The Iraq thread 3

[Akira 0]

I find it interesting that politicians and partisans keep throwing "Oh yeah? You voted for the war too!" around.

The point is most everybody wanted the war and went for it. Because Bush mislead everyone and outright lied about the WMDs.

Now the people that were mislead in voting for the resolution are saying "Wait a minute here. You lied to us." and people still throw yeah well you voted for it!

SO what!

Bush mislead us ALL. THAT is the point. Least there are politicians saying "WTF? You lied to us!" unlike Bush who is still touting "There are WMDs somewhere! I swear"

Hope that made sense.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/26/iraq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- An influential Shiite cleric in Iraq called Israel's assassination of the spiritual leader of Hamas a "dirty crime against Islam" and the September 11, 2001, terror attacks "a miracle from God."

Moqtada al-Sadr delivered a charged sermon at Friday prayers at a mosque near the holy city of Najaf, blasting Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for the killing of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, founder of Hamas.

and we are supposed to believe that Islam is rational, peace loving religion?

of course, given that they have to put up with Bremer, I see their frustration due to Bremer's inability to get things settled in Iraq.

there is idiot in every segment of our lives.

[SpongeBob 0]

Quote[/b] ]He then referred to the September 11 attacks as "a miracle from God.

"As we say, 'The rain starts with a drop,'" he said.

I don't like the sound of that.

[quicksand 0]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/26/iraq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- An influential Shiite cleric in Iraq called Israel's assassination of the spiritual leader of Hamas a "dirty crime against Islam" and the September 11, 2001, terror attacks "a miracle from God."

Moqtada al-Sadr delivered a charged sermon at Friday prayers at a mosque near the holy city of Najaf, blasting Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for the killing of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, founder of Hamas.

and we are supposed to believe that Islam is rational, peace loving religion?

of course, given that they have to put up with Bremer, I see their frustration due to Bremer's inability to get things settled in Iraq.

there is idiot in every segment of our lives.

What does what one cleric sais got to do with an entire religion that has billions of followers  

War has a way of showing the ugly side in every person.Having your freedom lost,seeing your brothers being sloughtered day after day,living every day on the edge and with the fear that you could be killed by one of those soldiers who seem to make no distinction between civillians and enemies(the list goes on and on) could make the most rational person say things such as this.

[Scorpio 0]

and we are supposed to believe that Islam is rational, peace loving religion?

Well at least their version isn't.

Seriously, I don't see why you people bother to listen to those 'religious leaders'...they're hilarious and actually amuse me with their 'lectures'.

[shinRaiden 0]

Well, if he contrived it all on his own, why did his cronies (and Clarke) stick their necks out with him? If they were fed BS from lower echolons, where is the outrage? Why let yourself get worked up by the political machinations of others?

If you can't joke about yourself and your alleged failings, you have no business being in charge of anything. If you can't juggle the absurd, sublime, serious, a grenade, and a chicken all at once, you have no business in the ME.

If you go and actually read the full report, and appendix D, you find the following:

Quote[/b] ]The July OIF suicides may be viewed as a spike when compared to the months before and after July, but

D-3

there was no continuing trend and no indication that any of the suicides were related to each other.

Were these people sane when they killed themselves? Were they drinking enough water to keep their brains hydrated? It gets a little warm that time of year. This was also the time when they were still working out the rotational details, so of course they didn't know the day and the hour and the minute and the second they would be flying home to go play xbox. I have a friend whose wife was finally able to have kids (couldn't for 10 years) just before he left to go to Kuwait. Did he CHOOSE to kill himself? No, he wanted to see his kids, and see them grow up. How about this study get repeated every month? I'll take the winter numbers, you can have the summer numbers, and we'll split the ones around deployment rotations. And randomize them based off of fibonacci progression through the digits of PI. There, now its all relative.

Quote[/b] ]Most suicides were committed by young males, a group that is typically high risk for suicide. ... The deployed force is comprised of a large number of young males who are a group with high suicide risk in the U.S. population.

That's nice, I'll do my best to personally offest things the other way (I could be classified in that bracket).

[Gollum1 0]

Very funny Mr. Bush

Quote[/b] ]US President George W Bush has sparked a political row by making a joke about the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

...

One pictured Mr Bush looking under a piece of furniture in the Oval Office, at which the president remarked: "Those weapons of mass destruction have got to be here somewhere."

Bush's Iraq WMDs joke backfires

Nice to see a president joking about the number one reason to invade Iraq. Nice to see a president joking about a war that already has cost a lot of blood on both sides.

Real classy...

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Nice to see a president joking about the number one reason to invade Iraq. Nice to see a president joking about a war that already has cost a lot of blood on both sides.

The whole audience laughed at the joke plus during has speech the President closed with the serious topic of the men and women in the armed forces. He thanked them for their service and sacrafice and paid them serveral well deserved compliments. That particular event is historically a light hearted affair.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I find it interesting that politicians and partisans keep throwing "Oh yeah? You voted for the war too!" around.

The point is most everybody wanted the war and went for it. Because Bush mislead everyone and outright lied about the WMDs.

Now the people that were mislead in voting for the resolution are saying "Wait a minute here. You lied to us." and people still throw yeah well you voted for it!

SO what!

Bush mislead us ALL. THAT is the point. Least there are politicians saying "WTF? You lied to us!" unlike Bush who is still touting "There are WMDs somewhere! I swear"

Hope that made sense.

Did not Clinton say Iraq had WMDs when he was president? Yes!

[miles teg 1]

And who is defending Clinton? Clinton misled us also. But at least he wasn't stupid enough to invade a country over flimsy evidence and outright lies.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]And who is defending Clinton?   Clinton misled us also.  But at least he wasn't stupid enough to invade a country over flimsy evidence and outright lies.

Blix lied too (following you)! Then Clinton used flimsy evidence and outright lies (your belief) to hit Iraq with a couple of missiles to try destroy some of the WMDs.

[SpecOp9 0]

Well because my topic was locked I'll post my responce here.

(go figure?)

Quote[/b] ]See, that's the thing though (and please forgive the bold and capslocks): THERE WERE NO WMDS, AND IRAQ HAD NO LINKS TO AL-QAEDA. That means that Bush, whether intentionally or no, led America off to war under false pretenses. That's not typically something a Commander-in-Chief should joke about.

Very true, you do have a point.  But he did have more reasons than just WOMD...He wantedto free the damn place of tyranny...is that something worth fighting for?  I think so.

Quote[/b] ]Better than joking about a decision that you made that killed thousands of people. I can guarantee you that LBJ never made any Tonkin Gulf Incident jokes during the Vietnam War (now where was that Communist gunboat? Was it over here...), and though I don't think they had the Correspondent's Dinner back then, I am almost positive that Truman, if given the opportunity, wouldn't have cracked an A-Bomb joke. Why? Because it is- say it with me now- un-Presidential.

Un Presidential?  People have been serious enough about this entire thing.  yes soldiers died, get over it, saying George Bush is an idiot wont magically bring them back alive.  We have eyes infront of our face to look ahead, not to look back.  People don't understand the GOOD outcome of this war...because frankly they are idiots.  

Americans only care for other Americans...they don't give a shit about the Iraqi people..

How about those idiots give statistics for how many Iraqis DIED instead of how many f*cking American soldiers died, and in the meantime they can stick those statistics up their Arses and maybey they will notice them.

[Schoeler 0]

(Rubs hands together and cracks knuckles)  Let's see here, where do I begin?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]"This is a very serious issue,'' Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe said Friday on "Good Morning America'' on ABC. "We've lost hundreds of troops, as you know, over there. Let's not be laughing about not being able to find weapons of mass destruction.''

Point well made Mr McAuliffe.  But then again, incase there "was" WOMD, I don't think anybody on the face of the earth would be laughing either with 100 nuclear missiles falling onto the horizon of the USA, and possibly other parts of the world that Terrorists hate.  Saddam is not against the terrorists, the idiot himself said he encourages Usama Bin laden and what he has done.  That's real smart.

Why do people think we have an army? Marines? navy Seals?  What are they used for?? WAR.  if your complaining that troops are being sent into combat, tough sh*t, they know what they are getting themselves into...their fault.

Let's say for the sake of argument that Iraq had WMD.  

Where would your 100 missiles raining down have come from if Saddam only had delivery systems like the scud that could only launch them about 500 miles?

Saddam and Bin Laden hated one another.  That is a documented fact.  You must be getting your intel from the same people the President does.

Having served for 6 years in our nation's military, I can tell you exactly why we have it.  I took an oath that made me state just why I was serving.  Let's see (scratches head) if I can remember this.  It was something along the lines of "To secure the blessings of liberty for the American people and to support and defend the Constitution of the United States."  

Where in there does it say I joined to shoot people in foreign countries on the whim of some asswipe who didn't even show up for his National Guard meetings (in wartime no less)?

For that matter, if WMD were the issue, why did we not invade Pakistan instead of Iraq?  Pakistan has:

1.  A brutal dictator responsible for violently taking control of his government and murdering any and all opponents.

2.  Nuclear Weapons.

3.  Runaway nuclear scientist who freely sold the technology to Iran, North Korea and God knows who else.  Do those countries sound familar?  They should, guess why?  They are all members of the President's so-called Axis of Evil.

Hmmm, there's something I'm forgetting about Pakistan, something important.  Oh! Oh!, I know what it was.....

Pakistan has:

4.  OSAMA BIN LADEN

So who was the real threat?

A.  Iraq, whose economy and military were crippled by sanctions, had no WMD and was tottering on revolution anyway.

Or

B.  Pakistan, who has WMD and a delivery system, proliferates it and is harboring the world's deadliest terrorist.

Color me crazy, but I'm picking B.

I think it would have been kinda hard for Bin Laden to get ahold of Iraqi WMD considering he is hiding in

Pakistan and he can likely just get the weapons there if he hasn't already.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Democratic candidate John Kerry's campaign said in a statement Thursday, ``If George Bush thinks his deceptive rationale for going to war is a laughing matter, then he's even more out of touch than we thought.''

That's not what he was laughing at, idiot.  Unlike you, he can at least pick apart the bad things that have happened and try and make people feel good about everything that's going on.  Lets give a sad speach Kerry, so all people can cry and blow their nose for bringing back horrible memories, smart decision dork That makes a good president?

Bush was laughing about the fact that we have not found any WMD.  Yet, it wasn't a laughing matter 1 year and 580 (American) and thousands more Iraqi lives ago.  In fact it was a serious enough matter for him to make the ultimate decision a President has to make:  Committing young men and women to fight and die on foreign soil.  If it was all just a joke then I think we might have better solved the matter diplomatically.  I don't see the humor in starting a war based upon erroneus or worse yet, fraudulent information.  I don't think it funny that The President of the United States sends our troops off to fight and gets us bogged down in a war and then comes back a year later and basically says "Oops, I slipped up, sheesh what a goof I am, I'm always getting this stuff wrong."

Well, guess what?  He's the fucking President, he's got his finger on the button, which is why he has the best and the brightest working for him.  Only, according to the best and the brightest, he ignored their counsel and made the ultimate decision in a halfassed (and apparently lighthearted) way.  

You think this sort of man is fit to be the leader of the free world?

I don't.

It's not the President's job to pick apart the bad things and make us feel all warm and fuzzy.  Leave that to Letterman and Leno.  It is the President's job to command our nation's military and to commit them only when we have all of the facts, and only when it is absolutely necessary.  He failed and yet he can joke about that.  How is that acceptable?  We wouldn't have to be made to feel better at all if he had done his job properly.

Quote[/b] ]People make mistakes, even the greatest of all people make BIG mistakes.  Why can't people see this?  This is all by memory so correct me if I am wrong.  But Napoleon declared war with Russia, Russia got smart and pulled back and when Napoleon reached Moscow, he ordered his thousands of men to head back, and most of them died to disease, starvation, or froze to death.  Does this make Napoleon an idiot? No, it sure does not, he made a mistake.  Could have iraq snuck all the WOMD outside the country before US forces even reached Iraq?  COULD BE!  (but maybey not)

The President is the guy who is supposed to be responsible and level headed.  Can he be allowed to make mistakes?  No.  Sure, it is going to happen, he is human after all, but when he fucks up, people die, countries fall and economies come apart.  It isn't like you or I, where if we fuck up at work, the worst that will happen is maybe getting fired.  The President has to make the right decision.  To borrow your analogy, that is just part of the job.  He knew what he was getting into in the first place.  Don't like it?  Don't accept the office.

Quote[/b] ]People just don't realize these "soldiers" arent meant to sit back and have a few beers and attend parades.  They sign up because they are willing to risk their lives TO SERVE AND PROTECT.  Just because 5 hundred soldiers were killed, does'nt mean it was'nt worth sending in the army to Iraq to prevent millions of more lives from ending...

Soldiers are meant to train and prepare for wars that hopefully, never happen.  Like a gun in the house, just because I have it, does not mean I should wander around the neighborhood casually and carelessly pointing it at people, or God forbid shoot someone just for the sake of using it to see how well it works.  You have obviously never served, and judging by the lack of logic in your post, i'm guessing you are young.

Cheer up however, you may just get the opportunity to see combat first hand.  Rumor is if Bush gets re-elected they are going to start drafting young men.  Have you heard all the "Register for Selective Service.  It's your duty!" ads on the radio and TV.  Wanna venture to guess why this has become so important recently?

The prospect of soldiers getting blown up or killed might not seem so enticing to you now I'll bet.

Quote[/b] ]We are paying for these guys to go to college!

Strange, because the Bush administration just cut the VA funding for wounded veterans.  Sure, we'll pay for your school if you make it home alive, but don't come whining to us for a prosthetic leg or arm, or training on how to read in braille.  It's not our fault you are permanently debilitated.  You should have seen that improvised explosive device anyway.

Quote[/b] ]Yea McAuliffe, the soldiers in iraq are having one hell of a shitty time!

Your right, it's a blast (literally) serving in a combat zone.  I can see the travel posters now:

Welcome to sunny Iraq, all the bullets and booby traps you can hope to encounter.  Be sure to bring your camera!  Plenty of photo opportunities to get snapshots of mutilated corpses, children accidently shot at checkpoints or your buddy dying!

The trip is nearly cost free, simply sign up to serve your nation and go.  Unforseen expenses may accrue that you will be responsible for however.  For example, it may cost you and arm and a leg, or even some of your guts if you aren't careful!

[SpecOp9 0]

Yea, be careful what contracts you sign, because usually "soldiers" go into "combat".

These guys know what they are getting themselves into.

If this is a big suprise to people, somebody needs to hit them over the head with a frying pan a couple dozen times..

[Schoeler 0]

Whoooosh!

Know what that sound is?

It was the sound of the point rushing over your head.

Soldiers sign up to fight and die, if it is absolutely necessary.

What they don't do is sign up to fight and die when it isn't.

Soon, soldiers won't even be signing up, they'll be getting drafted.

Are you of draft age?

How appealing does it sound to you to go over to Iraq for one year?

You may just get that opportunity.

[SpecOp9 0]

Even if I were to be drafted, I highly doubt you will go behind enemy lines, or into the Iraqi border for that matter.  If I were ever drafted, then obviously "shit happens", obiously I'll be pissed about it, obviously I'll moan and groan about it, but seriously I highly doubt a draft will happen.  We still got parents in the entire COuntry who wont even let their kids walk down the sidewalk at night, I'm pretty damn sure they would do something about the country sending their children into war.

I understand what you mean by Soldiers sign up to fight and die, if it is absolutely necessary.  But I still think this is not relevant, because there is no written law that says this.  Or is there?  We went to World War II for what reason?  Was it "asbolutely necessary?"

It's plain simple, Americans need to wake up, and for once, give a crap about other people than themselves.

To see all those Iraqi people happy as a clam I would have to say it's a great god damn thing we are doing for other people around the world..

[Schoeler 0]

Quote[/b] ]Even if I were to be drafted, I highly doubt you will go behind enemy lines, or into the Iraqi border for that matter. If I were ever drafted, then obviously "shit happens", obiously I'll be pissed about it, obviously I'll moan and groan about it, but seriously I highly doubt a draft will happen. We still got parents in the entire COuntry who wont even let their kids walk down the sidewalk at night, I'm pretty damn sure they would do something about the country sending their children into war.

The government is right now considering a draft. The rumor is that the Bush administration will enact one after re-election. The government is at this very moment airing "register with selective service" spots on the radio and TV. They have spent millions of dollars doing so for the first time in years. Guess why?

And what are the parents going to do? What did their parents do when they got drafted to serve in Vietnam? If there is a draft, there won't be anything that can be done. You will simply have to serve or run to Canada. Oh, and incidently, there would be a draft for replacement soldiers to be sent for a one year tour in Iraq. The best estimates are that we are going to be there for 5-10 years, so if you were drafted, you would be going.

Quote[/b] ]I understand what you mean by Soldiers sign up to fight and die, if it is absolutely necessary. But I still think this is not relevant, because there is no written law that says this. Or is there? We went to World War II for what reason? Was it "asbolutely necessary?"

Read the Constitution.

We went to WWII because the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and the Germans were kicking our allies asses. We went to war because we had to then. We certainly didn't need to exercise the war option first in this case.

[SpecOp9 0]

hmm...very true..

Quote[/b] ]The government is right now considering a draft.  The rumor is that the Bush administration will enact one after re-election.  The government is at this very moment airing "register with selective service" spots on the radio and TV.

Does this also count for children with no brothers and/or sisters?

[Schoeler 0]

I don't know. The draft these days is a lottery, your number comes up, you get reclassified as 1A and off to bootcamp you go.

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]Just because 5 hundred soldiers were killed, does'nt mean it was'nt worth sending in the army to Iraq to prevent millions of more lives from ending...

That's quite a statement, are you suggesting saddam would have eliminated almost 10% of his population? Do you think he would have been able to pull it off or willing to do it?

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]A brutal dictator responsible for violently taking control of his government and murdering any and all opponents.

Whoa who did Musharraf kill schoeler?

Hes the most lenient dictator IF you wanna call him that i have ever seen , i mean i dont see him slaughtering people of the street just because they dont agree.

Hes already dedicated the Pak army whos suffered casualties facing of AQ and co in Northern areas , what more can you ask of a guy whos had life killing attempts on him 3 times by now and is still helping by bringing terrorists to justice.

Sometimes western thinking just goes over me

[joltan 0]

Quote[/b] ]The government is right now considering a draft. The rumor is that the Bush administration will enact one after re-election. The government is at this very moment airing "register with selective service" spots on the radio and TV.

Does this also count for children with no brothers and/or sisters?

If it is like in most countries that have a draft being the only child is no protection. However being the 3rd or 4th (depending on the country) may keep them from drafting you - if your elder brothers served already.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's plain simple, Americans need to wake up, and for once, give a crap about other people than themselves.

To see all those Iraqi people happy as a clam I would have to say it's a great god damn thing we are doing for other people around the world..

I missed the smily after your post.

If you seriously think that way you must have missed the news for at least 12 months.

You don´t do great things in Iraq and you already give a crap about other people than yourself.

That´s fact today. You can wipe it of your funny "wishlist".

Go back under your stone

[walker 0]

Hi all

George Bush makes soldiers and innocent civilians deaths in Iraq War a Joke

http://www.boston.com/news....iticism

The news that TBA is to bring in the draft if it gets elected is something we have been predicting for the last 6 or seven months.

The millitary situation means that troops are already being kept on after the dates they signed up for and more reserves get called up each day.

With Spain opting to pull out if the UN is not put in charge of operations in Iraq and even Poland starting to voice its doubts about the validity of the reasons for going to war; TBA have sucessfuly bol**xed up a world coalition that after 9/11 was united in wanting to do something about Al Qaida.

Now many who trusted TBA on the WMD threat and links to Al Qaida find they were lied to or were believed a foolish and criminaly neglegent TBA and TBA2.

What does George Bush Jnr. have to say for himself: Oops it was a Boo Boo, I cant find the WMD, funny huh? Ha ha ha!

No George wasting billions and billions of tax payers money is not funny.

No George a world with more terrorism than ever is not funny.

No George ingnoring the increasing terrorism while fighting imaginary enemies is not funny.

No George cutting Veterans funds after wasting veterans lives and limbs is not funny.

No George a country decimated is not funny.

No George watching your countries and other coalition countries brave soldiers come home in body bags is not funny

No George 10,000 plus dead and many times more mutilated is not funny.

Not in a good humour walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

Selective Service has denied it has orders to institute the draft Well sort of it hasnt realy.

Quote[/b] ]Notwithstanding recent stories in the news media and on the Internet, Selective Service is not getting ready to conduct a draft for the U.S. Armed Forces -- either with a special skills or regular draft.  Rather, the Agency remains prepared to manage a draft if and when the President and the Congress so direct. This responsibility has been ongoing since 1980 and is nothing new.  Further, both the President and the Secretary of Defense have stated on more than one occasion that there is no need for a draft for the War on Terrorism or any likely contingency, such as Iraq.  Additionally, the Congress has not acted on any proposed legislation to reinstate a draft.  Therefore, Selective Service continues to refine its plans to be prepared as is required by law, and to register young men who are ages 18 through 25.

Bold used in original but My use of underline

http://www.sss.gov/

I thought I would check up the word notwithstanding as it is a nice legal word

In means

Quote[/b] ]In spite of the fact that; although

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Notwithstanding

In other words a denial that is not a denial.

In the UK we call those weasel words. The kind lawyers use in the small print.

For those of you likely to be in the age group I suggest considering looking into this and aplying for a version of service you would be hapiest in before a draft comes in to play.

For those of you who want to be a War Dodger like the Vietnam War Dodger George Bush Jnr. and get themselves a cushy spot in a champaign squadron of the Texas Air national guard. Forget it. They dont do that any more. Instead go to jail with the courage of your convictions or apply to be a contientious objector and do your draft national service as a medic.

Kind Regards Walker