The Iraq thread 3

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

*wipes dust off the nuke button*

Its been a while since I've used this

[MLF 0]

sorry i was postin while ronin was posting his and after i finished posting i closed the window.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

can anyone pm me whent the flaming is over? I think I will be back online in about 3 weeks from now, so I guess this should be early enough!

Ralphy (ouch I am not gonna earn many sympathy points for what I going to say). Close this goddamn thread. Open a new one so we can start again with less emotions involved.

[DracoPaladore 0]

In light of other discussion, and although it's quite old news, I'd just like to say that the new proposed Iraq flag is a masterpiece. Although it's simple, it does show the image peace, hope, and prosperity in the new Iraq. Whoever came up with it is a genius.

[im]http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/WORLD/meast/04/27/iraq.flag.ap/story.iraq.flag.jpg[/img]

And compare it to the old one:

[im]http://www.1uptravel.com/flag/images/i/iq-v.gif[/img]

This one shows an ugly past. Totally crap choice of colours. And yes, I am dissing a century of arab theme colours. Just look it...blehh...red, black, and green...ain't particularly the prettiest of kind, is it.

Just my Å0.02. I'm waiting for t-shirts with the new flag on.

I don't know...the new one isn't really official but I find it just lacking. Not only that, I heard the people are not exactly happy about the new flag either. And I don't really see how it represents peace or prosperity either than the white and blue colours.

The old one might be find, if they only take the lettering out. That is, if isn't something religious. I know Saddam put that writing on the flag, but I forget what it says now.

Overall, I don't really like the flag. It's like Nunavuts, its just blagh.

Remove image tags when quoting pictures please.

[4-Eyes 0]

I don't know...the new one isn't really official but I find it just lacking. Not only that, I heard the people are not exactly happy about the new flag either. And I don't really see how it represents peace or prosperity either than the white and blue colours.

The old one might be find, if they only take the lettering out. That is, if isn't something religious. I know Saddam put that writing on the flag, but I forget what it says now.

That's right, why change a flag that's been embeded into the hearts of Iraqis? Someone is really trying to piss them off by doing that.

And the writing is religious. It's Allahu Akbar. Allah is great or something like that.

[EiZei 0]

Using israeli colors (sans yellow) is a great way to get some conspiracy theories started..

[Balschoiw 0]

Shi'ites join Sunnis in fighting US troops

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD - Young Shi'ites are lining up to fight - not for firebrand Shi'ite cleric Moqtada Al-Sadr, but for Sunnis in Fallujah.

Mr Hussein Subhi, a polite, softspoken 22-year-old from Baghdad's mainly Shi'ite slum of Hurriya, recently drove to Fallujah with a convoy of cars and trucks delivering humanitarian aid.

But his real motivation, he said, was to join the people in Fallujah in fighting American forces.

'They were counting on a Sunni-Shi'ite split in Iraq, but we are one hand,' he said.

The attack on Fallujah has forged a new unity between Shi'ites and Sunnis, based on Arab nationalism and Muslim religious identity.

'The contacts between Moqtada Al-Sadr and the Fallujah resistance are not as significant as the sympathy between the Shi'ites and the people of Fallujah,' said Sheikh Adnan Al-Janabi of the powerful Janabi tribe, which like many Iraqi tribes contains both Shi'ites and Sunnis.

'And if it moves beyond sympathy...they will probably create a real organisation made up of the Shi'ites of Najaf and the Sunnis,' he told The Straits Times.

The American attack on Fallujah has tapped into widespread frustration in once-friendly Shi'ite neighbourhoods, where people blame the American-led occupation government for failing to bring back electricity, clean water and jobs.

'Bremer, at the beginning, was a brother,' said Mr Abu Ali, an unemployed market porter from the Shi'ite slum of Sadr City, referring to Mr Paul Bremer, the US administrator in Iraq. He once had hopes of working in Iraq's new, Shi'ite-friendly government.

'But now he is worse than Saddam. Saddam said that we are a mob. And Bremer said the same thing about us - he said we are criminals.'

Mr Ali was referring to the US authorities' April 5 announcement of an arrest warrant against Sadr, whose Mehdi Army has been battling coalition forces since the US Army shut down his newspaper on March 28.

Mr Ali, like many moderate Shi'ites, is not a follower of Sadr. But he supports Sadr's opposition to US forces.

In Shi'ite slums, Fallujah is the rallying cry.

The US military has maintained that all Iraqis killed in Fallujah, now estimated at 700, are 'insurgents'.

But Iraqis scoff at that in Baghdad, where Arab satellite channels like Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya have been beaming footage of dead and injured women and children since the conflict began.

'The Americans say they are fighting Al-Qaeda in Fallujah, but it is a lie,' said Mr Jabar Nadaf, Mr Subhi's neighbour.

'They are fighting all the Iraqi people.'

Now that Fallujah's refugees have begun pouring into Baghdad bringing tales of carnage, Iraqis are even less likely to think of the Fallujans as insurgents.

'I saw it with my own eyes: they shelled all of Fallujah,' said Mr Subhi.

Hurriya, where Mr Subhi lives, is a Shi'ite slum with a sizeable Sunni minority. Sewage still floods many streets, a testament to both Saddam-era neglect and the failures of the American-led reconstruction effort.

This neighbourhood sent a convoy of 22 young men to Fallujah last Friday, driving six trucks and four cars full of food, water and medicine.

Mr Subhi and the others went to the mujahideen to join the fight.

'They said we were their guests, and we had already done so much for them,' said Mr Subhi.

'They told us they had enough fighters to achieve victory.'

This is the result of peacekeeping efforts in Iraq. Obviously no good results so far.

Another thing. I am tired of the accusations made by a few here over and over again.

I took my position in bold letters over and over again the last pages. Why is this ignored ?

Why do people seem to know what I think or what my motivations are ?

I can´t tell. I only know that this behaviour is disgusting and I know that Moderators should not take part in this like Ralph does. I guess it´s no good when an active Moderator joins the mob to see some heads rolling.

I will continue to post in this thread as I always did. I will post the news from Iraq wether you like it or not.

The developement in Iraq does affect all of us, not only the US or UK citizens. If you think that failures made by the coalition in Iraq are not existant or not to be discussed it´s a pretty narrow minded sight of reality.

But by calling all this bashing and flaming you try to silence us.

That´s just not ok and I hope there are mods who actually read a few pages back and see where the flaming is coming from and draw their conclusions. I got the impression that some want this topic to be locked only to silence us. It won´t work that way. I hope the moderators see that the same way and we can finally get back on the issue at hand and discuss the event in Iraq like we did for over 1 year already.

[Scorpio 0]

I don't know...the new one isn't really official but I find it just lacking. Not only that, I heard the people are not exactly happy about the new flag either. And I don't really see how it represents peace or prosperity either than the white and blue colours.

The old one might be find, if they only take the lettering out. That is, if isn't something religious. I know Saddam put that writing on the flag, but I forget what it says now.

That's right, why change a flag that's been embeded into the hearts of Iraqis? Someone is really trying to piss them off by doing that.

And the writing is religious. It's Allahu Akbar. Allah is great or something like that.

It was actually designed by an Iraqi artist.

The wording 'Allahu Akbar' meaning 'God is Great' was slapped on by Saddam to make people think he was religious. Although it is a very good thing, it's not approved by Iraqis because of Saddam and they'd much prefer to have the stars instead of the lettering.

Anyway, can't the two of the flags be used in conjunction side by side?

I just think that the colours are much more peaceful on the new one than the old one...the old one has red - blood, war, fire, ect., black - darkness, blind,; and green...uhh...irish clover leaves.

The red, black, green, and white colour scheme are on most arab countries' flags. I'd just like to see something new and let Iraq cut away from the arab states for once.

Maybe the new flag can be used for the government and the old one for the country flag itself? Just a thought...

[denoir 0]

New flag sucks. I liked the old one much better. They should have just made superficial changes to the old one and it would have been fine.

Anyway, on a more fun note : Love this picture:

General Jasim Muhammed Salih takes over control

Apparently he's from Falluja and was very enthusiastically recieved by the Iraqis there.

[NavyEEL 0]

New flag sucks. I liked the old one much better. They should have just made superficial changes to the old one and it would have been fine.

Anyway, on a more fun note : Love this picture:

[im]http://denoir.ma.cx/ofp/iraq/general.jpg[/img]

General Jasim Muhammed Salih takes over control

Apparently he's from Falluja and was very enthusiastically recieved by the Iraqis there.

Love the maroon beret... he must be from an airborne unit!  

Remove image tags when quoting pictures please.

[denoir 0]

Here's a very strange story.

Italy demos 'win hostage safety' [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]Three Italian hostages in Iraq have been saved from harm by street protests in Rome, a militant group has told al-Jazeera TV.

Earlier this week, a group calling itself the Green Brigade threatened to kill the men within five days unless Italians staged demonstrations.

The Arabic TV channel quoted a statement saying that Thursday's protests had satisfied the demand.

A fourth Italian was murdered soon after the group was seized.  There was no immediate confirmation of the authenticity of Saturday's statement.

"They are telling the Italian people that they appreciate how the Italian people went onto the streets and now they are not going to harm the hostages," a spokesman for the Qatar-based channel told Reuters news agency.

Prisoner demand

Al-Jazeera said the statement also called on the Italian government to seek the release of "political prisoners" held in prison in Kurdish areas of Iraq. References to the statement were later dropped from al-Jazeera bulletins.

The first statement, threatening the hostages with death, was sent to al-Arabiya television station.

The three men, Salvatore Stefio, Umberto Cupertino and Maurizio Agliana were captured on 12 April outside Baghdad, where they were working as security guards for a private US firm.

Their colleague Fabrizio Quattrocchi, 36, was shot on 14 April, and his murder filmed.

[DracoPaladore 0]

I don't know...the new one isn't really official but I find it just lacking. Not only that, I heard the people are not exactly happy about the new flag either. And I don't really see how it represents peace or prosperity either than the white and blue colours.

The old one might be find, if they only take the lettering out. That is, if isn't something religious. I know Saddam put that writing on the flag, but I forget what it says now.

That's right, why change a flag that's been embeded into the hearts of Iraqis? Someone is really trying to piss them off by doing that.

And the writing is religious. It's Allahu Akbar. Allah is great or something like that.

It was actually designed by an Iraqi artist.

The wording 'Allahu Akbar' meaning 'God is Great' was slapped on by Saddam to make people think he was religious. Although it is a very good thing, it's not approved by Iraqis because of Saddam and they'd much prefer to have the stars instead of the lettering.

Anyway, can't the two of the flags be used in conjunction side by side?

I just think that the colours are much more peaceful on the new one than the old one...the old one has red - blood, war, fire, ect., black - darkness, blind,; and green...uhh...irish clover leaves.

The red, black, green, and white colour scheme are on most arab countries' flags. I'd just like to see something new and let Iraq cut away from the arab states for once.

Maybe the new flag can be used for the government and the old one for the country flag itself? Just a thought...

Anti-Irish! Kill him!

Ahh..nevermind.

I've been watching the news and the Iraqi's don't like the new flag. Some think it shows signs of a new Israel, others just don't like it. As well, it dosn't have the traditional bars.

The thing is, I don't really think the flag is official yet.

[ozanzac 0]

Is everyone mashed or is it just me? (Lol in a very simply put way!)

Anyways/who.

New flag = queer eye for yet again the queer guy.

Old flag = normal guy for the the lady.

Someone said that it (the new flag) looked too israeli. I say it's too neutral ( I dot E dot = good thing)

For every correct word in this post. I pressed backspace at least four times. Happy / merry saturday night/ sunday morning everyone..........

The important words are happy and everyone which excludes no-one.

[Scorpio 0]

I can't understand your post, ozanzac.

Either somebody's been drinking a wee bit too much, or...its something else.

[ozanzac 0]

I can't understand your post, ozanzac.

That makes at least one and a half of us (Because I'm only half with it)

Quote[/b] ]Either somebody's been drinking a wee bit too much, or...its something else.

Wee is an understatement!

On-topic: (according to CBS news, 20,000 troops, 50 something tanks and thousands of armored humvees have (jim) beem requested to reinforce coaltion troops. The first two requests have been fufiled. The latter has not. Apparently the americans are going for a more freindly 'street patrol approach'.......If only they did that from the beginning.

[SpongeBob 0]

I dont see how that new Iraq flag looks like an Isreali flag. The bottom looks alot like a part of the Swedish flag

[Schoeler 0]

This is the result of peacekeeping efforts in Iraq. Obviously no good results so far.

Another thing. I am tired of the accusations made by a few here over and over again.

I took my position in bold letters over and over again the last pages. Why is this ignored ?

Why do people seem to know what I think or what my motivations are ?

I can´t tell. I only know that this behaviour is disgusting and I know that Moderators should not take part in this like Ralph does. I guess it´s no good when an active Moderator joins the mob to see some heads rolling.

I will continue to post in this thread as I always did. I will post the news from Iraq wether you like it or not.

The developement in Iraq does affect all of us, not only the US or UK citizens. If you think that failures made by the coalition in Iraq are not existant or not to be discussed it´s a pretty narrow minded sight of reality.

But by calling all this bashing and flaming you try to silence us.

That´s just not ok and I hope there are mods who actually read a few pages back and see where the flaming is coming from and draw their conclusions. I got the impression that some want this topic to be locked only to silence us. It won´t work that way. I hope the moderators see that the same way and we can finally get back on the issue at hand and discuss the event in Iraq like we did for over 1 year already.

Bals,

Why don't we bury the hatchet and shake hands?  I am not accusing you of this personally, but it seems to me, and I suspect a lot of the Americans here, that the non-American anti-war types gleefully post any news they can find about American mistakes, failures or defeats.  Its almost as if they enjoy the fact that things are not going well so that they can repeatedly say "I told you so" and rub our noses in it.  Considering that to a man, almost all of the Americans here (Especially myself, Ralph, Tex and others) are opposed to the war, I don't see a great need for that kind of treatment from our supposed foreign "friends".  It only breeds anger, resentment and the desire to stand our ground whether or not we are right or wrong.  One thing you may not understand about Americans is that we are very proud and we don't shy away from a fight.  Once you get our dander up, its hard to get us to stand down.

I completely agree with your sentiments about this war.  It was unecessary and reforming Iraq probably could have been achieved in a more peaceful manner.  But the fact is that we are in it now and we are committed to seeing the whole thing through.  We owe that much to the Iraqis.  Americans are now fervently hoping our Administration can get its shit together, fix the problem and bring our troops home.  So when we see setbacks, increasing violence and the prospect for failure, it is deeply troubling to us both for the sake of our troops and especially for that of the Iraqi people.  Just because we want to see the war go well, does not mean we support the reason for going to war.  I take extreme umbrage whenever I see a post in this topic that celebrates our problems in Iraq.  I think people who get a kick out of pointing our problems out to us, when we are already well aware of them need to get some psychological help.  It's really just sick.  Again, I'm not accusing you of this, but it does seem to be present in the general tone of some of the more recent posts on the board.  There comes a point where anyone who really cares about this issue will just get sick of that kind of exploitation and react badly to it.  That is what happened with me.

I am not trying to ignore the war, its impact on everybody, or to censor your views.  I am trying to point out to you and especially to some others that you might consider taking more time and care in posting, especially when regarding the sensitivity the Americans and God forbid, any poor Iraqis who might venture here have towards this subject.  People are still dying, more probably will and we don't want to see things going badly.  It is very troublesome to us already and people who gloat over our troubles are likely to get the verbally equivalent response of an enraged punch in the nose.  It may not be the right reaction to such pettiness, but it is the natural human reaction.  When people become that angry, they interpret things differently.  I was angry enough to think you may have been behaving as badly as I suspected others were, which is why I came at you swinging.  I'm a fair guy and now that I've had time to cool off, I can re-evaluate the things you've said and I admit, I believe that you aren't anti-American, just anti-War.  Since we share the same feelings on the subject, it is strange that we have been fighting so intensely.  Please, just take the time to make your news updates just that, updates and not as if they are a way of chastizing the Americans here.

[bn880 5]

Schoeler, I have not read your entire posts, but basically I think you are complaining that people pick out the failures of the US or their policy, or thier military and post them. Well, they have a right to do that, and I do as well. People who are against US policy are going to talk about they were right about... which is logical isn't it. Especially since others talk abotu the other side like billybob and whonot.

Since I was opposed to the war, specifically based on the blatant disregard for any logic to have one, I am happy to see Bush and co. not get what they wanted. Very happy about that. Not happy to see some marines die etc. but just the part that makes an illegal invasion hard to swallow. You need to disconnect political policy, yourself (civilians), and the soldiers.

[Schoeler 0]

I don't want to get into it again, but complaining about people who point out how things are going was not what I did. I am just saying that people who obviously get pleasure from pointing out American failures need to get therapy and are also angering the Americans.

I don't need to disconnect how I feel about Americans from how I feel about our current foreign policy because our current policy is getting my fellow Americans killed. I don't think a disconnect would be appropriate or possible for me so long as people continue dying and I don't get any joy from seeing this nation or its policies fail simply because it affords me the opportunity to point out how right I was from the beginning. i think the larger issues of war, death, prosperity for the Iraqi people outweigh personal gratification and ego stroking and I refuse to partcipate in or coutnenance anyone who uses this as an opportunity to stroke their ego.

I don't need to be reminded that this war was a mistake by certain people here over and over and over again, especially when that reminder comes in a pernicious form. The nightly news and the images of bodies both American and Iraqi are reminder enough. While I feel that reasoned and informed debate on this subject should be welcomed and is helpful, I think that gloating and America bashing are petty and juvenile forms of behavior that have no place in this forum. That isn't censorship, it is simple propriety and decorum. I'm not trying to silence you, all I'm saying is please show a little sensitivity in your criticism.

[bn880 5]

What can you do, people feel very strongly when they see injustice go on, every day more people are hurt/killed, it's a BIG thing as you know.

As for disconnect, I mean, if you opposed the war then you should not be very offended when US policy is criticized, and when their military campaign might fail here or there or all together, it is as a result of a bad policy that people "celebrate that". I don't think anyone here is happy to see 21 year old soldiers die just like that, or to call every American an idiot etc. So, cryticism is aimed usually at the policy or the result there of...

I'm sure it doesn't feel good, it should not, but at the same time you should let it go IMO, because people will still point out failures whether you can handle it or not.

[denoir 0]

The problem Schoeler is that if you choose to personally react to what is said about your country, then you have to as well personally take the responsibility for the actions of your country. You can't very well have it both ways.

Considering what your country did and the way it did it you should not be surprised that there are negative feelings towards it. This is nothing compared to the vile bashing that certain European countries that opposed the war were exposed to.

85% or so of the Americans supported this war. In a democracy where the power comes from the people, do you not think that the people are responsible for how they use that power? Sure it sucks for the 15% that were against the war, but again the principle of democracy comes in again - majority rule.

And third: Do you understand that for some things that there can't be a happy ending? That there are only bad and bad solutions? You say that people complain no matter what American soldiers do. Have you not considered the possibility that there are very few good things that they can do or are doing?

It's a shitty and complicated situation. But you ( "you" as in your country) only have yourself to blame. You were warned not to invade Iraq. People told you that exactly the things we are seeing now would be happening. Yet you invaded. And now you're in dire straits. Where do you get the nerve to complain about people criticising what you do? Where on earth did you get the idea that those that opposed the war and that you ridiculed would be sympathetic to your problems?

[Schoeler 0]

The problem Schoeler is that if you choose to personally react to what is said about your country, then you have to as well personally take the responsibility for the actions of your country. You can't very well have it both ways.

Considering what your country did and the way it did it you should not be surprised that there are negative feelings towards it. This is nothing compared to the vile bashing that certain European countries that opposed the war were exposed to.

85% or so of the Americans supported this war. In a democracy where the power comes from the people, do you not think that the people are responsible for how they use that power? Sure it sucks for the 15% that were against the war, but again the principle of democracy comes in again - majority rule.

And third: Do you understand that for some things that there can't be a happy ending? That there are only bad and bad solutions? You say that people complain no matter what American soldiers do. Have you not considered the possibility that there are very few good things that they can do or are doing?

It's a shitty and complicated situation. But you ( "you" as in your country) only have yourself to blame. You were warned not to invade Iraq. People told you that exactly the things we are seeing now would be happening. Yet you invaded. And now you're in dire straits. Where do you get the nerve to complain about people criticising what you do? Where on earth did you get the idea that those that opposed the war and that you ridiculed would be sympathetic to your problems?

Again, I'm not complaining about the criticism. I am pointing out the ugliness of certain people who seem to get a sense of satisfaction and fulfillment over the failure so far to stabilize Iraq. That is twisted. People who are happy to see two countries go to shit so they can gloat, point their fingers and say "See, I told you so!" are jackasses. I get the feeling that that sentiment is behind a lot of the criticism on this board. Perhaps that is just me, but a careful search throguh this thread would easily expose what I am talking about and I think most of you know that. I'm not going to pretend it hasn't happened.

[denoir 0]

The problem Schoeler is that if you choose to personally react to what is said about your country, then you have to as well personally take the responsibility for the actions of your country. You can't very well have it both ways.

Considering what your country did and the way it did it you should not be surprised that there are negative feelings towards it. This is nothing compared to the vile bashing that certain European countries that opposed the war were exposed to.

85% or so of the Americans supported this war. In a democracy where the power comes from the people, do you not think that the people are responsible for how they use that power? Sure it sucks for the 15% that were against the war, but again the principle of democracy comes in again - majority rule.

And third: Do you understand that for some things that there can't be a happy ending? That there are only bad and bad solutions? You say that people complain no matter what American soldiers do. Have you not considered the possibility that there are very few good things that they can do or are doing?

It's a shitty and complicated situation. But you ( "you" as in your country) only have yourself to blame. You were warned not to invade Iraq. People told you that exactly the things we are seeing now would be happening. Yet you invaded. And now you're in dire straits. Where do you get the nerve to complain about people criticising what you do? Where on earth did you get the idea that those that opposed the war and that you ridiculed would be sympathetic to your problems?

Again, I'm not complaining about the criticism. I am pointing out the ugliness of certain people who seem to get a sense of satisfaction and fulfillment over the failure so far to stabilize Iraq.  That is twisted.  People who are happy to see two countries go to shit so they can gloat, point their fingers and say "See, I told you so!" are jackasses.  I get the feeling that that sentiment is behind a lot of the criticism on this board.  Perhaps that is just me, but a careful search throguh this thread would easily expose what I am talking about and I think most of you know that.  I'm not going to pretend it hasn't happened.

No, the criticism is because there is an immense amount of things to criticise. The occupation is not going quite as you planned - what did you expect? Understanding? Sympathy?

Are failures more highlighted more than successes. Sure! Are people gloating? Sure! That's the tone, not the content of the criticism.

What did you expect? People warned you and you called them Saddam-loving cowards. There was a very long and nasty campaign of insulting those countries that were against the war. Now you are getting it back.

What, did you expect that people would take any crap from you and then keep an objective and understanding point of view? You had it coming. Simple as that. Those that you so much ridiculed before the war are of course going to take every opportunity to point out to you what a miserable failure it all turned out to be.

If you personally don't take any responsibility for that, then you should also take no note of the criticism. If you intend to defend your country against the criticism, then you also have to take responsibility for its actions.

And these are only the subtle tones of the conversation! Tell me why the hell anybody should give the US forces the benefit of the doubt? How many civilans have died? Nice going there in Fallujah btw Oh, how about those lovely pictures of tortured and humiliated Iraqi prisoners.

Trust me, there is very little need for gloating or 'anti-Americanism'. Your forces seem to do more than enough to warrent criticism far beyond what you have seen here on the forum.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]What, did you expect that people would take any crap from you and then keep an objective and understanding point of view? You had it coming. Simple as that. Those that you so much ridiculed before the war are of course going to take every opportunity to point out to you what a miserable failure it all turned out to be.

Who is this "you".    

Edit:

I see your above post

[MLF 0]

Since I was opposed to the war, specifically based on the blatant disregard for any logic to have one, I am happy to see Bush and co. not get what they wanted. Very happy about that.  Not happy to see some marines die etc. but just the part that makes an illegal invasion hard to swallow.  You need to disconnect political policy, yourself (civilians), and the soldiers.

But Bush not getting what he wanted is not having a stable iraq after invasion, a democracy set up after the invasion, as little as possible cost to both Iraqi and US lives, yea he wanted oil etc etc but they are also what he wanted, so you saying you wanted Bush to fail in turn means the massive loss of both Civilian and US troops lives and the country going down the shitter.