Bush vietnam service record released

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ Feb. 11 2004,09:57)]Another one from the files of incriminating photos...

http://www.hownottofly.com/images/rumsfeld_saddam.jpg

Wow! Kerry with a mustache, shaking Rummy's hand!

And he calls himself a Democrat!

LOL

Quote[/b] ]Oh what a boring pic I posted.

I thought the pic was referring to the fuzzy wuzzy guy behind Fonda.

I thought I'd spice it up a bit. I thought it was the fuzzy guy too originally, but I've seen other pictures of Kerry from that era, and he basically had the same hair he has now, except about 4 inches longer with some very unfortunate sideburns.

[Schoeler 0]

@ Feb. 10 2004,23:52)]Pinko babes are kind of a turn-on for me. Is that wrong?

LMAO!! It is a bit sexy isn't it?

[theavonlady 2]

@ Feb. 10 2004,23:52)]Pinko babes are kind of a turn-on for me. Is that wrong?

LMAO!!  It is a bit sexy isn't it?

/avon considers plastic surgery and purchasing aerobics video

[Acecombat 0]

[ralphwiggum 6]

@ Feb. 11 2004,09:05)]but I've seen other pictures of Kerry from that era, and he basically had the same hair he has now, except about 4 inches longer with some very unfortunate sideburns.

welcome to 70s. you should be glad that 80s left no impression on you.

Quote[/b] ]Pinko babes are kind of a turn-on for me. Is that wrong?

given her hairstyle. i say you need to come to LA to see beautiful babes(with and without surgery)

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]Pinko babes are kind of a turn-on for me. Is that wrong?

given her hairstyle. i say you need to come to LA to see beautiful babes(with and without surgery)

Ahh c'mon, you gotta admit that she was a good looking woman.

[ralphwiggum 6]

/avon considers plastic surgery and purchasing aerobics video

don't say i did not warn you

http://www.angelfire.com/celeb/splits/Photos/JaneFondaSS.jpg

Quote[/b] ]Ahh c'mon, you gotta admit that she was a good looking woman.

key word: WAS

http://www.1stcavmedic.com/Jane_Fonda/JaneFonda-MugShot.jpg

[Longinius 1]

While I dont think you have to be a veteran to be a president, I dislike anyone who basically says "do as I say - not as I do".

Bush doged the war, but he has no doubts about sending others to do the job. He then has the guts to say that he actually put his time in, after nine days of service.

That makes me a bloody veteran by those standards, with my four odd years in the Swedish Homeguard. I'd rather see a president that hadnt served and admitted to it, than one that dodged and claims he did his part.

[madmedic 0]

I think it comes down to the simple choice: Vietnam War Dodger versus Vietnam War Hero.

Be carefull with your wording...with that, you are branding anyone who served in the Guard or reserves, and did not deploy to Viet Nam...as a draft doger.

Hi madmedic

George Bush Jnr was a Vietnam War Dodger.

And I can prove it if he wants to sue he can. Don't try to pull others into it. I made a singular statement. Nothing about national guards or any other group of soldiers.

I repeat George Bush Jnr was a Vietnam War Dodger.

Kind Regards Walker

Thats not my point,

Your statement sounded (to me) like you are saying he is a draft dodger because he was in the guard.

If I have mis-read...sorry.

[theavonlady 2]

/avon considers plastic surgery and purchasing aerobics video

don't say i did not warn you

http://www.angelfire.com/celeb/splits/Photos/JaneFondaSS.jpg

I said plastic surgery - not hip replacement surgery.

[Schoeler 0]

No,...he admitted that he threw FAKE medals over the White House fence.

His are hanging in his office, he is proud of them now that they might buy him votes.

If they weren't made by hasbro, then they must have been real medals.  He earned those medals.  They were his.  Thus they were his to do whatever he wanted with them.  If they were someone else's medals, he obviously threw them at that person's request, so who gives a damn?  From what I heard, he threw his ribbons away, and not his medals anyway.  So that may explain the sinister inconsistency the Bush administration wants its lackeys to notice without thinking too deeply into the matter afterward.

Quote[/b] ]As a senator he voted AGAINST: the F-15, F-16, B-1, B-2, MX missle, Pershing-2 Missle, Tomahawk Missle, M-1 Abrams Tank, M-2 Bradley Fighting Vehicle, and many other weapon systems that we depend on today. If it were up to John Kerry, all the cutting edge equipment our military has today would have never been fielded. No cruise missles, we would still be using the M-60 tank, there would be only F-4's, no or fewer F-15's or F16's, The B-2 stealth would have never happened. The B1B Lancer that was killed under Carter would have never been resurected under Reagan.

I suppose we would have still been flying hellcats and shooting M1s then?  The truth is, there needs to be a voice of moderation or even opposition in the Senate when it comes to military budgets.  Kerry filled that role.  Questioning government spending programs and even opposing them is not un-American, it is a duty for those who represent us.  It is also quite wise.  I was around when all these programs were proposed by the Reagan administration.  If they weren't opposed, Reagan would have had us shooting MX  missiles from the dark side of the moon at the "evil empire".

Quote[/b] ]- As Senator, Kerry Proposed Massive Defense Cuts Of Billions Of Dollars And Numerous Key Programs.

America spends something like 25 times more than the next largest military power.  Yet, we are among the least in spending with respect to foreign aid and providing our own citizens with adequate healthcare and an equal education.  You think maybe we could have spent some of that money in other places?

Quote[/b] ]- Kerry Voted Against At Least Eleven Military Pay Increases.

On bills with all kinds of wonderful riders attached I'm sure.

Quote[/b] ]- As Senator, Kerry Also Pushed To Cut Intelligence Funding By More Than $2.58 Billion.

Well, its a good thing those bills didn't pass, else the CIA wouldn't have been able to do the bang up job it did with respect to providing the President with pre-war intelligence.  Intelligence funding for what?  More spy satellites which, in case you haven't noticed, aren't very adequate at forecasting things like 9-11 and aren't even all that good at delineating a milk factory from a chemical weapons plant.  Humint is where the funding was needed, but those sorts of programs weren't being proposed before Osama woke our asses up in a hurry.  Humint by the way is relatively cheap and a hell of alot more effective against our current enemy than a new KH-11 would be.

Quote[/b] ]Retired Gen. George S. Patton III charged that Mr. Kerry's actions as an antiwar activist had "given aid and comfort to the enemy," as had the actions of

Ramsey Clark and Jane Fonda.

I'd bet they gave aid and comfort to draft age kids and their families round about 1972 also.  It was high time the dying ended anyway.

Quote[/b] ]Long after he changed sides in congressional hearings, Mr. Kerry lobbied for renewed trade relations with Hanoi. At the same time, his cousin C. Stewart Forbes, chief executive for Colliers International, assisted in brokering a $905 million deal to develop a deep-sea port at Vung Tau, Vietnam - an odd coincidence.

Half of Congress is currently pushing for renewed normal trade relations with Hanoi.  Check the news recently.

Quote[/b] ]As noted in the Inside Politics column of Nov. 14 (Nation), historian Douglas Brinkley is writing Mr. Kerry's biography. Hopefully, he'll include the senator's latest ignominious feat: preventing the Vietnam Human Rights Act (HR2833) from coming to a vote in the Senate, claiming human rights would deteriorate as a result. His actions sent a clear signal to Hanoi that Congress cares little about the human rights for which so many Americans fought and died.

Sounds bad doesn't it?  But what is really in this act?  Maybe a stronger, better act could be passed whose passage would be prevented if this act were allowed to be pushed through.  Any riders attached?

Also, we fought in Vietnam, not for human rights but to stem the tide of communism which we assumed would spread across the world under the "domino theory".  Any assertion that we fought for rights is ridiculous and a red herring argument.  For Christ's sake, we used napalm, cs, psyops, torture, assasination, carpet bombing and other obscene tactics in Vietnam, and we did it to support the corrupt South Vietnamese government.

Quote[/b] ]As Mr. Kerry contemplates a run for the presidency, people must remember that he has fought harder for Hanoi as an antiwar activist and a senator than he did against the Vietnamese communists while serving in the Navy in Vietnam.

Well, I recently attended a Kerry rally to see what the fuss was all about and I can tell you this:  There were a hell of a lot of veterans from all wars there, but particularly from Vietnam (my Dad among them) who would disagree with the arguments you posted.  In fact, some of them were wearing the medal of honor.  The dominant party supporting him there were veterans.  Veterans are still his biggest base of support, along with firefighters and cops.  Color me crazy, but I believe that says something.

[walker 0]

Hi all

A thought occurs:

If George Bush Jnr was payed for time he spent in Alabama which the pay records prove.

And Military records at the time prove he was not there to be assesed.

Is that not a case for a fraud investigation?

Is it time to bring in a special prosecutor?

Shocked Walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

Quote[/b] ]Vietnam revealed a negative aspect of relying on reservists. For largely domestic political reasons, President Johnson chose not to mobilize most of the nation's reserve forces. The 1968 callups were only token affairs. Johnson's decision to avoid a major reserve mobilization was opposed by the senior leadership of both the active duty military establishment and the reserve forces, but to no avail. The Reserves and the Guard acquired reputations as draft havens for relatively affluent young white men. Military leaders questioned the wisdom of depending on reserve forces that might not be available except in dire emergencies

From their own website

http://www.ang.af.mil/history/Forging.asp

Says it all I think. Even the National Guard thinks certain elements of their force were being missused by goldbrickers.

As I said the release of the records of George Bush Jnr's. pay for his 9 days bring up far more questions than it answeres.

[Edit]My use of bold in the sentence not the Air National Guard site's. [/Edit]

Kind Regards Walker

[theavonlady 2]

As I said the release of the records of George Bush Jnr's. pay for his 9 days bring up far more questions than it answeres.

Like was there any free lunch?

[walker 0]

As I said the release of the records of George Bush Jnr's. pay for his 9 days bring up far more questions than it answeres.

Like was there any free lunch?

Hi avon

Well he was payed for the 9 days presumably he ate in the mess.

The key question is was he actualy seen there? Evidence seems to point to the fact he was not.

Quote[/b] ]May 1972

Bush asks for and receives permission to continue his duties in Alabama while he works as political director on the Senate campaign of Winton M. Blount, a friend of his father. Loses flight credentials after missing physical exam.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4230576/

Again my use of bold.

Kind Regards Walker

[Pipski 0]

Have there been any more revelations Stateside about how Bush actually got his NG position? A documentary here last year maintained (and backed up with eyewitness testimony) that he leapfrogged thousands of other candidates with better aptitude scores etc. to get in and avoid the draft.

And to those who feel that this is a non-issue with regards to the presidential elections, I can see where you're coming from but I'd point out that the willingness to save his own worthless hide, exaggerate his exploits and bask in the reflected honour of other veterans implies, to me, that this man is not trustworthy to be president. Whether he did 9 days or 9 years isn't the issue, it's what it says about the man that counts.

Of course, not my country, not my choice.

[theavonlady 2]

Bush asks for and receives permission to continue his duties in Alabama

If he received permission, wouldn't that diss your plans for a fraud criminal investigation?

I hope so, since the investigation is sure to cost us taxpayer's a fortune more than Bush's payroll.

[Supah 0]

America spends something like 25 times more than the next largest military power.  Yet, we are among the least in spending with respect to foreign aid and providing our own citizens with adequate healthcare and an equal education.  You think maybe we could have spent some of that money in other places?

And on the other side america has a large percentage of kids growing up beneath the poverty line. But there is money to make tax cuts that help the top 1% the most

Same sex marraige and womens right to choose being changed when ever a president comes in power who decided to use christianity as a way to win votes. Honest representation in government regardless of wealth a farce. An election system that didnt produce a clear winner but instead someone who apparently had his brother and his cronies rig it. An election system that doesnt work on the basis of one man (or person) one vote. A president who has managed to single handedly destroy all the goodwill and compasion for america people felt after 9/11, who has started a war of aggresion under false pretenses, who is about to abandon the country he promissed to build up after that war just like he did to afghanistan. We see him giving contracts rebuilding Iraq out to companies of his political buddies like halliburton ... NOT to the Iraqi companies who could have done just as good a job and would have gotten more money circulating in the local economy.

Lets say its time for a change from the european point of view

[walker 0]

Hi Avon

Err? Your missing the point.

Yes he was told he could go there and serve part of his Air National Guard service. The records show that he got the permmision.

Yes he was payed for this time. The freshly released pay records show he was payed for the time he was suposed to spend there.

The records and witness statements point to the fact he was not there.

Quote[/b] ]May 1972

Bush asks for and receives permission to continue his duties in Alabama while he works as political director on the Senate campaign of Winton M. Blount, a friend of his father. Loses flight credentials after missing physical exam.

Quote[/b] ]But retired Army Col. Dan Smith, a 26-year military veteran, questioned the usefulness of the latest information.

“Pay records don’t mean anything except that you’re in or you’re out,†Smith said. “It doesn’t necessarily reflect what duty you’ve actually performed because pay records simply record your unit of assignment and then all of your pay and benefits per pay period. In terms of actually reporting for your duty, that would not be reflected on the pay notification, or pay stub.â€

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4230576/

Quote[/b] ]But one of Mr. Bush's commanding officers, Lt. Col. William Turnipseed, has said that while he is not sure, he does not remember Mr. Bush reporting for duty. The Alabama Guard, meanwhile, has no record of Mr. Bush's service in the state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/11/politics/11BUSH.html?hp

If such is the case the fraud question is raised.

Please correct me if I am wrong but defrauding the taxpayer in this way is a felony in the US.

Quote[/b] ]Guard officials said on Tuesday that is possible to have as many missed dates as Mr. Bush did and still make them up, as long as a member talks over the absences with his or her commander. Guard members also say that it was possible to be paid in 1972 and 1973 without actually turning up for the service dates because of relaxed record keeping at the time.

Back in 1972, the Alabama National Guard had about 19,500 members, with fewer than 3,000 of those members serving in the Alabama Air National Guard. The 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group, the air unit Mr. Bush was expected to report to in September 1972, but did not at the time, is based at Dannelly Air National Guard Base in Montgomery.

Quote[/b] ]According to those same reports, it was rare, though not unheard of, for Alabama guard members to be disciplined for failing to show up for training. In 1972, for example, 43 Alabama guard members were disciplined for "continuous absence from drills," the records state. The records, however, do not identify those disciplined.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004....ed=2&hp

Was George Bush Jnr. one of the 43 Alabama guard members disciplined for "continuous absence from drills," in 1972? is a simple question to be asked at the next press conference.

It would there for require a special prosecutor to investigate the obvious discrepancy and clear it up.

As to the cost of an investigation peanuts compared to the US's record debt under TBA.

Kind Regards Walker

[theavonlady 2]

Err? Your missing the point.

If he had permission not to be there, maybe he didn't have to be present for drills.

Was he one of the one's disciplined? 1) I would think this would show up on his record. 2) It's pure speculation at present to assume he was.

This particular detail is not worth fussing over, IMO, at the moment. When someone actually digs up the facts, you won't have to fantasize anymore, one way or the other.

[walker 0]

Err? Your missing the point.

If he had permission not to be there, maybe he didn't have to be present for drills.

Was he one of the one's disciplined? 1) I would think this would show up on his record. 2) It's pure speculation at present to assume he was.

This particular detail is not worth fussing over, IMO, at the moment. When someone actually digs up the facts, you won't have to fantasize anymore, one way or the other.

Hi Avon

What proof is there he had permission not to attend drills?

Also who gave would give him permission to not attend drills, where is the record?

And if he had permission to not atend drills how come he was payed for not attending them?

The evidence is that he had permision to attend those drills in Alabama.

The evidence is that he was payed to attend those drills.

The evidence is that he did not attend the drills.

It all leads inevitably if such is the case to the fraud question.

Can someone tell me is fraud a felony in the US?

Hence the need for a special prosecutor and full investigation

Guess I will have to do some more hunting Walker

[Colossus 2]

Bush is a BIG loser. He could have ordered this papers from anybody.

STOP THIS COWERDLY ACTION BUSH !

You were a cowerd and still are that.

 John Kerry  

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]Sounds bad doesn't it? But what is really in this act? Maybe a stronger, better act could be passed whose passage would be prevented if this act were allowed to be pushed through. Any riders attached?

Also, we fought in Vietnam, not for human rights but to stem the tide of communism which we assumed would spread across the world under the "domino theory". Any assertion that we fought for rights is ridiculous and a red herring argument. For Christ's sake, we used napalm, cs, psyops, torture, assasination, carpet bombing and other obscene tactics in Vietnam, and we did it to support the corrupt South Vietnamese government.

I dug it up, and HR2833 is less about human rights, and more about bring US-Vietnam relations back from the brink of normalization and reverting them to resemble our policy towards Cuba more than anything- and we all know how well Cuba's human rights have been protected by ostracizing them from the world community. How exactly would you vote on a bill that allocates well over a million dollars for Radio Free Southeast Asia if you spent most of your Senate career working towards normalization of relations with Vietnam?

[denoir 0]

The evidence is that he was payed to attend those drills.

The evidence is that he did not attend the drills.

It all leads inevitably if such is the case to the fraud question.

Can someone tell me is fraud a felony in the US?

First of all, there is no evidence that he wasn't there. Second, if you don't show up to work and your employer chooses to pay you, then it's his problem - you're not comitting fraud.

Quote[/b] ]

Hence the need for a special prosecutor and full investigation

Rubbish. It is crap like this that make people forget the real issues. This is a non-issue. It was a pretty smart move to release these incomplete documents. They knew that all Bush-haters would readily jump all over it, getting distracted right when the WMD issue is heating up. Yeah, why bitch about the important stuff when we can bitch about nonsensical trivialities...

[walker 0]

The evidence is that he was payed to attend those drills.

The evidence is that he did not attend the drills.

It all leads inevitably if such is the case to the fraud question.

Can someone tell me is fraud a felony in the US?

First of all, there is no evidence that he wasn't there. Second, if you don't show up to work and your employer chooses to pay you, then it's his problem - you're not comitting fraud.

Quote[/b] ]

Hence the need for a special prosecutor and full investigation

Rubbish. It is crap like this that make people forget the real issues. This is a non-issue. It was a pretty smart move to release these incomplete documents. They knew that all Bush-haters would readily jump all over it, getting distracted right when the WMD issue is heating up. Yeah, why bitch about the important stuff when we can bitch about nonsensical trivialities...

Hi Denoir

You missed something in my last post:

Quote[/b] ]May 1972

Bush asks for and receives permission to continue his duties in Alabama while he works as political director on the Senate campaign of Winton M. Blount, a friend of his father. Loses flight credentials after missing physical exam.

He was supposed to be there for two days the documentry evidence says he was not at his physical checkup.

Quote[/b] ]But one of Mr. Bush's commanding officers, Lt. Col. William Turnipseed, has said that while he is not sure, he does not remember Mr. Bush reporting for duty. The Alabama Guard, meanwhile, has no record of Mr. Bush's service in the state.

The evidence is that he never attended his Alabama Guard duties.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4230576/

Both statements are there in black and white, as now, is the money paid by the state for his 2 days there in Alabama.

There is other evidence in this matter but I need to confirm it from original source before placing it before you.

You make a comparison between a private employer and a state employer. If you as a state employed doctor sign for pay to which you are not entiled I presume you are deamed to have commited fraud. Presumably George Bush Jnr. signed for the money he recieved. It would be intresting to see where he signed for reciept of wages for time he worked.

An investigation into this period while it would inevitably take up time of TBA in a US election year is clearly warented if a felony may have been commited. It was not stopped in the Clinton period so it cannot be stopped here.

PS I dont hate Bush. He is not worthy of my hate I reserve that for truly evil people. The man is only worthy of my mild dislike. I dislike Dick Cheyney, Donald Rumsfeld more and several others as well most are not US citizens. The people I hate are very few indeed. Most of them are in prison or dead.

As to the Iraq thread let us keep it in the Iraq thread.

Kind Regards Walker