fire, accuracy, reliablility...

and a lot of these weapons are being made by H+K now.

Quote[/b] ]Nobody should harm anybody. This sounds like something similar I've heard and was said during the 1930s...

So becuase people thought that we should not harm each other in the 1930's, it's now RIGHT to hurt everyone becuase those views are old? Here's a tip for forums: think before you type. It may acctually help you type something logical.  

Quote[/b] ]And even implying a questionable morale of people who like to talk about their guns, on a military sim forum... I don't know, a bit hypocritical to me.

It's not talking about guns, it's trying to buy them when the only thing they are designed for is combat. They are useless for anything BUT combat. And you'll notice that the countires where you can buy these weapons have the highest gun-related crime rates of anywhere. Coincidence? Yeah, probably. [/sarcasm]

[stevevcb 3]

If you want to get rid of gun crime, you don't ban guns. You just make ammunition impossible to get hold of  

And the self-defence argument... saying that it's okay to use a gun on someone who is attacking you just because they're bigger than you is like saying that it's perfectly alright to carry a knife in case someone harder than you starts beating you up.

Anyway. I never liked the M4, it seems overhyped to me, but I suppose a H&K version would rock, if only because H&K are brilliant at what they do.

[Supah 0]

Wasnt HK redoing britains new assault rifle too? and wasnt HK making the next us assault rifle too? THe one that looked like a fish? The germans are taking over

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Let's face it- HK has pretty much pushed the current gas-operated assault weapon concept to its limit. Now they're just bored and to fill in the time they're telling everyone else how to do their jobs.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Let's face it- HK has pretty much pushed the current gas-operated assault weapon concept to its limit

HK made some really great improvemets in gun technique. Of course they are trying to sell them and indeed they are in my eyes THE gun developing company right now. Whenever you search for up-to-date guns with high reliability and on-purpose design without much maintanance time HK is a must. There´s just no way around them. The G3 series has been great, the SMG and MG types they´ve done are a must and G36 is a real great gun. No jams for over 5 years including testing phase.

It´s of course great that it´s a german company again, but if they would be Brits or whatever I wouldn´t mind also as the quality of their products is awesome.

I tried a lot of different weapons, the M16 series, the AK series, some belgian and french ones, but the G36 tops them in my eyes. Although I would like to see it handle 7.62.

[ralphwiggum 6]

I think we can trust HK to do something innovative.

[madmedic 0]

Not everyone who is against private ownership of anything with a higher rate of fire than a shotgun is a tree hugging hippy. It's becuase people can't be trusted to own something. And playing a game never killed anyone, owning a submachinegun capable of delivering 5.56mm rounds up to 500m at the rate of 600 rounds a minute accuratly did. And no, you don't need a fast car, but I think you'll find that there are a lot more cases of deliberate killings with guns such as these than with any car.

a) If it is chambered in 5.56, it is not a submachinegun...submachineguns are chambered in pistol calibre.

b) This rifle will not be sold to the general public (if at all) in its full-auto version, the law has prohibited building new machineguns for civillian ownership since 1986.

c) less than 1% of gun related crime in the U.S. is  performed with a rifle of ANY kind, let alone a so-called "assault weapon".

d) In the last 60 years, there have been a total of TWO murders with legally owned machineguns...both were committed by police officers.

And I do not recall hearing of any legally owned machinegun ever being involved/used in a robbery or other crime

Quote[/b] ]And you'll notice that the countires where you can buy these weapons have the highest gun-related crime rates of anywhere. Coincidence? Yeah, probably.

And you'll notice that U.S. cities/states with the strictest gun laws, on average, have the highest crime rates.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]And you'll notice that U.S. cities/states with the strictest gun laws, on average, have the highest crime rates.

.......sounds weird though. What came first? The high crime rate or the strict gun laws? I bet the laws came as a result of high crime rates

[madmedic 0]

Quote[/b] ]And you'll notice that U.S. cities/states with the strictest gun laws, on average, have the highest crime rates.

.......sounds weird though. What came first? The high crime rate or the strict gun laws? I bet the laws came as a result of high crime rates  

Yes, many gun laws in the U.S. came in reaction to crime rates (usually knee-jerk reactions)

However...The majority of gun laws have been in force literally for multiple decades, (plenty of time for them to have some impact on crime rates, huh?)

Well, in most cases...crime has actually made a steady INCREASE in traditionally "gun-unfriendly" cities like D.C., NYC, ect. ect.

Most of the shooting incidents I have responded to while on the job were the result of a suicide...NONE of the calls I have been on involved an "assault rifle".

Only twice have I responded to a person shot with a rifle (one was a .22, and the other was a bolt action 30-06...BOTH were suicide)

All of the GUN RELATED murders I have responded to happened on the same night, during a series of six shootings and retaliation shootings between two gangs in the local ghetto.

The largest firearm they used was a 380 Lorcin (cheap piece of crap) also used were a beat up old .22 revolver, and a couple of rusty old 25 ACP autos.

That was five years ago, I have not been dispatched to any GUN RELATED murders, or assaults since that shift.

I have, however been to exactly four murders that were committed with blunt objects (baseball bats, axe handles, ext), two scenes where someone was beaten to death in a fist fight, and SO MANY STABBINGS that I can not venture to guess a number.

Also, countless incidents involving ASSAULTS with the above weapons, where the victim did not die.

Oh yeah...And I have been to three different calls where an armed attacker was shot in SELF DEFENSE...Once by an old lady, once by a man in his 40s, and once by a woman in her late 30s.

Pronounced one bad guy dead on scene, and transported the other two to the hospital with gunshot wounds.

edited to add: Sorry this topic went "off topic"...we are supposed to be discussing the H&K M4

I will stop now.

[Unhappy customer 0]

Hey guys the whole point of the HK upper is to get rid of the M-4/M-16 reliability/jamming problems. You say why would HK waste their time on the M-4/M-16? The whole point is to make the M-4/M-16 a better gun. Basically it's like putting the G-36 inards in an M-4. The best part is that if you already have an M-4 you can upgrade to the HK upper for a lot cheaper than buying the whole G-36 rifle (I'm assuming...). Also I hope that they make a kit to convert the new Barrett M-468 M-4 derivative that is chambered in the new powerfull 6.8mm SPC (Special Purpose Cartridge). This would create the ideal special forces carbine. Also I hear that a version of the M-96 Recon rifle will be made in 6.8mm, although I personally don't know much about this rifle.... I think it has a piston operated system similar to the G-36...

Also I'm not sure about all these new M-4 carbines that are chambered for .50 cal pistol cartridges....(NOT full size .50 cal rifle) 10 round magazine capacity just isn't enough for anything other than police and civilian apps. I still think it would be cool to have one chambered in .44 Magnum though....

And to those of you who say why on earth would someone create such an evil tool of death? I say welcome to reality buddy. There are bad people in this world and throwing flowers at them isn't going to solve anything. So what do you do with religious crazys (Muslim, Christian, Satanists I really don't care what their faith is...) who are so insane that they actually want to die in battle with you so that they can go to heaven? You send them on their way of course.... we have all the necessary tools and plenty of ammunition to facilitate their needs... So who are we to deny them of acheiving their goals? If you think about it, we're actually doing them a service....

[stgn 39]

Well I see this as a great thing cause since the M4 is indede smaler than the xm8 bothe in lenth, whith and whight(altho no lasers). And whit a new more reliavle weapon Maby special forces will be even more likely to use the M4 and its versability.

STGN

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I find it scary that H+K has a forum.. makes the idea of buying weapons which only purpose is to kill something seem more...trivial than it really is. I mean, who needs a submachinegun capable of emptying a full magazine in under 5 seconds to hunt dear?

But the M4 being made by H+K is a waste. It's not a particuarly great weapon anyway..

Well said, scary indeed. Some of these guys might realy enjoy a shooting sport but .... well to a certain extent it is scary.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Wasnt HK redoing britains new assault rifle too? and wasnt HK making the next us assault rifle too? THe one that looked like a fish? The germans are taking over

The SA80 was originally designed and manufactured by HK's british division.

The A2 is more reliable. Apparently more than the m16. But. It is still not a very good rifle. It's extremely heavy (heaviest issued assault rifle in the world ATM), unergonomic, difficult and time consuming to clean.

But it is accurate.

*edit*

And shooting is a sport. Archery is a sport. Civilians don't need automatic weapons - but they don't need fancy cars and other consumer goods.

Legal weapons aren't the cause of crime, as madmedic said.

[4 IN 1 0]

Wasnt HK redoing britains new assault rifle too? and wasnt HK making the next us assault rifle too? THe one that looked like a fish? The germans are taking over

The SA80 was originally designed and manufactured by HK's british division.

The A2 is more reliable.  Apparently more than the m16.  But.  It is still not a very good rifle.  It's extremely heavy (heaviest issued assault rifle in the world ATM), unergonomic, difficult and time consuming to clean.

But it is accurate.

*edit*

And shooting is a sport.  Archery is a sport.  Civilians don't need automatic weapons - but they don't need fancy cars and other consumer goods.  

Legal weapons aren't the cause of crime, as madmedic said.

SA80 is originally designed by Royal firearm, H&K(by that time it still under capital of UK) are just tweaking and making it, anyways, most SA80 are really a rusty piece of shit(even more worse then M16s)

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps....germany

Quote[/b] ]Colt Sues Heckler & Koch, Bushmaster Over Copies of M4 Rifle

April 21 (Bloomberg) -- Colt Defense LLC, the exclusive supplier of the M4 rifle to the U.S. military, claimed in a lawsuit that Heckler & Koch Inc. and Bushmaster Firearms Inc. are selling ``copycat'' versions of the weapon.

Closely held Colt seeks a court order to block Bushmaster and Heckler & Koch from using the M4 name or design in any of their products. Colt claims Bushmaster's XM-15 E2S ``M4 Type'' and Heckler & Koch's planned ``HKM4'' are ``identical'' to Colt's, according to the suit filed in U.S. District Court in Norfolk, Virginia.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Colt claims Bushmaster's XM-15 E2S ``M4 Type'' and Heckler & Koch's planned ``HKM4'' are ``identical'' to Colt's, according to the suit filed in U.S. District Court in Norfolk, Virginia.

Perhaps they should check out the areas where HK made improvements before they start complaining .

Quote[/b] ]Well said, scary indeed. Some of these guys might realy enjoy a shooting sport but .... well to a certain extent it is scary.

If you have a problem with shooting as a sport, then do you also have a problem with the shotput, archery, and javelin throwing? All of those are weapons. In fact, I'd rather die quickly from being shot multiple times with a rifle than die slowly of internal bleeds caused by being hit with a heavy, rapidly moving object.