The Iraq thread 3

[EiZei 0]

Yeah, luckily they managed to stop the horde of al-qaeda panzers on the east coast.. oh wait.

[ran 0]

Yeah, luckily they managed to stop the horde of al-qaeda panzers on the east coast.. oh wait.

he managed to lose a the Manhattan blitzkrieg battle air war though ...

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]he managed to lose a the Manhattan blitzkrieg battle air war though ...

Low blow...[insert comment that could piss somebody off... ]

Quote[/b] ]It is quite obvious he takes everyone to be complete and utter idiots doesn't he.  What a moron...  

Principle is the word my man. [Defeat Facism/whatever and bring democracy to parts of Europe/Asia:Defeat Extremist/dictators and bring democracy to the middle east; Cold War: events in Europe influenced it, War on Terror: events in the Middle East influence it]

[ran 0]

Quote[/b] ]he managed to lose a the Manhattan blitzkrieg battle air war though ...

Low blow...[insert comment that could piss somebody off... ]

Heh who said I was playing in the classy league ?

For all the things some of your countrymen said about us... any chance must be taken.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Heh who said I was playing in the classy league ?

For all the things some of your countrymen said about us... any chance must be taken.

Takes off ze gloves and puts the crazy cap on...Puts gloves back on because this not worth it and there are too many jokes about France out right now....

"Finally, this week the French soldiers have showed up in Afghanistan. Figures just like the French to show up after the hard work has been done."

"Q: What do you call a Frenchman advancing on Baghdad?

A: A salesman. "

"Q:Why do we need France on our side against Saddam and Osama?

A:So the French can show them how to surrender. "

"Thousands of have died in France because of a heat wave.

Now the French are surrendering to the weather? "

I do not support these jokes (but any chances must be taken....   )

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]It is quite obvious he takes everyone to be complete and utter idiots doesn't he.  What a moron...  

Principle is the word my man. [Defeat Facism/whatever and bring democracy to parts of Europe/Asia:Defeat Extremist/dictators and bring democracy to the middle east; Cold War: events in Europe influenced it, War on Terror: events in the Middle East influence it]

Hahahaha, you're joking right?  If anything the US is the agressor comparable to the Nazis, what is so difficult to comprehend about starting a war and butchering thousands for no worthwile cause.

EDIT: And yea "Lest we forget", we DO forget...

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Hahahaha, you're joking right?  If anything the US is the agressor comparable to the Nazis, what is so difficult to comprehend about starting a war and butchering thousands for no worthwile cause.

Here comes the Iraqi governemnt "we did not do a thing" train....all aboard. I cannot wait when the ovens turn on for ze arabs....

Trying to bring democracy (touchy word) is a worthwhile thing...

[theavonlady 2]

If anything the US is the agressor comparable to the Nazis, what is so difficult to comprehend about starting a war and butchering thousands for no worthwile cause.

So, Nazism was a worthwhile cause, in your opinion?

I'll refrain from posting a pic I had in mind.

[bn880 5]

Trying to bring democracy (touchy word) is a worthwhile thing...

Not at all, bringing people democracy is worthless, it's imposing your ideas on another culture.  On the other hand removing serious opression, especially when it is what the population would prefer has some value to it, but it is not as easy as bringing chaos.  there had to be a plan in place, which for Iraq it looks like there wasn't.  Who was organized within the country to represent the majority of the people?  hmm AND most importantly it's HOW you help someone not what for, waging war was the dumbest way to fix the problem.

@Avon, maybe you should be a lawyer with catchy little things like that.  

[Badgerboy 0]

Quote[/b] ]Heh who said I was playing in the classy league ?

For all the things some of your countrymen said about us... any chance must be taken.

Takes off ze gloves and puts the crazy cap on...Puts gloves back on because this not worth it and there are too many jokes about France out right now....

"Finally, this week the French soldiers have showed up in Afghanistan. Figures just like the French to show up after the hard work has been done."

"Q: What do you call a Frenchman advancing on Baghdad?

A: A salesman. "

"Q:Why do we need France on our side against Saddam and Osama?

A:So the French can show them how to surrender. "

"Thousands of have died in France because of a heat wave.

Now the French are surrendering to the weather? "

I do not support these jokes (but any chances must be taken....   )

Sodding yanks. We were taking the piss out of France before it was cool!

Were the only ones who are allowed to do it!

[Jinef 2]

Sort of agree. We have a reason to take the piss out of them, 100 years war etc.

The Americans have had 2 major experiences with the French.

The first was being allies with the French in the war of independence, thus US independence is quite possibly reliant on the French as they helped fight off us Brits, along with indigenous people.

The second was when the US was a participant in two wars that brought shitloads of nasty destruction to France.

Eh

[theavonlady 2]

From the Iraq The Model blogger brothers, some of you just love to hate:

Quote[/b] ]Tuesday, June 01, 2004

The dogs bark but the caravan keeps moving.

Another similar Iraqi blog entry at Healing Iraq:

Quote[/b] ]Ghazi Al-Yawar

Sheikh Ghazi Ajeel Al-Yawar was announced yesterday as the first Iraqi President in post Saddam Iraq. I have to say that I have mixed feelings about Yawar. I found it a bit troubling that the head of the state is a tribal figure. Tribalism has been without doubt the most significant problem in Iraq (and the ME) for centuries, one that has been plaguing our urban societies and infecting them with a multitude of social diseases that have proven almost impossible to cure, problems that on the surface may seem to be dissipating from time to time, but which also have a high rate of recurrence .

I might be judging the man harshly, since this may not neccessarily apply to him personally, and I'm not denying his expertise and western education, however he will always be regarded as a symbol of our largely tribal society (maybe they were just being realistic?). Shortly after he was announced president, I noticed a few sheikhs following him around wearing the traditional Iraqi tribal dress, which is not a good sign at all.

On the other hand, I perceive that the majority of Iraqis have accepted him as president, even welcomed the decision, of course there will always be naysayers but for the first time in months I feel there is almost a consensus among Iraqis of all backgrounds. Also Yawar is known to have good relations with Kurds, is trusted by the Shia, is respected by other Arab nations, has a clean record, and belongs to a powerful wealthy well-known Iraqi family that leads the Shimmar tribal confederation, one of the largest tribes in Iraq, with both Sunni and Shi'ite clans, and spanning several neighbouring countries (such as Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey). That may be a unifying factor and one that Iraqis need badly at this moment of their history. After all the presidency is almost a symbolic title.

The cabinet is impressive. We now have 5 female ministers, which is an unprecedented step in the region. Just as Iraq was the first Arab country to have a female minister in 1958, it is now also the first Arab country to grant a larger role for women in the government. I expect a much larger percentage of women in the future National Assembly or parliament. The majority of ministers are independent politically, they are mostly technocrats, and come from all Iraqi social, ethnic, religious, and sectarian backgrounds. Many old players are absent such as Chalabi's INC. Also another interesting observation is that four of the ministers are also tribal figures.

So, perhaps I'm a bit optimistic today? Maybe. But Iraqis need to be optimistic at such a critical moment. There is no use in shrugging your shoulders and saying "I don't care.." anymore. You will be left behind along with the dark forces that insist on killing more Iraqis and disrupting the new changes. I'm confident that the Arab world is now watching Iraq with eyes wide open (or wide shut). Some Iraqis are saying the new government will be just a copy of the GC. It depends. Another problem is that I can already feel that the majority of Iraqis are expecting miracles from this new and young government. Unrealistic expectations tend to create endless problems and frustrations. Just like when the GC was formed, or when the Americans first entered Baghdad and people expected that their decades long problems would be fixed in a week.

***

I returned to the residence from work yesterday and headed, as usual, to the kitchen uncovering the various pots and pans before lunch. One of the doctors hollered to me from the living room where they were all fixated on the tv. "Ghazi Ajeel is the new president" one of them announced. "Whyyyyy?" I almost wailed. "Pachachi apologised, said the other GC members didn't want him to be president" the fundie doctor said. Actually I think Pachachi made a small gamble. I believe he is working for the 2005 elections. "So who's the vice president?" I asked them. "Ibrahim Al-Ja'ffari, and 'roast'.. ". "What 'roast'?" I asked puzzled. "Oh 'roast', you know like 'roast meat'". "I don't care if he is 'roast' or 'steak', but who is he?". "He's a Kurd, from the Kurdish Democrat Party". It turned out later that his name was Rosh Shawis.

I'll be heading back to Baghdad in a few hours.

# posted by zeyad : 6/3/2004 03:51:54 AM

[FSPilot 0]

The second was when the US was a participant in two wars that brought shitloads of nasty destruction to France.

Eh

Brought shitloads of French freedom too.

[theavonlady 2]

The second was when the US was a participant in two wars that brought shitloads of nasty destruction to France.

Eh

Brought shitloads of French freedom too.

Maybe some people can't bear the thought of the US and France actually agreeing on something every now and then.

Quote[/b] ]France salutes brave Americans

100 veterans to receive Legion d'Honneur

Wednesday, June 2, 2004 Posted: 1235 GMT (2035 HKT)

LONDON, England -- France is marking D-Day with a special tribute to the United States and its role in the Normandy landings which brought the liberation of Europe in 1944.

Differences over a very different war, in Iraq 60 years later, are being put aside as President Jacques Chirac salutes America for its part in ending World War II.

One hundred American veterans are to be flown to France, and will not only being feted with VIP status during the D-Day commemorations, but will also be awarded France's top honor -- the Legion d'Honneur.

Along with their families, they will be flown to Paris on a special Air France flight, housed at top hotels and taken by special train to Normandy for the D-Day ceremony with Chirac and U.S. President George W. Bush.

It is being seen in France as a gesture to assure Americans that France remembers, and remains grateful for, their World War II sacrifice.

"Since last year, there has been outrage in France over what was written in some U.S. media that France forgot what it owed the United States," said Nathalie Loiseau, spokeswoman for the French Embassy in Washington, D.C.

"Every French family has a story to tell ... we want to do all we can," she told Reuters.

In 1998, France observed the 80th anniversary of the World War I armistice by awarding Legion of Honor medals to American veterans of that conflict who served in France, but World War II veterans have mostly received certificates.

This year, the French government elevated the level of recognition.

The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs helped with the selection of the 100 new recipients of the Legion d'Honneur.

About 500 Americans have previously been given the award for various feats.

France will also honor veterans of other countries but not in such large numbers.

Paris' overture comes after a difficult and at times acrimonious period in U.S.-French relations.

French opposition to the U.S.-led war that ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein brought anger in America.

Cafes and restaurants in the U.S. renamed French fries as "freedom" fries and the country's embassy In Washington was inundated with hate mail.

Retired Air Force fighter pilot Richard Candelaria from Las Vegas, 81, is one of the 100 veterans from all over the U.S. receiving the awards, and the French royal treatment.

Candelaria, whose wife, daughter and 18-year-old grandson will accompany him to Paris, says he did not share the anti-French feelings of some of his countrymen.

"I have always had nothing but good relations with and good treatment from the French people," he told Reuters in a telephone interview from his home.

"I'm sorry the government doesn't always agree with ours. After all, they are a sovereign nation ... I would have preferred if they were completely on our side but they have a right to disagree," the retired colonel said.

Candelaria paints vivid pictures of his war service worthy of a movie script.

Assigned to the 8th fighter command, he flew bomber escorts over France, Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia and Norway.

In 1945, he was flying to meet up with his squadron when he encountered 15 or 16 German Messerschmitt fighters. He managed to shoot down at least four, possibly five. His plane suffered little damage.

A week later, on an escort mission over Germany near the Baltic Sea, he came under attack from several dozen anti-aircraft batteries and, wounded, had to bail out.

For 32 days, Candelaria was on the run, dodging men with pitchforks and German soldiers; getting captured and escaping; going hungry and then being treated kindly by enemy soldiers who shared their cognac with an American officer.

"I got back to France just in time for the war to be over in Europe," he told Reuters.

For all this, Candelaria is already highly decorated with the purple heart, the silver star, 12 oak leaf clusters, distinguished flying cross and croix de guerre with palm.

As for the Legion of Honor, he said: "I just feel extremely fortunate I was selected. I think the people who hit the beaches and climbed up the cliffs on D-day and the paratroopers really deserve it more than anyone but it is a tremendous honor for me."

This is going to be a big D-Day shindig in France and the French seem to be really beefing up security. So much so that:

Quote[/b] ]<a href="http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-dday31.html" target="_blank">

France pledges to shoot down private pilots in D-Day air space</a>

May 31, 2004

BY BEN FENTON

ARROMANCHES, France -- Private pilots who stray into Normandy air space during the 60th anniversary of D-Day next weekend will be shot down, French officials said Sunday.

With at least 16 heads of state, including President Bush, attending the ceremonies, organizers are guarding particularly against an al-Qaida attack from the air.

It is one of the biggest security exercises in Europe since the war.

An enormous network of radar equipment has been stretched between Deauville and Cherbourg, with early warning aircraft already in the skies.

The aircraft will be joined this week by small, remote-controlled drones.

Advanced Crotale anti-aircraft missiles have been primed, and two squadrons of Mirage 2000 fighters are stationed nearby.

The French ministry of defense has spared no expense. It has established a temporary air base at Carpiquet, outside the city of Caen, as the hub of its defenses.

There, more than 800 soldiers will maintain round-the-clock surveillance, backed by more than 50 military helicopters.

A spokesman for the 120-acre camp said: "The dangers are multiple, from a hijacked airliner being crashed into the stands at the main international ceremony at Arromanches to a tiny bomb being detonated remotely.

"But we are stretching an impenetrable fabric of protection above Normandy."

At sea, fishermen and pleasure craft have been banned from the Seine Bay that stretches along the beaches code named Utah, Omaha, Gold, Juno and Sword on June 6, 1944.

A French carrier, Charles de Gaulle, and an American carrier, George Washington, will be patrolling the bay, which will also be swept for mines.

On land, more than 9,000 French troops are arriving this week, supplementing the 6,300 gendarmes and 2,300 police officers already on duty.

Arromanches' 534 residents have been told that they must either stay indoors throughout next Sunday or leave the area.

Daily Telegraph

Make's "The Day of the Jackyl" seem like child's play.

[Frisbee 0]

Brought shitloads of French freedom too.

What's with this whole 'they owed us, they should have helped us with this war on terror' attitude?

The French have no obligation to do something against their will because they somehow owe a debt to the US.

By that logic, the US was repaying France a favour (the whole help against the UK thingie back then) and then they would've been even after WW2.

It's childish to make such crude jokes about the French out of spite. Of course the reverse is america bashing and absolutely unsporting.

At least european nations take it all in good sport and retaliate with jokes of their own.

(ask Ran for some belgian jokes if you want )

But this is just bashing the French because they wouldn't help you on your war on terror, boohoo.

Joking about the French cowards doesn't do the Resistance of old, or the modern French soldiers posted all over the world any justice.

The whole world is taking the piss on the current US with all kinds of jokes, it's unfair to just single out France imho.

[theavonlady 2]

Brought shitloads of French freedom too.

What's with this whole 'they owed us, they should have helped us with this war on terror' attitude?

The French have no obligation to do something against their will because they somehow owe a debt to the US.

That might be very true but FSPilot didn't mention that and didn't refer to that issue, at least not here.

Maybe you meant to quote someone else's earlier post?

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]The second was when the US was a participant in two wars that brought shitloads of nasty destruction to France.

Flame bait much?

WW1: British and French f*cked up France way more than the Americans did. Yes we were a "participant", as was Germany (the aggressor), Britian, France, Canada, Italy, etc etc.

WW2: Again. The British and Germans had quite a hand in the destruction as well...

Quote[/b] ]The first was being allies with the French in the war of independence, thus US independence is quite possibly reliant on the French as they helped fight off us Brits, along with indigenous people.

Reliant only in the sense of cutting off the British retreat at Yorktown. The French hemmed and hawed with allying themselves with us until A) It seemed British resolve was waivering and B) They would be politically "safe".

The US had a lot more volunteers before the French came around, including Polish, Italian, and independant French.

Any chance to screw the British and people come a runnin'...

[Akira 0]

Brought shitloads of French freedom too.

What's with this whole 'they owed us, they should have helped us with this war on terror' attitude?

Whats with the whole jumping to conclusions attitude?

FSPilot made no mention of that. He was refering to Jinef's "participant in two wars taht brought great destruction to France" line (because the British ain't never done that... )

Holy crap!! FSPilot is back!

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/03/tenet.resigns/index.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- CIA Director George Tenet has resigned, citing personal reasons, President Bush said Thursday.

Tenet's resignation takes effect in mid-July, after which Deputy Director John McLaughlin will become the agency's acting chief, Bush told reporters at the White House.

Bush said that Tenet informed him of his decision Wednesday night.

Bush said Tenet had done "a superb job for the American people."

"He has been a strong and able leader at the agency," Bush said.

"He has been a strong leader in the war on terror and I will miss him."

Quote[/b] ]Bush said Tenet had done "a superb job for the American people."

ROFLMAO!

It was just months ago when the Nigerian Uranium fiasco was causing Whitehouse to criticized CIA.

Guess Tenet decided to jump the boat before it sinks.

[Placebo 28]

This thread is about Iraq, not about anything else.

If the French jokes were instead about America I'd be getting bombarded with complaints about America bashing (a point Frisbee wisely made), so cut it out or be dealt with for flaming/flame baiting.

[Frisbee 0]

Jinef's "participant in two wars taht brought great destruction to France" line (because the British ain't never done that...   )

Yeah.. I know, quoted Fspilot with little relevance actually.  

It was more of a late reaction to the posting of those French jokes, I just don't like how France is singled out as the target of opportunity. (Avon is probably right saying I quoted the wrong person)

A lot of other nations opposed it, a lot of other nations make jokes about the current US administration, but France is about the only country that's seemingly this hated.

What about Belgium, we opposed it too, are we of that little importance?

Apologies FSpilot, now I unrightfully singled you out for something you most likely don't agree with yourself. Sorry  

[theavonlady 2]

If the French jokes were instead about America I'd be getting bombarded with complaints about America bashing (a point Frisbee wisely made), so cut it out or be dealt with for flaming/flame baiting.

As a US citizen, I'll even the score.

[FSPilot 0]

Brought shitloads of French freedom too.

What's with this whole 'they owed us, they should have helped us with this war on terror' attitude?

The French have no obligation to do something against their will because they somehow owe a debt to the US.

I didn't say a thing about France "owing" us, or anything about the war on terror, or the war in Iraq. Come to think of it, my post was fairly off-topic.

[Jinef 2]

Hehe, I helped to ressurect FSPilot, a true classic of the offtopic thread.

My work here is done.

Btw, I word my posts carefully, I never implied Britain wasn't involved in destruction of the French homeland, heh if you go to Normandy now the British built Mulberry Harbour is still poluting the beaches.

My stance was that in no major events has the US any reason to have an anti franco position.

So if you do bash the French you are clearly open to some US bashing, I am oh so happy to oblige.

Oh, I think that the US military should be under British control now offensive action has ended. I'm sure it would end in a much more stable Iraq.

[FSPilot 0]

So if you do bash the French you are clearly open to some US bashing, I am oh so happy to oblige.

Well, you started it.