War against terror

[theavonlady 2]

Don't mess with me, Walker!

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Hi Walker.

Yeah, I saw that 'The power of Nightmares, the rise of the politics of Fear' series too.

I also saw 'Operation Hollywood', 'Mission Accomplished', 'Unprecedented', 'The world According to Bush' and 'The Jesus Factor.'

"So like the commies the NeoConMen hate individual liberty what you and me call freedom and the NeoConMen prefer colectivism which is another word for social cohesion."

Well, not exactly what Communism entails. I would not say that NeoCons would advocate "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." They are strongly into individual ownership and business.

What they dont want is everyone's politics and morality being 'liberal' - liberty.

They certainly do NOT want everyone having equal social and economic status.

Now, I agree with you that the government in the USSR was not communist; but I do not see how you can then say that the NeoCons are communist just because they are a more radical group inside a larger group.

Their politics, social theories and morality are completely different (and usually opposed to) communism.

Quote[/b] ]They have misused people's religion and patriotism to organise groups of Americans into colectivist mindset to make them more easily mannipulated. They have done it using the classic Straussian text. It is NeoConMan philosophy to reduce the inteligence of religious thought in order to make a vast army of worker proles. I know it sounds far fetched but read their philosphy it is there as plane as the nose on your face.

I disagree with your conclusion, and especially with the implication that they are somehow subverting religion which you are implying is good.

Blind faith is exactly what allows this kind of thing.

'Intelligence of religious thought'! Ha! Theres an oxymoron.

I think the problem is that you are using the word communist as if the government which presided over the USSR were communist. In everything but name, they were not.

[miles teg 1]

I actually agree with the Baron for once. But I think Walker is not using the term in a literal fashion but more as a generic way of referring to people who wish to take away individual freedom from Americans and the rest of the world.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I actually agree with the Baron for once. But I think Walker is not using the term in a literal fashion but more as a generic way of referring to people who wish to take away individual freedom from Americans and the rest of the world.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Then he is using it wrongly, TBH.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Oh, the world according to Barry-

Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX

Quote[/b] ]Then he is using it wrongly, TBH.

Yes strictly speaking, but by your admission so was almost everyone during the cold war. TBH it is your opinion (IMHO) that the usage is 'wrong' seeing as the word has been used wrongly throughout its history by your own admission and has certainly picked up more than one informal derogatory meaning perhaps unmentioned (as yet) in dictionaries. For a devout atheist you certainly like stating opinions as facts.

You admit the word historically denotes a form of totalitarian dictatorship, so if the word is taken to denote, for instance, totalitarian tendancies, which it seems would not be far out of line with walkers position on TBA, then its use makes some sense (as far as walkers posts make sense).

But it still annoys the hell out of me and i have already politely asked for a decrease in hyperbole.

Quote[/b] ]I disagree with your conclusion, and especially with the implication that they are somehow subverting religion which you are implying is good.

Wrong.

(IIX style).

[walker 0]

Hi all

@ IsthatyouJohnWayne, Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX, Miles Teg etc

What different demographic groups would you say look at this thread and the others like it?

Consider

Such threads seem very popular.

We know who contributes.

We are aware that probably 10 times as many lurk as contribute.

Who is it you wish to pursuade?

Considering the demographic you wish to change the mind of in terms of your rhetoric what are the best means of achieving your goal?

Consider

There is more than one method.

The level of awarness of a demographic is dynamic

People more readily understand concepts they already know that are just adjusted slightly

One of the key weapons of the NeoConMen is the Strausian text.

The NeoConMen are an evil totalitarian regime in the making.

They smell like commies

Act like commies

Sound like commies

They come from commie stock

ergo the NeoConMen are commies.

Hence why I shout loudly:

WAKE UP AMERICA! the Reds are in your bed!

Kind Regards Walker

[Acecombat 0]

Umm during all this back and forth going over commies and not commies i have simply forgotten what a 'real commie' looks like if there is one and can be defined in some words.

Anyone mind producing a definition or example of such a person? Other then the regular trading of this word merely used as an insult i have yet to see a 'true' commie.

[orson 0]

@ Walker..........

It looks to me like the natural progression of western government .

   On Utopia , all the inhabitants are well balanced .. being able to make rational decisions themselves and act upon them without the need for guidance other then the morals and ideals that they all share , after all they are all the same species ,  living on the same planet .

               Utopian history

    Way back in the day ... man wasnt that clever , often resorting to panic when unsure of events happening around him , at some point some clever people decided that it would be best to try and all live by the same set of rules and values , to try and explain these events and life in general ..      

    but they faced the problem of how to get people to listen to them .. they decided to use the fact that if responsibility can be passed to a higher level , then acceptance is far easier on a massive scale .

        But with so many differing tribal cultures allready in place the message had to be written in different text , while remaining as true to the original as possible these texts where sent around the world and most were met with a warm welcome .

      As the popularity of these new rules to live by grew , the differing factions began to view there own versions to be the true word , and that the others was merly a fake and untrue , this caused wars  , people died .

        Later when some even more clever people had some time to sit about and think some more, they discovered science and chemistry .

        Eventually science created machines , this created wealth and some people liked this a lot , they liked it so much that they began writing a new text , one which would have a global voice .. no different versions ... just one single goal in mind .... this was the way our fathers back in the day wanted wasnt it? One mind , one goal ?

        So the the new text , written on small peices of paper , different languages but all the same meaning was taken on as the new religion , this caused wars , people died .

Money and power being the new religion , whether its readily accepted yet or not , the truth is that most current conflicts are based around the re-distribution of the worlds wealth and deposits into the hands of a select few .

               These few believe that its all in the best interests of the entire world if they can have the final say about who gets what . At present we are in a position of limited resources globaly and this is a fact that is being acted upon now , before our eyes ... the introduction of tighter restrictions by the US upon its citizens as an act of homeland security is the blueprint that all western countries face  , see the US a hyper accelerated looking glass into the future of all cultures that embrace consumerism and wealth .

 The war on terror is a double edged sword ..

While re-distrubuting deposits on one side and tightening of civil rights on the other ... In the same manner as the crusades of old ... this time the stamp of approval being left as a symbol that the area had been cleansed of heathens being a different alter of worship , were the new text is readily accepted ( some even take plastic )

watch  "the corporation" by  noam chomsky , not all Americans are blind to whats going on .

[walker 0]

Hi Orson

I do not accept the argument that there are limited resources globaly.

In all cases the resource limit is an artificial one created by those who control and seek to control the resource. There are alternate resources in all cases. There are always more efficient ways of using the resources. The whole of human technical advancement is based on this fact.

The primary resource we are talking about is oil. We are fighting about it not because there is a shortage of energy (there never will be a shortage of energy on this planet while the sun shines) but because the vested interests in the market for oil are fighting over who controls oil and makes the most money out of it.

We then have the main problem and the real reason why the vested interest fight over oil and that is as ever power over others. Elites have always sought to enslave people. Whether fuedal lords, dictators, bolshevic entriests or commie NeoConMen.

Democracy is slightly better than the above because it has mechanisms to mitigate the worst exesses of of the exersize of power. There are elections and seperation of the powers of state. Judicial freedom, a non politisized secret service, religion is kept away from state control. A free press etc

In America today all those checks and balances are under threat. People are locked up without rights to be brought before a judge. The intelligence service is being systamaticley ripped apart and brought under the control of one political elite. Religion is being brought under state control. prety soon America will have an official state religion. The media are being fed properganda and many of them are owned and controled by a particular political elite.

I know what happened in Russia. I know how the Bolshevics gained power. I read history. It is the same thing that the NeoConMen are practicing.

The NeoConMen are a bunch of commies.

Hence why I shout loudly:

WAKE UP AMERICA! the Reds are in your bed!

Regards Walker

[orson 0]

Thanks for elaborating upon my simplicity , i agree 100 % .

The last chance humanity had was back in the 60's .. but they blew it and just sat about getting stoned

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Walker, IsthatyouJohnWayne,

Look; the point is very simple.

The government in the former USSR was not communist. (It was a socialist government which claimed to be preparing the ground for communism)

The way the NeoCons act and behave is slightly similar to that government, but not to 'communism' as a form of politics, sociology or ethos.

Therefore it is WRONG to say that the NeoCons are 'commies.'

You could say they are wannabe totalitarian dictators, (which is not anything to do with communism) or just fascists - but they certainly are not 'commies.'

If one person, or even group of people, is using a word incorrectly (IE McCarthy era US citizen style) -that doesnt change the meaning of the word or make their incorrect usage correct.

Walker, really, what you are describing sounds far more like fascism than communism. Try to see the difference between 'pure' Political systems in theory and claimed political systems in practice.

What I mean here is that you should not say democracy is flawed because many countries (particularly in Africa) call themselves 'The democratic such and such' - but don't act like democracies.

The same thing applies. The government of the USSR had no resemblance to communism.

[kerosene 0]

Did the soviet union have a welfare system and free health-care?

I'm pretty sure you won't find many neocons who support that, I suppose you could say there communist in the way Chinas elite is communist (i.e there not.) The thing with so called communist/socialist governemnts is the people running them usually just become the new elite.

There ideal world seems to be one where labour costs and laws are driven down to the absolute minimum for the benefit of a small minority. You combine that with there attitudes to foriegn policy, there views seem to be closer to some kind of economic fascism or colonialist/victorian view point.

A communist could probably be defined as someone who thinks indivduals should work collectivley for the benefit of a larger society or as someone who believed wealth and resources should be redistributed along more equitable lines than the status quo.

Neither of these could be applied to neo-conservatives.

Didnt the bolsheviks take power from an absolute monarchy that treated the Russian people as theough they were property?

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX- The meaning of words in the English has not become static, even after the invention of dictionaries, and commie is used often as a broad insult. The non dictionary usage would be especially pertinent after the apparent collapse of global communism just like people call others to the right of them fascists even when their views are not in fact fascistic, so i believe walker is playing on the traditional fear of communism in the US to tar neoconservatism as something disagreeably left wing in some of their defining characteristics (stressing for instance neoplatonic ideals of the primacy of the state).

Anyway i broadly agree with you that the word is misplaced (but due to your authoritarian style of expression i find myself compelled to continually question the minutia of your statements).

Quote[/b] ]I disagree with your conclusion, and especially with the implication that they are somehow subverting religion which you are implying is good.

Blind faith is exactly what allows this kind of thing.

'Intelligence of religious thought'! Ha! Theres an oxymoron.

I think your loathing of religion has blinded you to possibility that walkers assessment may not be entirely without foundation. Theavonlady has noted in the past that George Bush is not as religious as he is often made out to be, if this is true it seems to smack of instrumentalism on the part of Bush, and if it is false it may be that others in the administration are maximising the political benefits of George's religiousness. Alternatively he might be as religious as he is supposed. But as you will know from having watched The Power of Nightmares, a crucial step in the rise of neoconservatism was their alliance with Americas religious right (born again christians, evangelicals, fundamentalists etc.) . The idea that all religious thought is equally unintelligent strikes me as a peculiarly unintelligent form of atheism. It is possible to use religious language without engaging in demagoguery and it is quite possible to make a judgement as to what level of sophistication and what degree of intelligence TBA employs in their use of religious language IMO.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX- The meaning of words in the English has not become static, even after the invention of dictionaries, and commie is used often as a broad insult.

Well, I think you may be trying too hard to disagree.

Yes, words change over time, but, at the moment, despite what a small proportion of the world population (who think they are a lot larger proportion of the world population) think, that use of 'commie' is incorrect. Maybe you don't like my use of the word incorrect either. For incorrect you could substitute 'misleading,' I suppose, but its not as accurate.

Its 'misleading' to say that the Democratic Republic of the Congo is a fair example of democracy and to use 'democratic' as a disparaging term based on the government there.

Its 'misleading' to say that the USSR was a fair example of communism and to use 'commie' as a disparaging term based on the government there.

Quote[/b] ] believe walker is playing on the traditional fear of communism in the US to tar neoconservatism as something disagreeably left wing in some of their defining characteristics (stressing for instance neoplatonic ideals of the primacy of the state).

Well, so do I, but that doesn't mean it is reasonable or fair to use the term in that way. Just because something is 'the american way' or just traditional in the US in no way makes it 'right.'

Quote[/b] ]Anyway i broadly agree with you that the word is misplaced (but due to your authoritarian style of expression i find myself compelled to continually question the minutia of your statements).

And I never get annoyed at anyone else stating things as if they were facts Most of my posts which you apparently take a special dislike to are in response to supposedly authorative statements - which I feel, given evidence, are not.

Oh - and when I say 'wrong' - I back it up

Quote[/b] ]

I think your loathing of religion has blinded you to possibility that walkers assessment may not be entirely without foundation.

And I think the american (and your own) veneration of religion as something which 'just is' good is blinding you to the very real fact that religion is divisive, bad for humanity and one of the main causes of intolerance, hatred and inhumanity. The NeoCons are not subverting religion, they are just using it. Again an incorrect use of language. Subverting religion would mean changing what it is - and they are not doing that, just using different parts than other religious types.

Quote[/b] ]

Theavonlady has noted in the past that George Bush is not as religious as he is often made out to be, if this is true it seems to smack of instrumentalism on the part of Bush, and if it is false it may be that others in the administration are maximising the political benefits of George's religiousness.

Its not true.

Bush is an extremely religious man. He is great friends with Pat Robertson - the televangelist lunatic. Watch 'The Jesus Factor.'

Quote[/b] ]

Alternatively he might be as religious as he is supposed. But as you will know from having watched The Power of Nightmares, a crucial step in the rise of neoconservatism was their alliance with Americas religious right (born again christians, evangelicals, fundamentalists etc.) .

Yes.... suggesting that he is, indeed, a very religious man and that religion is not being subverted, just expressed 'honestly.'

Quote[/b] ]

The idea that all religious thought is equally unintelligent strikes me as a peculiarly unintelligent form of atheism.

Truth hurts sometimes. Any particular reason WHY you think that, or is it just something you don't like?

Quote[/b] ] It is possible to use religious language without engaging in demagoguery and it is quite possible to make a judgement as to what level of sophistication and what degree of intelligence TBA employs in their use of religious language IMO.

Of course the speeches are carefully tailored to suit the audience, etc. But that doesnt mean that they are not expressing their own religiousness or applying it in day to day affairs. You seem adamant that religion cannot possibly be a bad thing - but refuse to give any reason why. Can it be that you cant think of any?

[denoir 0]

I wouldn't say that Bush is a neoconservative. I think it is more that Bush and the neocons are in a symbiotic relationship. This is however only since the WTC attacks.

Before that, Bush's agenda was largely domestic. He showed no interest whatsoever in foreign policy and said so loudly. Tax cuts what he had on his mind. The neoconservatives found were part of the administration because they still had a good grip on the religious right ( while not really being part of it themselves ). Bush on the other hand had a good pedigree and lots contacts in politics and industry. It was a working union. Now, it is impossible to tell to what degree Bush is actually religious. Personally, I think he is quite sincere about it ( not necessarily a good thing ). But you never know. He talks of 'a culture of life', but at the same time he executed a record number of prisoners. Starting a war and killing thousands of Iraqi civilian can hardly be called a very Christian deed (theoretically speaking of course). So you never know.

Personally however I think he is fairly honest in his faith ( again, not necessarily a good thing ).

After the WTC attacks, the neocons gained strenght rapidly. What Bush has been doing in terms of foreign policy has been scripted entirely by the neoconservatives. There is very little evidence of Bush taking any initiatives himself. All the major decisions, all the planning, the entire "War on Terror" was planned by a very select few people, mostly from the Pentagon, and outside the 'regular' decision making chain. In addition Cheney's office and a bunch of people from the State Department were involved - all by-the-book neoconservatives. Most of them managed do now what they failed with during the Ford and Reagan administrations.

What about Bush? Well, take a look at what he was doing before the attacks. He wasn't a very strong president, didn't have too many political ambitions. Mostly you got the impression that his ambition was to be president and to have a good time. Apart from some fairly vague economic ideas and a religious foundation he didn't have any ideology to speak of. Immideately after the WTC attacks, Bush gave a speech which was by any standard terrible. But that was perfectly normal - the man was obviously shaken. But then almost a day later he gave another speech, at least equally terrible. It was completely aimless, without giving any idea of what America was supposed to do or wanted to do.

Two days later he gave a very strong speech - charged with ideology - neoconservative style. It was apparently at that moment the neoconservatives in the administration stepped in and guided Bush, giving him a clear aim and direction.

The point I'm trying to get to is that once the shit hit the fan and with a weak president in charge, the neocons saw their chance and used it well. Bush had no ideas of his own, no ideology, so they provided one for him. For Bush this worked out quite well too. The neoconservatives made an all-American hero out of him. The great leader protecting the nation and kicking evil-doer butt. Hello re-election.

You got this interisting trinity for whose interests the administration works (and through it America):

(Religious fundamentalists) <---> (Neoconservativism) <----> (Industry)

Bush is the perfect link with lots of industrial, political and religious contacts. He can at the same time fight for the neocon vision of Mid East democracy and help corporations getting a piece of Iraq. And to top it of he has the 'moral' religious front-end.

Oddly enough people don't seem to notice the contradicting goals of the three ideologies.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

. Starting a war and killing thousands of Iraqi civilian can hardly be called a very Christian deed (theoretically speaking of course). So you never know.

Why exactly is it that you think that these are not christian deeds? Historically they were.

According to the bible they are (ok, mainly the old testament) - but remember 'I come not to bring peace, but a sword' and the Jesus characters intolerance and prejudice on occasion.

According to some prominent religious leaders they are (Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwel, etc)

This is more of the same 'oh but religion is always good' BS.

[theavonlady 2]

This is more of the same 'oh but religion is always good' BS.

Your's is more of the same "the Iraqi War is a religious war" BS. It isn't.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

This is more of the same 'oh but religion is always good' BS.

Your's is more of the same "the Iraqi War is a religious war" BS. It isn't.

Its not primarily a religious war, no - and nowhere did I say it was. That doesnt change anything - blind faith is always a bad thing. Religion is a form of mental illenss, IMO.

[theavonlady 2]

But of course............

Whatever.

Back on topic. America's twisted anti-terror allie. Pakistan:

Quote[/b] ]'Pak N-experts close to al-Qaeda'

PTI[ SUNDAY, APRIL 03, 2005 10:47:29 PM ]

NEW DELHI: Pakistani nuclear scientists A Q Khan and Sultan Bashiruddin Mehmood had held meetings with Osama bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders, exchanged letters with militant groups like Lashkar-e-Toiba and attended their gatherings and rallies, a media report said.

"When the CIA searched (Sultan Bashiruddin) Mehmood's UTN (Umma Tameere-Nau) office in Kabul, they found large amounts of data on the construction and maintenance of nuclear weapons from the Kahuta laboratories. It also found letters exchanged between the UTN and Islamist extremist organisations including Lashkar-e-Toiba," a report in Pakistani weekly Friday Times said.

Mehmood, a close confidante of A Q Khan and a former director of Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, was arrested on October 23, 2001, at the headquarters of the UTN which he had set up for "humanitarian work in Afghanistan", it said. Quoting the famed journal Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, the article said Khan and Mehmood and other scientists of his organisation "attended Lashkar-e-Toiba gatherings".

Khan also appeared in the rallies of the LeT, headed by Hafeez Saeed. The militant outfit, which later changed its name to Jamaat al-Dawaa after being banned, "is alleged to have helped in equipping al-Qaeda with 'dirty' bombs," the article said.

Mehmood and Khan were also known to have held meetings with top Qaeda leaders, including Osama bin Laden, the paper said.

It said Mehmood "may have been a genius, but he was crazy in his religious zeal" and had a firm belief that plutonium enrichment in Pakistan "should not be kept secret and should be passed around to Islamic countries to challenge Israel and the West. He also had expert knowledge of the global nuclear black market". After his arrest, Mehmood had denied he had ever met bin Laden. However, after months of questioning "he admitted to having met Osama, Al Zawhiri and other al-Qaeda members repeatedly, including on the day al-Qaeda struck in New York (9/11)".

Lovely.

[Placebo 28]

This isn't the religion thread.

This isn't the war on US government thread.

This isn't the discuss communism thread.

This is the war on terror thread, pretty sure that was mentioned somewhere. It's for discussing the war on terror, events of the war on terror, strategies of the war on terror, not the war on religion.

You can have a couple of days off from this thread so you can reflect on the above.

[theavonlady 2]

Is it safe?

Quote[/b] ]Police made 100 arrests to smash al-Qa'ida network

By Kim Sengupta and Jason Bennetto

14 April 2005

A British-based network of Algerian terrorists with links to al-Qa'ida are suspected of being behind the plot to cause mass panic in the UK with the release of lethal poisons.

The Metropolitan Police's anti-terrorist branch began investigating an Algerian network throughout summer 2002, but at first they thought it was only involved in logistical support, such as illegal fundraising.

The attempt to break the network led to more than 100 arrests, with investigations stretching from Bournemouth to Scotland.

The most active of the Islamist group, and the organisation believed to be at the centre of the ricin plot, is the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC), which had sent thousands of members for training in camps in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Its fighters have been also been involved in Chechnya, Kashmir and the Balkans, as well the nucleus of the urban terror cells in Europe.

The bloody and largely unreported civil war in Algeria, with its horrific massacres of civilians, has resulted in 160,000 deaths. It has also become an exporter of violence, providing one of the largest pools of recruits for al-Qa'ida.

Kamel Bourgass, who was convicted of murdering a police officer and plotting to spread poison in the UK, is a follower of a GSPC faction led by Nabil Sahrawi, also known as Abu Ibrahim Mustafa, and Abu Doha, also known as Amar Makhlulif. Abu Doha, 39, an Algerian cleric, has been in Belmarsh jail in London since he was stopped from boarding a plane to Saudi Arabia in February 2001.

He is awaiting extradition to the US, where the FBI accuses him of involvement in the so-called "millennium plot" to blow up Los Angeles International airport in late December 1999.

The GSPC was created after it split from another Algerian Islamist group, the GIA (Armed Islamic Group) in dispute over civilian killings. The GSPC's main European base is France. Much of the information about the ricin plot came from there, and from an Algerian anti-insurgency unit led by General Ali Maiza.

The GSPC established a group of about 100 supporters in UK. This changed as it started to become more interested in al-Qa'ida's wider international aims.

A police source said: "The tentacles of this network stretch across Europe and across the world. The GSPC changed from being just concerned with Algeria and are now part of the wider al Qaida-inspired ideology."

UPDATE:

Quote[/b] ]Plotter's flat contained ricin ingredients 'for an attack on Jewish centre

By Jason Bennetto, Crime corresponent

14 April 2005

A scruffy one-bedroom flat in a run-down neighbourhood of north London is an unlikely location for a terrorist "poison factory". But when police and government scientists raided 352B High Road, Wood Green, on 5 January 2003, that is precisely what they believed they had uncovered.

The discovery of what police believed was an attempt by a group of Algerian terrorists, trained in al-Qa'ida camps in Afghanistan, to launch a poison campaign in the UK caused wide-spread alarm. The British security services thought the intended target was to be the Jewish community in north London, The Independent understands.

A nationwide alert went out to track down the man responsible for the poisons list - an illegal immigrant called Kamel Bourgass, 31. The hunt for Bourgass was to lead to the death of the detective, Stephen Oake, 40, as he attempted to arrest him at a flat in Manchester.

Following a massive security operation and lengthy series of court cases that cost an estimated Å50m the case finally came to an end yesterday with the conviction of Bourgass for murder and for plotting to spread poison in the UK. But eight other alleged co-conspirators were cleared of the poison charges at the Old Bailey. The defendants' lawyers argue that the failure to bring a successful prosecution against the majority of defendants highlights the complaint that innocent people are becoming victims of the government's terror policies.

It also undermines the justification for the Iraq war. Colin Powell, the former US Secretary of State, used the plot to back his case for the conflict before the UN. Tony Blair also claimed the ricin "find" was evidence of the threat of weapons of mass destruction to Britain.

Anti-terrorist officers believe, however, that the case shows the extent of a suspected Algerian terror network operating in Britain and the ease with which deadly poisons can be made from simple ingredients.

The breakthrough in what was to become the biggest terrorist plot yet to reach court came about at the beginning of January 2003 when MI5 were contacted by the Algerian security services with some shocking information. They had arrested a suspected Algerian terrorist, Mohammed Meguerba, 36, who told them he had been working with al-Qa'ida supporters in Britain and had been helping them produce poisons at a flat in north London.

Meguerba claimed one of the main figures behind the poison plot was a man named "Nadir", which was one of the names used by Kamel Bourgass. Meguerba said that when he last saw "Nadir" in September 2002, the two of them had already succeeded in making "two pots" of ricin - which were not found when police raided the Wood Green flatr.

Bourgass had been living in London since being smuggled in the back of a lorry in January 2000. His asylum application under the name Nadir Habra had been refused but he stayed in the country illegally.

He is believed to have became involved in the GSPC who established a group in the UK which offered moral and logistical support. This changed as the group started to become more interested in al-Qa'ida aims.

When the police raided his flat in Wood Green - just days after the intelligence had been passed onto MI5 by the Algerian authorities - they discovered in a locked bag in Bourgass' bedroom an envelope containing a set of recipes in Arabic in his handwriting. On the front of the envelope was the address of the Finsbury Park mosque with the name of "Nadir", which Bourgass was also known. These recipes were later photocopied on a machine at Finsbury Park Mosque in north London, the court heard.

There were details of five poisons. Scientists at the Porton Down chemical warfare laboratories in Wiltshire later followed the instructions in the recipes. Their experiments produced enough ricin and cyanide to kill hundreds of people.

Following the raid the police launched a nationwide manhunt for Bourgass.

Nine days after the raid in Wood Green officers from Greater Manchester's Special Branch went to a flat, in Crumpsall Lane, Manchester, to arrest a suspect.

To the surprise of the officers when they raided the premises they found not one but three men, including Bourgass. The three suspects were not handcuffed after police entered the flat and the special branch officers, including DC Stephen Oake, were not wearing protective vests.

Some of the officers then noticed a similarity between him and a man they knew as Nadir Habra, whose picture had been circulated following the ricin raid, and phoned the Anti-Terrorist Branch in London.

Bourgass punched Pc Fleming in the groin, rushed to the kitchen next door and grabbed a knife. Before being subdued he killed DC Oake by stabbing him eight times and wounded three other officers in the process.

Bourgass was tried for the attack and in June last year and found guilty of murdering DC Oake, attempting to murder two Special Branch officers. and wounding another officer.

Following that trial, Mr Justice Penry-Davey sentenced him to life and ruled that he had to serve a minimum of 22 years.

The ricin trial, which began in September last year, ended this week.

The jury found Bourgass guilty of conspiracy to commit a public nuisance by using poisons and explosives for which he was given a 17 year sentence. But the jury failed, after four weeks of deliberations.

Four other Algerians - Mouloud Sihali, 29, David Aissa Khalef, 33, Sidali Feddag, 20, and Mustapha Taleb, 35 - were also in the dock in Bourgass's second trial facing the same two charges. All four men were cleared by the jury.

Following the not guilty verdicts, prosecutors drop-ped plans for a third trial involving four other alleged conspirators - three Algerians and a Libyan.

Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke, head of the Anti-Terrorist Branch, said: "[stephen Oake] died protecting the public from a vicious terrorist. It is clear that had Bourgass been allowed to continue his plot undetected, some people would have been made very ill and quite possibly have died.

"It would be hard to underestimate the fear and disruption this plot could have caused across the country.

"The public have been spared from a real and deadly threat."

Gareth Peirce, who acted as solicitor for Sihali, Khalef, and Feddag in the earlier trial - in which they were cleared - added: "There was a great deal that this country was led to believe that in part caused it to go to war on Iraq, erected on the basis of an alleged major conspiracy involving ricin.

What now for the terror laws?

Hours after anti-terrorist police officers broke up an alleged ricin terrorist plot, Tony Blair appeared on television describing the find as a stark illustration of the dangers that were posed by weapons of mass destruction.

The following month, Mr Blair went to the Commons to tell MPs that the alleged conspiracy was "powerful evidence" of a continuing terror threat to the nation. It is a theme to which he will no doubt return nearer the election.

The murder of DC Stephen Oake and the intelligence gathered by British and foreign security services shows there is a serious terror threat that must be properly met. But civil liberty lawyers last night were asking if the Government had got the approach right.

The failure to secure terrorist conspiracy convictions against eight of the nine men after an investigation lasting nearly two years must be regarded as a serious setback for the Government's anti-terror policy.

Gareth Peirce, the solicitor representing the men accused of the risin plot, said it was troubling that although none of them had any association with Kamel Bourgass, the man found guilty of murdering DC Oake, the prosecution was able to weave a "massive conspiracy tapestry".

The acquittals also cast doubt on the reliability of the evidence against the former Belmarsh detainees who were released under strict control orders last month.

The terms of the orders signed by the Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, include fresh allegations that all had "links with North African groups involved in the use of toxic chemicals in the UK". But the only apparent evidence for that link was that the former Belmarsh detainee known as P, a double-amputee Algerian, was arrested in Manchester at the same house where DC Oake was murdered. P is now the subject of a control order.

Ms Peirce said: "The extension of these innocent links, to an agreement of the most serious of criminal conspiracies, depends on assertions by the prosecution rather than evidence against any alleged co-conspirators of relevant criminal activity."

The jury's unanimous rejection of an alleged ricin plot helps explain why the Government is so reluctant to put the former Belmarsh detainees on trial.

The evidence against them is not only weaker than that used to prosecute the alleged ricin plotters but is also largely inadmissible.

Since 11 September 2001, the police have made 702 arrests, mostly of Muslim men, under the Terrorism Act 2000. Only 17 have been convicted of any terrorist offence.

Robert Verkaik

[theavonlady 2]

House keeping:

Quote[/b] ]Saudi Arabia confirms the killing of 15 including al-Qaida leader

Saudi Arabia, Local, 4/11/2005

Saudi Arabia confirmed today officially that its forces killed Saud al-Oteibi who is believed to be the leader of al-Qaida organization in the kingdom, and the Moroccan Abdul Karim al-Majati, who suspected to be the master mind for Madrid explosions, during the clashes in the north west of Riyadh.

A statement by the ministry of the interior said that the results of the clashes which erupted last Sunday and lasted for three days increased to 15 after finding another body on the site.

The statement added that al-Oteibi was invested by the organization as a successor for Abdul Aziz al-Mugarran who was killed by the security forces in June 2004. The reports talked earlier about the killing of al-Oteibi and al-Majati but the Saudi forces did not confirm this officially.

The statement disclosed the names of 10 persons out of 15 killed in the fighting including Adam, the son of al-Majati, while the others carry the Saudi nationality. The statement added that the identity of the other killed persons will be announced "as soon as related measures are completed."

The statement did not mention the killing of the main person wanted by the authorities, Saleh al-Oufi, who is believed to be the leader of al-Qaida organization, that the kingdom announced his killing earlier. It is also not clear whether al-Oufi is among those whose names have not been disclosed yet.

Both al-Oteibi and al-Majati are considered on top of the list of the 25 most wanted by the Saudi authorities.

The Saudi ministry of the interior announced three names out of 6 gunmen arrested after they were injured. The ministry indicated concerning the others that "national interest calls for not to disclosing their identity at the meantime."

[miles teg 1]

Well the Baron likes to trash religion period and I agree Placebo that this isn't the thread to go bashing all religions on. However while I agree with Avon Lady that this war is not a religious war from the American perspective, it most definitely is a religious war from the perspective of Islamic militants who believe very sincerely that they are fighting for their religion and for God. For that reason it is important to discuss the religious ideologies associated with those groups. However while I would agree that Christianity has little to do with the "war on terror", I would argue that America's foreign policy towards the nation of Israel IS MOST DEFINITELY grounded in the Christian faith (to go against Israel is to go against God's chosen people). But that is for another thread unless the topic of Palistinian terrorists is discussed and perhaps why America is doing very little to force Israel to halt settlement expansions. While the current plan of settlement expansions isn't set to occur soon and indeed Sharon is bravely going through with the withdrawl of key settlements, the expansion of certain settlements still may very likely unravel current peace negotiations.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Nemesis6 0]

Quote[/b] ]Terror returns to Gaza?

About 25 Palestinian attacks reported in Gaza Strip last week; figure marks threefold increase from recent weeks

By Hanan Greenberg

GAZA - About 25 Palestinian attacks were reported in the Gaza Strip last week, a figure that marks a 300 percent increase compared to the number of attacks in recent weeks.

IDF officials are concerned over the growing violence in the Strip and warn that the lull in violence could end if the Palestinian Authority fails to take action against terrorist groups.

Pullout Nearing

Army building new Gaza barrier / By Hanan Greenberg

IDF setting up "security strip" (see exclusive video!) near Philadelphi Route on the Gaza-Egypt border, ahead of upcoming pullout. Zone to feature massive concrete wall in bid to prevent arms smuggling

Full Story

“We’re certainly sensing an erosion in the cease-fire, and less preventative action by the Palestinians,†one army official said.

Sunday evening, IDF forces detained two unarmed Palestinian infiltrators who crossed the central Gaza Strip security fence. Since the beginning of the year, 40 Palestinian infiltration attempts were foiled by the army.

“In recent weeks, we had about seven or eight terror incidents and therefore the past week marks a worrisome increase,†another military source told Ynet.

Small groups behind most attacks

The IDF has so far refrained from initiating offensive action in response to the growing violence, in light of understandings reached with the Palestinian Authority.

“The responsibility lies on the shoulders of the Palestinians. The terror incidents must not continue,†an IDF official said. “At times the difference between an incident that ends without casualties and one that may end with casualties is very slim. It’s clear that in such case it would be difficult to ignore (the attacks).â€

Small terror groups not committed to the truce, and particularly the Popular Resistance Committees, are behind most of the latest incidents, the army said.

“They act from the same locations and enjoy the fact nobody stops them,†one army officer said.

[SFWanabe 0]

This is more of the same 'oh but religion is always good' BS.

Your's is more of the same "the Iraqi War is a religious war" BS. It isn't.

Its not primarily a religious war, no - and nowhere did I say it was. That doesnt change anything - blind faith is always a bad thing. Religion is a form of mental illenss, IMO.

Its not a religous period dude. Its a war of a lies,greed of money and oil,and last but not least revenge.