The Iraq thread 3

[mr burns 132]

I guess you very well know, that your first link is dated 01.04.200<span style='font-size:27pt;line-height:100%'>3</span>... You fool, you...    

damnit...i checked 3 times and it looked like 2004 all the time    

the video: media´s a whore... this night they screened the video almost uncut (mutilation .. don´t wanna go into detail) and, in no relationship to falludja, they even added the scene where somali-population drag a naked GI across mogadishu.

today i watched the report again on their internet presence.

now the reporter voice tells that they don´t want to send the whole video and also cut some scenes in order to respect the dead .. that´s ok i agree, but what the hell did they think last night ? they act as if respect to the dead depends on daytime/nighttime, that bites me.

edit: sp

[EiZei 0]

In fact march was the month with the almost highest casualties count after "war" has ended. Only outranked by november 2004.

So the worst is yet to come?  

Guess our media is just a bunch of pussies, I did not see even a cut version of the video clip on TV.

[Ironsight 1]

Guess our media is just a bunch of pussies, I did not see even a cut version of the video clip on TV.

I think you mean un-cut and you should be happy you didn't saw it. Describe it in one word: Horrible. It was way worse than Somalia.

[Postduifje 0]

Guess our media is just a bunch of pussies, I did not see even a cut version of the video clip on TV.

I think you mean un-cut and you should be happy you didn't saw it. Describe it in one word: Horrible. It was way worse than Somalia.

Indeed, it made me sick to watch too, I can't believe they show that stuff in public... Getting the facts as completely as possible is important, but this was horror

[SpongeBob 0]

In Somalia, you can make out who the body was, but the ones yesterday were so burnt, you cannot tell who it was.

[Ironsight 1]

Indeed, it made me sick to watch too, I can't believe they show that stuff in public... Getting the facts as completely as possible is important, but this was horror

So you watched RTL4 too?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Why?

Walker put "". What does that mean?

Quote[/b] ]In Somalia, you can make out who the body was, but the ones yesterday were so burnt, you cannot tell who it was.

But somehow their names will come out with pictures or videos of them.

[Bernadotte 0]

Quote[/b] ]Why?

Walker put "". What does that mean?

He was probably casting some doubt on the claim that the contractors were no longer working for special forces, especially considering they were still carrying dogtags and military ID.  But, you should really ask Walker.

I'd still like to know why you think ex should be used instead of former.  

[billybob2002 0]

Those men were to provide security for transportation of THEIR (city) food.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115822,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

The four worked for Blackwater Security Consulting of Moyock, N.C., which provides training and guard services to customers around the world. The company, a subsidiary of Blackwater USA, referred calls to a spokesman in suburban Washington who declined comment beyond a statement that said Blackwater was a government subcontractor providing security for the delivery of food in the Fallujah area.

Dumbasses

[Postduifje 0]

Indeed, it made me sick to watch too, I can't believe they show that stuff in public... Getting the facts as completely as possible is important, but this was horror

So you watched RTL4 too?

precies ja

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'd still like to know why you think ex should be used instead of former.

I just like to use "ex".

Quote[/b] ]He was probably casting some doubt on the claim that the contractors were no longer working for special forces, especially considering they were still carrying dogtags and military ID.  But, you should really ask Walker.

I have found military ID in a used car of a RETIRED army

private. It had his branch of service, rank, social security number, and etc. on it.

Those people probably kept their dogtags.

Here what blackwater does:

Quote[/b] ]Privately owned Blackwater USA's range of services include providing firearms and small-groups training for Navy SEALs, police department SWAT teams and former special operations personnel

[miles teg 1]

Those men were to provide security for transportation of THEIR (city) food.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115822,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

The four worked for Blackwater Security Consulting of Moyock, N.C., which provides training and guard services to customers around the world. The company, a subsidiary of Blackwater USA, referred calls to a spokesman in suburban Washington who declined comment beyond a statement that said Blackwater was a government subcontractor providing security for the delivery of food in the Fallujah area.

Dumbasses

Billybob...  that is what they told the media.  PMC's tell lies all the time.  I wonder what happened to the vehicles with all the food?  Funny those weren't attacked and looted.

PMC's have been used by the US government for quite some time.  One of the biggest is Dyncorp.  They have a reputation for doing alot of the US government's dirty work in Colombia.

Also careful with the insults. Plenty of people have gotten banned from this forum for that.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[miles teg 1]

In Somalia, you can make out who the body was, but the ones yesterday were so burnt, you cannot tell who it was.

Yeah I agree... you could barely identify them as being human they were so burnt up.

It was still gruesome...but just part of war. There's lots of other nasty stuff the media doesn't show or talk about like US soldiers getting their throats slit and stuff like that.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Also careful with the insults.  Plenty of people have gotten banned from this forum for that.

Was talking about those Iraqi "people" who were in the mob not any forum member.

Quote[/b] ]I wonder what happened to the vehicles with all the food?  Funny those weren't attacked and looted.

Maybe they were planning their route or something. If they were do something not nice for the governement then why whould they carry their military id and dog tags....

Here is a good read about Blackwater USA:

http://www.corpwatch.org/news/PND.jsp?articleid=10228

Apart of Blackwater USA website:

http://www.blackwatersecurity.com/

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Quote[/b] ]No, you didn't. What I said was that the thesis of your post was clearly an effort to disprove that statement.

No. Neither did I use the phrase, nor am I the father of this quote. It has nothing to do with my post.

*sigh* Look, what I mean is that the intent of your post was obviously to disprove that statement, which was made by another forum member. I never credited it to you in any other way, shape, or form.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]I asked how you would feel. A little offended, maybe?

I don´t "feel" when it comes to my job. I would act like I already said. "Feelings" have nothing to do with my job. Maybe you´ll find out yourself someday why this is so.

Whatever. Does this mean you don't "feel" the temptations that you alluded to earlier? All I'm trying to get at is that maybe, just maybe, you should be more tactful in your statements to avoid the appearance of flamebaiting. Posting what amounts to anti-American propaganda as a support for a claim is bound to offend someone, and that someone may feel the need to respond in kind. It doesn't further your cause in any way, and it lowers the level of discourse. Still, the point is essentially moot.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]However, you can know all you want, but if you can't prove it, spare the invective.

Well I can tell you the story and post it with the pictures I took. But this will give me at least a PR. That´s not worth it. If I remember right someone has already confirmed this story here at these forums.

That's fine- a friend of mine is a Marine who served in Mogadishu as an 0331 out at the international airport, so I've heard stories as well. The point is that making offhand mentions to these stories is completely unconstructive. Either post a sanitized version that won't get you a PR, or just stop alluding to it. It makes no difference to me either way. And please don't think that I'm indirectly calling you a liar, because I'm not.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]"did you even read my post?"

Yes but you didn´t answer my question. Did you see the film ?

No, I haven't seen the film. What of it? The only thing I'm arguing against is whether or not Americans were involved in the atrocities, not the veracity of the documentary or the extent of the killings. I even went as far as to produce an interview with the creator of the documentary, and even he says that their is no hard evidence linking American troops to the massacres.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]So what's the count at? Two examples shot down, and now you're falling back on anecdotal evidence that only you have access to. Shall we move on?

There is no count.I am not falling back. I said that I chose one wrong example in a hurry.Not two. I posted the right one and you can´t argue it away this time. If you think so you´re at the wrong place.

Okay, obviously one of us is missing something somewhere. If you didn't post the Convoy Massacre example to prove that Americans took part in war crimes in Afghanistan, why did you post it? It seems to me that you're clinging to the idea that I'm in some way denying that the massacre occurred (which I have not). I'd just like to get this clarified.

Quote[/b] ]And what you call "anecdotal" is a big part of my life. Anecdotes are something funny to remember. I had no fun and people who got killed or injured failed to have fun also. So you are trying to make fun of it. There is no fun to be made about people getting killed.

Quote[/b] ]an·ec·dote   n.

1. A short account of an interesting or humorous incident.

pl. an·ec·dotes or an·ec·do·ta (-dt)

2. Secret or hitherto undivulged particulars of history or biography.

3. A particular or detached incident or fact of an interesting nature; a biographical incident or fragment; a single passage of private life.

4. short account of an incident (especially a biographical one)

You've misunderstood my use of the word. Anecdotal evidence merely means use of a story to prove a point. I'm not trying to demean or belittle anyone here.

Quote[/b] ]I´ll gladly move on but I won´t accept such "playing down" things from a person who has no idea of what he is talking about and only argues to be winner of the "argueing" contest. You may think that you have to prove your ability to fullfill the "best debator" role, but you fail to argue things that can´t be argued away.

Look, I can accept that maybe you misunderstood some things I've said, but there's no need to be hostile about it. I give you due respect, hoping that maybe I'll get some in return. If that's not the way it's going to be, then that's regrettable. Also, please don't make this about that damn title under my name. I never asked for it- I debate and argue because I enjoy it and learn from it, not to elevate my position in others' eyes.

Quote[/b] ]You go personal while you should go on debating facts.

Look, sorry for any misunderstanding, but believe me when I say that I have meant no harm by anything I've typed up in the course of this. As for arguing facts, I'm not the one posting propaganda, alluding to personal stories which you then don't divulge, and questioning my motives in even being involved in this discussion. I've layed out some extremely concise arguments, and have gotten very little but flak in return.

[walker 0]

Hi billybob2002

The rumour that is floating round is that the men killed were members of L. Paul Bremer's, head of the U.S. occupation authority in Iraq, body guard and were known to him personaly

Quote[/b] ]Blackwater Security Consulting, of Moyock, N.C., which, among other jobs in Iraq, helps guard L. Paul Bremer, head of the U.S. occupation authority in Iraq.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41305-2004Apr1.html

It is common for special services people to resign from the service do a well paid stint in a mercinary company like Blackwater Security Consulting or Sandline International or similar and then come back into the service with no loss of pension or benefits, many in the UK SAS have done so.

They often work for nations alied to the UK or in areas of strategic interest to the UK. They train local soldiers and bodyguards for leaders of state and provide close personal protection for the leader. They sometimes become involved in training insurgents against opressive regimes that their own nation disaproves of.

Most nations in the world have such companies they draw on their personel and funding often lead one to believe they are a deniable asset to the host nations security policy.

As a policing force in an occupation they are probably illegal under the rules of war but they are allowed to act as close personal protection.

Kind Regards Walker

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]The rumour that is floating round is that the men killed were members of L. Paul Bremer's, head of the U.S. occupation authority in Iraq, body guard and were known to him personaly

Why would they be in Fallujah if they were supposely to protect Bremer? Blackwater does have a agreement to provide security for the food convoys in the Fallujah area. The question is what were they doing.

Quote[/b] ]As a policing force in an occupation they are probably illegal under the rules of war but they are allowed to act as close personal protection.

They are doing the protection jobs (oil wells, convoys, and etc.).

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]The question is what were they doing.

Let me answer my own question. They were providing security for a food convoy (blackwater statement).

[walker 0]

Quote[/b] ]The question is what were they doing.

Let me answer my own question. They were providing security for a food convoy (blackwater statement).

Hi billybob2002

Just checked the link you gave for the job the contractors were doing at the time. While it says Blackwater provide guards for food transport it does not say the food is for the Iraqis in Falujah and it does not say the contractors were guarding food.

Could you give us the actual article that says they were guarding a food convoy?

Kind Regards Walker

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Could you give us the actual article that says they were guarding a food convoy?

You need to get The Washington Post newspaper for April 1 and look on page A20.

[billybob2002 0]

Three of the four civilians have been ID'd

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115908,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

Jerko "Jerry" Zovko, 32, Michael Teague, 38, and Scott Helvenston, 38, died with another civilian Wednesday after they were hit by rocket-propelled grenades in a rebel ambush. The victims worked for Blackwater Security Consulting, one of five subsidiaries of Blackwater USA based in North Carolina.

Quote[/b] ]

Jerry Zovko joined the Army in 1991 at age 19. He spoke five languages fluently -- English, Croatian, Spanish, Russian and Arabic. He was a member of the 82nd Airborne Division (search) at Fort Bragg in North Carolina, Tom Zovko said.

Quote[/b] ]

Teague, of Clarksville, Tenn., was a 12-year Army veteran who earned a Bronze Star for service in Afghanistan and also served in Panama and Grenada, his wife, Rhonda, said in a prepared statement. She called her husband a "proud father, soldier and American."

Teague had worked in the security business since he left the Army six years ago, but he joined Blackwater Security only two months ago, WTVF-TV of Nashville reported.

Quote[/b] ]

Helvenston lived in Leesburg, Fla., before joining the Navy when he was 17. He served with the Navy SEALs for 12 years and later worked as a fitness promoter, starting a company called Amphibian Athletics. He also was an actor and stunt man for movies including "G.I. Jane," according to a company Web site.

RIP

[Balschoiw 0]

That doesn´t sound like "convoy protecting" personel.

Anyway where was that convoy they were talking about ? I have not seen a truck on a pic nor was there at least one mentioned in newsreports. So what convoy are they talking about ?

A ghost convoy ?

[walker 0]

Hi billybob2002

Your pointer about the Washington post seems incorect. I was refering to

Those men were to provide security for transportation of THEIR (city) food.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115822,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

The four worked for Blackwater Security Consulting of Moyock, N.C., which provides training and guard services to customers around the world. The company, a subsidiary of Blackwater USA, referred calls to a spokesman in suburban Washington who declined comment beyond a statement that said Blackwater was a government subcontractor providing security for the delivery of food in the Fallujah area.

Dumbasses

I thought it was odd when you said they as Iraqis had attacked people bringing them food. The Iraqis there have no problems with food supply in that area.

Quote[/b] ]A Blackwater spokesman said the men were guarding a convoy on its way to deliver food to troops under a subcontract to a company named Regency Hotel and Hospitality.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43364-2004Apr1.html

Kind Regards Walker

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I thought it was odd when you said they as Iraqis had attacked people bringing them food. The Iraqis there have no problems with food supply in that area.

My bad. That company was not in the newspaper.

Quote[/b] ]That doesn´t sound like "convoy protecting" personel.

Anyway where was that convoy they were talking about ? I have not seen a truck on a pic nor was there at least one mentioned in newsreports. So what convoy are they talking about ?

A ghost convoy ?

Maybe they were ahead of the convoy while others say backed (recon)?

[billybob2002 0]

It seems now the Marines are going to finally do something about Fallujah.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43397-2004Apr1.html

Quote[/b] ]

He (Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt), later added: "We will be back in Fallujah. It will be at a time and a place of our choosing. We will hunt down the criminals. We will kill them or we will capture them, and we will pacify Fallujah."

Quote[/b] ]

Sana Mohammed Ali discussed the attacks in a dress shop with a friend. She quoted the son-in-law of the prophet Muhammad: "We all know Imam Ali's saying: 'A human being is either a brother to you in Islam or your equal in humanity.' The people who killed them are lunatics. We felt sorry when we saw the scene. We felt very bad about it."

Many Iraqis frowned and noted that the Koran specifically forbids mutilation of the dead.

"It was all very wrong," said Jasim Mohammed in the Adhamiya neighborhood, which is known for revering Hussein and resisting the occupation. "People don't approve the action yesterday. They say it was a big mistake."