War against terror

[Jinef 2]

7/7 .... I would say it is still impersonal for the large majority of the population and as for the bodies and trauma caused by seeing others die ....

It was said (I am skeptical) that in WW2 there was more concern when people lost their homes than if their friends or relatives were killed .... if that is true we really are a bunch of materialistic wankerz :P

Nukes and Retaliation:

Well the US didn't exactly go and fly several civilian airliners into the mountains of Afghanistan :P

If nuclear weapons were used a lot of people would have been impressed and suprised, it would have taken the US a long long time to get it's shit together and retaliate however without a fully functional command and control network and a monkey for a leader .... it would be difficult.

9/11 in my eyes was waiting to happen. The only thing I found peculiar was the US needed several NATO countries to Donate awacs aircraft to cover the landmass of the US (Which I thought they might have done in the the Cold War).

Look at Hurricane Katrina (yeah it had the power of 100's of nuclear weapons but still most of that is dispersed harmlessly at altitude and over sea). Hurricanes are not exactly new in the south coast, they are almost yearly. Strange when one actually did some damage it took almost a week before anything started to happen. Even then it was mostly military aid ... which is not best suited to civilian problems.

So imagine the clusterfuck when a few nukes would go off. The simulations run for London and other big cities have almost always ended up in large death counts due to ineffective emergency response. Combine this with a US disaster response led by another monkey, lacking money and a military stretched around the world fighting evil people .... t'would be bad ....

I have to go to work now, sorry for rambling. A bit tired.

[Messiah 2]

the problem with a nuclear blast in a city the size of London, in my mind, isnt the ineffective response, its the scale of the damage and radiation.

I'd be suprised if any country is equipped to deal with something like that in this day and age. Every country with a nuclear arsenal knows the consequences of launching against another - retaliation - this is what kept the cold war cold, and has seen any kind of nuclear disaster programme or funding removed since the cold war. Al qaeda have no home base, no where for us to retaliate directly, hence have no concept of this stalemate that exists.

7/7 was a 'when' situation, not an 'if'. I fear the same could be said with the dirty bomb theory. But like i said, i'd be suprised if any country could cope effectivly with the consequences. Britain coped amazingly well with the 7/7 attacks due to the quite disturbing similarities it had with the mock training the government ran a few years ago, simulating an attack similiar to the sarin gas attack on the tokyo subway. A nuclear scenario would be a logistical nightmare to practice, seeing as it would mean closing down the whole of london for a day, not just one street.

[EiZei 0]

Well, my example was more about ethics of "targeting" rather than effects of a nuclear strike..

[Jinef 2]

Closing London down for a day? Try 35 years.

Eizei you have a point, how can you seriously retaliate with a indiscriminate area weapon to what a Non Governmental Organisation did? They are not officially aligned to any country.

Money was generated in the United States of America for the IRA of Northern Ireland (Who over the years have killed far more people than Sep11). Yet the United Kingdom has no ethical or legal right to kill Americans in an effort to remove the funding of the IRA.

Same thing goes for any nation. Is it legally and ethically sound for a cruise missile that kills people in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran or Syria to be blamed on the presence of NGOs? Would it be OK if China decided to launch a cruise missile at a New York night club because they think elements of a Chinese terrorist organisation are in that nightclub?

How legal and ethically correct are these actions of the US and UK?

[Balschoiw 0]

Freedom, love and harmony:

Report: U.S. Is Abusing Captives

Quote[/b] ]NEW YORK — A draft United Nations report on the detainees at Guantanamo Bay concludes that the U.S. treatment of them violates their rights to physical and mental health and, in some cases, constitutes torture.

It also urges the United States to close the military prison in Cuba and bring the captives to trial on U.S. territory, charging that Washington's justification for the continued detention is a distortion of international law.

The report, compiled by five U.N. envoys who interviewed former prisoners, detainees' lawyers and families, and U.S. officials, is the product of an 18-month investigation ordered by the U.N. Commission on Human Rights. The team did not have access to prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.

Nonetheless, its findings — notably a conclusion that the violent force-feeding of hunger strikers, incidents of excessive violence used in transporting prisoners and combinations of interrogation techniques "must be assessed as amounting to torture" — are likely to stoke U.S. and international criticism of the prison.

Nearly 500 people captured abroad since 2002 in Afghanistan and elsewhere and described by the U.S. as "enemy combatants" are being held at Guantanamo Bay.

"We very, very carefully considered all of the arguments posed by the U.S. government," said Manfred Nowak, the U.N. special rapporteur on torture and one of the envoys. "There are no conclusions that are easily drawn. But we concluded that the situation in several areas violates international law and conventions on human rights and torture."

The draft report, reviewed by the Los Angeles Times, has not been officially released. U.N. officials are in the process of incorporating comments and clarifications from the U.S. government.

In November, the Bush administration offered the U.N. team the same tour of the prison given to journalists and members of Congress, but refused the envoys access to prisoners. Because of that, the U.N. group declined the visit.

Nowak said he did not expect major changes to the report's conclusions and recommendations as a result of the U.S. government's response, though there would be amendments on minor issues.

Navy Lt. Cmdr. J.D. Gordon, a spokesman for the Pentagon, said the Defense Department did not comment about U.N. matters.

The report is not legally binding. But human rights and legal advocates hope the U.N.'s conclusions will add weight to similar findings by rights groups and the European Parliament.

"I think the effect of this will be to revive concern about the government's mistreatment of detainees, and to get people to take another look at the legal basis," said Kenneth Roth, the executive director of Human Rights Watch. "There are lots of lingering questions about how do you justify holding these people."

The report focuses on the U.S. government's legal basis for the detentions as described in its formal response to the U.N. inquiry: "The law of war allows the United States — and any other country engaged in combat — to hold enemy combatants without charges or access to counsel for the duration of hostilities. Detention is not an act of punishment, but of security and military necessity. It serves the purpose of preventing combatants from continuing to take up arms against the United States."

But the U.N. team concluded that there had been insufficient due process to determine whether the more than 750 people who had been detained at Guantanamo Bay since January 2002 were "enemy combatants," and determined that the primary purpose of their confinement was for interrogation, not to prevent them from taking up arms. The U.S. has released or transferred more than 260 detainees from Guantanamo Bay.

It also rejected the premise that "the war on terrorism" exempted the U.S. from international conventions on torture and civil and political rights.

The report said some of the treatment of detainees met the definition of torture under the U.N. Convention Against Torture: The acts were committed by government officials, with a clear purpose, inflicting severe pain or suffering against victims in a position of powerlessness.

The findings also concluded that the simultaneous use of several interrogation techniques — prolonged solitary confinement, exposure to extreme temperatures, noise and light; forced shaving and other techniques that exploit religious beliefs or cause intimidation and humiliation — constituted inhumane treatment and, in some cases, reached the threshold of torture.

Nowak said that the U.N. team was "particularly concerned" about the force-feeding of hunger strikers through nasal tubes that detainees said were brutally inserted and removed, causing intense pain, bleeding and vomiting.

"It remains a current phenomenon," Nowak said.

International Red Cross guidelines state: "Doctors should never be party to actual coercive feeding. Such actions can be considered a form of torture and under no circumstances should doctors participate in them on the pretext of saving the hunger striker's life."

One detainee, a Kuwaiti named Fawzi Al Odah, told his lawyer this month that he stopped his five-month hunger strike under threats of physical abuse.

Thomas B. Wilner, a lawyer at Shearman & Sterling in Washington who has represented 12 Kuwaitis held at Guantanamo Bay, said that Odah told him that in December guards began taking away clothes, shoes and blankets from about 85 hunger strikers.

Wilner said Odah described guards mixing laxatives into the liquid formula they gave to about 40 prisoners through the nose tubes, causing them to defecate on themselves.

Wilner said Odah told him that on Jan. 9, an officer read what he said was an order from Guantanamo Bay's commander, Brig. Gen. Jay W. Hood, stating that hunger strikers would be strapped into a restraint chair and force-fed with thick nasal tubes that would be inserted and removed twice a day. After hearing a neighboring prisoner scream in pain and tell him not to go through it, Odah reluctantly ceased his hunger strike, Wilner said.

"I stopped it because they forced me to stop," Wilner quoted Odah as telling him. "They stopped it through torture."

Pentagon officials said the number of hunger strikers had dropped to four.

Officials have been forcefeeding detainees since August, but they started leaving the long nasal tubes in place in September after detainees complained that having them jammed down their noses to their stomachs and removed twice a day caused intense pain, bleeding, vomiting and fainting, Wilner said.

In January, he said, after harsh treatment resumed and hunger strikers were left strapped in the restraint chair in their own excretions, most gave up their protest.

"It is clear that the government used force to end the hunger strike," Wilner said. "It was brutality purposely applied to them to make them stop."

White House spokesman Scott McClellan dismissed Odah's allegations Thursday.

"Well, yes, we know that Al Qaeda is trained in trying to make wild accusations and so forth," McClellan said in response to a question about Odah. "But the president has made it very clear what the policy is, and we expect the policy to be followed. And he's made it very clear that we do not condone torture, and we do not engage in torture."

Wilner said Odah had not been accused of being part of Al Qaeda.

The International Red Cross is the only party allowed by the U.S. government to have access to prisoners and monitor their physical and mental health, but the organization is forbidden from making its findings public.

The five U.N. envoys are independent experts appointed by the U.N. Commission on Human Rights to examine arbitrary detention, torture, the independence of judges and lawyers, freedom of religion, and the right to physical and mental health.

The five had each been following the situation at Guantanamo Bay since it opened in January 2002.

They decided in June 2004 to do a joint report and asked the U.S. government for access to all detention centers.

"This report is not aimed at criticizing," Nowak said. "It is looking at what international human rights law says about Guantanamo. We are hoping that this report will actually strengthen the dialogue."

[Monkey Lib Front 10]

But they couldn't actually find and proper evidence except the way they where flown out and that they where force fed.

[cozza 24]

Just a Question to Non-Aussie. But what did you think when you read or heard about the Bali 2002 bombing ?

The reason I'm asking is becuase I was having a long conversation with a teacher at school about it.

[Nemesis6 0]

You have to eat. If you do not eat, you will die. If you, as a terror suspect, die at the hands of the U.S., America will be condemned by countless Europeans. But wait, that will happen anyway. Lose-lose situation, anyone?

[HotShot 0]

It seems a grey area if they can force feed or not. On the one hand you've got the section from the article were the Red Cross says that Doctors (and i presume this applys to whoever is doing it in Guantanamo) cant force feed, and then this from the World Medical Association:

Quote[/b] ]

Where a prisoner refuses nourishment and is considered by the physician as capable of forming an unimpaired and rational judgment concerning the consequences of such a voluntary refusal of nourishment, he or she shall not be fed artificially. The decision as to the capacity of the prisoner to form such a judgment should be confirmed by at least one other independent physician. The consequences of the refusal of nourishment shall be explained by the physician to the prisoner.

but then the US law says that prisoners can be force fed. Also i cant find anything about force feeding being against the law from the UN or from say the Geneva convention.

However allowed or not, its more the way they are doing it. The article shows what detainees are saying happens if you go on hunger strike.

You could say that they are just making this up, but with the US not letting UN officials speak to them, who knows.

Also theres the Red Cross which although was (and i think still is) banned from reporting their findings to anyone except the US authoritys, has leaked part of the report, and even the North American Red Cross official has spoken out (about the conditions in general - i havnt seen anywhere that the Red Cross has condemmed the force feeding process specifically). I cant see that the Red Cross would have compromised their position like that without serious worries.

Personally, i think they should let the UN officials speak to the detainees. Americas part of the UN, so they should start cooperating with it, not just keep undermining it.

[Ironsight 1]

Quote[/b] ]10 die in Afghan U.S. copter crash

Saturday, May 6, 2006; Posted: 4:48 a.m. EDT (08:48 GMT)

KABUL, Afghanistan (CNN) -- A U.S. helicopter has crashed in Afghanistan, killing all 10 people on board, military coalition officials said.

The CH-47 Chinook aircraft crashed late Friday near Asadabad in eastern Kunar province, the Coalition Press Information Center reported Saturday.

A statement said the crash occurred during combat operations in the southeastern part of the country, but was not a result of enemy action.

The helicopter was conducting operations on a mountain top landing zone when the crash occurred, it said.

"Additional aircraft and crews were also at the landing zone and confirmed that enemy forces did not cause the crash.

Maj. Gen. Benjamin C. Freakley, commander of Combined Joint Task Force - 76, paid tribute to those killed in the incident.

"Our hearts and prayers go out to the families and comrades of the soldiers who were involved in this crash," he said.

"We must honor the courage and dedication of our soldiers by continuing our commitment to bringing peace and stability to the Afghan people."

[Warden 0]

The Un is a toothless wonder nowadays, it can say and condem what it wants, but if it has to do with the US then it counts for F'all. the UN is a great Idea but in practice it has very little power. Unless backed by the US!.

[Messiah 2]

on the force feeding point, from what i recall, although it could be incorrect, once the prisoner looses conciousness through the act of refusing nourishment, then he is unable to continue to refuse nourishment, and it is in his best inerests whilst in this state, through which the doctor must care for his well being, to be force fed.

or perhaps i've got things muddled up. Plus the body is a rather amazing thing. One day without water is bad news, a month without food is survivable (depending on circumstances)

[Nemesis6 0]

Quote[/b] ]Jimmy Carter shills for Hamas

In JimmahWorld, Israel is the obstructionist, by refusing to have “substantive peace talks†with people who openly preach genocidal murder. Punishing the innocent is a crime. (Hat tip: what if?)

One clear reason for the surprising Hamas victory for legislative seats was that the voters were in despair about prospects for peace. With American acquiescence, the Israelis had avoided any substantive peace talks for more than five years, regardless of who had been chosen to represent the Palestinian side as interlocutor. ...

With all their faults, Hamas leaders have continued to honor a temporary cease-fire, or hudna, during the past 18 months, and their spokesman told me that this “can be extended for two, 10 or even 50 years if the Israelis will reciprocate.†Although Hamas leaders have refused to recognize the state of Israel while their territory is being occupied, Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh has expressed approval for peace talks between Abbas and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel. He added that if these negotiations result in an agreement that can be accepted by Palestinians, then the Hamas position regarding Israel would be changed.

Regardless of these intricate and long-term political interrelationships, it is unconscionable for Israel, the United States and others under their influence to continue punishing the innocent and already persecuted people of Palestine.

[Warden 0]

US DoJ releases 9/11 Tape showing the Plane Attack against the Pentagon.  

The Pentagon has released video images of a plane crashing into the military headquarters during the September 11 terror attacks.

The footage showed a huge explosion and thick plumes of smoke rising after the impact, in Washington DC.

The pictures, recorded by a Pentagon security camera, were released in response to a Freedom of Information Act request by Judicial Watch, a public interest group.

Almost 190 people died when American Airlines Flight 77 slammed into the building at 9.38am.

The attack set off fires in a portion of the Pentagon and killed 125 people inside, in addition to those on board the plane.

Minutes before, two other hijacked airlines were flown into the twin towers at the World Trade Centre in New York.

The video had previously been leaked and publicly circulated, but this was the first time the government officially released the imagery.

Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch, said: "We fought hard to obtain this video.

"We felt that it was very important to complete the public record with respect to the terrorist attacks of September 11."

French author Thierry Meyssan had alleged Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon, suggesting a missile caused the damage instead.

Source

[herman01 0]

I watched both of videos and they are very poor in quality. Theres no way these videos will put down conspiracy theorist. With that in mind not much does add up about the Pentagon attack. Where were the wings? Why was the initial hole so small? In regards to NY attacks why did building 3 of the trade center collapse when it was just burning? Nothing like that has ever happened in modern history. Just valid questions. Why was the video held for so long? Wouldnt you think there was alot more security cameras at the Pentagon. But oh well its so much easy not to be labled crazy and just swallow what the goverment and the media give you.

Same people who believe that there was WMD in Iraq.

On a side note why the conservative talking head complaning about Chavez selling weapons to Iran. Reagan gave the countless American military equipment to fund his Iran Contras.

It was held by Department of Defense (DoD) not the Department of Justice

[EiZei 0]

Pentagon would be better off skipping couple of F-22s and giving mythbusters enough money to put this BS to rest.

[Nemesis6 0]

In regards to NY attacks why did building 3 of the trade center collapse when it was just burning?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7501020220921158523&q=911+stupid

Watch it. Seriously, just watch it. The fire-chief of the firestation closest to the twin towers can tell you why. So can any sane and logic person for that matter, but I'd take it from him.

[herman01 0]

Watched it. First off the video is irrelavent becuase the facts and what occured during that day were not wieghed from an Unbiased view. They didnt answer any of things that dont add up. Only made fun of the ecentric conspiracy theorist. The point is there is a lot things that don't add up. Nobody including our goverment has been able to anwser these. Penn and Teller wouldnt throw away their careers anways by adopting anything that would make them look like deniers of what happened on 9/11 then whats already widely excepted as 100% fact. You just dont believe in something to make you feel comfortable.

[Nemesis6 0]

Palestinian Terror Gang Threatens US, Europe

Quote[/b] ] The Aksa Martyrs Brigades, the armed wing of Fatah, on Monday threatened to strike at US and European interests in response to international sanctions on the Palestinian Authority.

The threat, the first of its kind, came as PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas was scheduled to hold talks in Moscow with President Vladimir Putin on the severe financial crisis in the PA territories. Moreover, the threat by Abbas’s Fatah party came as Palestinians marked the 58th anniversary of the nakba, or catastrophe (the secular anniversary of Israel’s independence).

“We won’t remain idle in the face of the siege imposed on the Palestinian people by Israel, the US and other countries,†said a leaflet issued by the Aksa Martyrs Brigades in the Gaza Strip. “We will strike at the economic and civilian interests of these countries, here and abroad.â€

The leaflet added: “Let the entire world know that we won’t succumb in the face of the policy of blackmail, siege and starvation. In the past we did not capitulate in the face of the policy of assassinations, detentions and air raids.â€

The group also urged the heads of Arab and Palestinian banks to resist US and Israeli pressure and to agree to transfer funds from Arab and Islamic countries to the PA.

Another armed group affiliated with Fatah, the Abu Rish Brigades, threatened to launch a new intifada unless the international community agreed to fund the PA. “This will be a merciless intifada that will destroy everything,†said Abu Haroon, a spokesman for the group in the Gaza Strip.

“We will plan and carry out more martyrdom attacks inside the Green Line regardless of the price and effort,†he warned. “Those who are imposing the sanctions on the Palestinians will soon regret their decision.â€

[sputnik monroe 102]

In regards to NY attacks why did building 3 of the trade center collapse when it was just burning?

http://video.google.com/videopl....+stupid

Watch it. Seriously, just watch it. The fire-chief of the firestation closest to the twin towers can tell you why. So can any sane and logic person for that matter, but I'd take it from him.

Do you know where I could download that video? I'd like to show it to some one I know.

By download I mean save to desktop so I can burn it to a CD.

[EiZei 0]

In regards to NY attacks why did building 3 of the trade center collapse when it was just burning?

http://video.google.com/videopl....+stupid

Watch it. Seriously, just watch it. The fire-chief of the firestation closest to the twin towers can tell you why. So can any sane and logic person for that matter, but I'd take it from him.

Do you know where I could download that video? I'd like to show it to some one I know.

 By download I mean save to desktop so I can burn it to a CD.

Click the big download button on the right perhaps?

Still, it requires a proprietary google video player though.

Penn & Teller's bullshit is quite a program, it's guaranteed to piss off any viewer eventually (so far they have lambasted recycling, PETA, "traditional values", drug and prostitution prohibition, new age bullshit, conspiracy theories, religious idiocy, gun control and slavery reparations)

[Nemesis6 0]

Here's the video in WMV format - http://thatsjuststupid.com/video/911.conspiracy.wmv

By the way, any criticism of PETA is justified. PETA are grade-A assholes.

[Messiah 2]

BBC - Link

Quote[/b] ]

Scores dead in Mumbai train bombs

Blast site in Mumbai, India

At least 100 people have been killed by seven near-simultaneous bombs on the train network in the Indian financial capital, Mumbai (Bombay), police say.

The first explosion went off at about 1830 local time (1300 GMT), during the peak of the evening rush hour in the suburbs on the busy Western Railway.

Correspondents spoke of scenes of pandemonium, with people jumping from trains and bodies flung onto tracks.

There have been a number of bomb attacks in Mumbai in recent years.

The city and the capital Delhi have been put on high alert, and Mumbai's entire rail network has been shut down.

Map

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh appealed for calm and described the incidents as a "shocking and cowardly attempt to spread a feeling of hatred".

Pakistani leaders also condemned the blasts as a "despicable act of terrorism".

Police said the co-ordinated blasts took place at Matunga, Khar, Mahim, Jogeshwari, Borivali and Bhayandar, with most on moving trains and two at stations.

A shopkeeper at a market near one explosion said it was so powerful they thought they had been "hit by lightning".

Television images show dazed and blood-splattered commuters being carried by fellow passengers to waiting ambulances, as rescue workers clambered through wreckage to reach victims.

The force of the blasts ripped doors and windows off carriages and scattered luggage and debris.

Clothes, shoes and personal possessions were strewn along the tracks.

MUMBAI BLASTS

Aug 2003: At least 44 people killed in double car bombing

July 2003: Three killed in bus blast

Mar 2003: 11 killed in commuter train

Jan 2003: 30 injured in market attack

Dec 2002: 23 injured at McDonald's outlet

Dec 2002: Two killed in bus blast

Mar 1993: More than 250 killed in serial blasts

A medical student at a hospital in Parel, which has received many of the wounded, told the BBC News website the "floors are filled with bloodstains".

"There were so many [injured people], I couldn't really count," Sunny Jain said.

"There are not enough ambulances and many people are making their own way to the station. They are coming in taxis and by foot."

The city's suburban train system is one of the busiest in the world, carrying more than six million commuters a day.

De-Ja-Vu of London...

[EiZei 0]

More like Madrid.

[Messiah 2]

true... well, they all stink of the same planning, although as with most acts of terrorism in India, Pakistan is quickly on the lips of those asking questions.