War against terror

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]On reality, US military recruiters seem to switch to very flexible methods of recruiting right now.

Not really but just another slime ball recruiter(s). Not all bad but just that damn minority. Anyway, I wonder how many gang members were recuited in the 90s and now. People who shouldn't be recuits but are recuits isn't a new thing.

[Balschoiw 0]

Yeah but the impression I got is that those recruiters obviously broke law and should be better off in jail while they are recruiting teens.

It´s not the recruits in question, it´s the recruiters who illegally recruit people full knowing what they are doing and they furthermore make it all look easy and legal.

I don´t know about the military recruiting gang members. Doesn´t surprise me though if you look at some of the "highlights" during the last war.

[billybob2002 0]

Yeah but the impression I got is that those recruiters obviously broke law and should be better off in jail while they are recruiting teens.

It´s not the recruits in question, it´s the recruiters who illegally recruit people full knowing what they are doing and they furthermore make it all look easy and legal.

I don´t know about the military recruiting gang members. Doesn´t surprise me though if you look at some of the "highlights" during the last war.

Probably, I don't know. Anyway, you can usually spot a gang member in a picture from Iraq or etc. However, saying that, the military kicks that person out if id. I wonder how they get pass recruiters because they usually have a record or ink (tats).

[miles teg 1]

Thre is NOTHING banning gang members from joining the US armed forces unless they have some serious crimes on their records.  There is quite a bit of flexibility for recruiters when it comes to criminal records.  To be quite honest, the military is NOT a bad place for kids who are caught up in gangs.  The military provides a much better gang where they can still act out all their machismo crap but in a more structured and productive enviornment where they are taught (well most) more discipline and given serious responsibilities.  Most of them grow up real quick once they start approaching the NCO ranks and other leadership positions.  Even a rank of Specialist (E-4) in the Army is a rank with alot of responsibility.  Even more so with Corporals (E-4).  

That is one thing that I appreciated about the Army is that they really pushed me to take responsibility and I learned an enormous amount as an NCO.   So hiring gang members to me is not a big deal unless they are just rotten to the core and refuse to obey any authority.  But those are not the types to join the military anyways.   Now as for drug users... Marijuana usually isn't a big problem unless they are habitual Marijuana smokers, but other forms of drug use (meth, crack, cocaine, heroine, ect...) that tend to normally be habitual represents a VERY big problem.  After the Vietnam War, drugs were a massive problem in the barracks and it took a lot of work to rid the military of the majority of drug usage.

As for recruiters lying....well they always lied.  They lied to me in fact quite a few times.  But now they are really crossing the lines and are being pushed to really lie like hell to get more and more recruits.  However I know alot of anti-war groups have programs to educate low income teenagers about the realities of joining the military.  Also recruiters have been trying to illegally roam at will around college campuses recruiting often wearing uniforms that do NOT mark them as recruiters.  I was with a more left wing friend of mine one time at my campus when were listening in on some guys telling war stories to some young students and telling them how exciting it was to be in combat and the satisfaction they got from killing terrorists.  After we asked them a few questions, they reluctantly admitted that they were recruiters and they had not gotten the proper sponsorship by the ROTC program or any other student organization or department to be there roaming around and recruiting on the university.  So when my friend went to them and told them that he was going to file a report against them with the campus police, they took off.    I'm not even sure if they were real war veterans.   Somehow I doubt it.  Plus most of what they seemed to be doing was trying to pick up girls there anyways.

Overall I think the majority of America's youth are smartening up to the whole War in Iraq deal where even the uneducated miniority groups are being informed enough to know that joining the military to serve in Iraq is really a last resort option if they can't find a civilian job.   Personally, with what I know about the military, I think I would join if I was in a bad socioeconomic situation especially if I had roughly the same chances or greater of dying in neighborhood gang violence as being killed by violence in Iraq.  But not every inner-city urban area is that dangerous unless you go looking for trouble.  

Anyways...all of this I think basically points to the fact that the US military is in serious trouble.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that we are already vastly overstretched in Iraq.  South Korea is strong enough to take care of themselves.  ROK soldiers are some of the best in the world and are highly respected by American soldiers.   They are also very well armed and well trained.

However an invasion of North Korea would be a whole other story.  South Korea could equip itself and its population for nuclear war as currently the North is believed only to have a couple or so nukes that are ready to deploy as weapons.  Not enough to wipe out all of South Korea by any means.  The US military is technically able to operate in a nuclear/NBC enviornment.  It would be difficult and health care costs of veterans would be extremely high, but it is possible...but not right now as we are in Iraq.  It would require a much larger force then what was required for Iraq due to the different terrain and the lessons the North Koreans have learned from the insurgents in Iraq about urban unconventional warfare.

Iran likewise has taken many of the same lessons and has vastly increased their special operations capability and unconventional warfare capability.  They are fully aware that their conventional forces would just be a speed bump to US forces.  However they are technologically more sophisticated then the Iraqi military and have tanks updated with ERA...the generation of ERA is not known but if its similar to Russian KONTAKT-5 ERA, this would be a very serious matter to US M1 tankers and TOW-2 missile gunners.  Kontakt-5 ERA is designed to shatter or deflect SABOT rounds and defeat tandem warheads which is why it makes tanks equipped with such armor much more dangerous.  They aren't impossible to kill and still must depend on their conventional armor to defeat the remnants of the SABOT round and HEAT explosives.  But it gives their tanks a fighting chance to do some dammage by launching rear and flank attacks against US armored forces.

Furthermore, there is no organized popular resistance against Iran these days.  There are a few student movements left, but they are largely non-militant and many leaders have been arrested and jailed (or executed).  Sadly, Bush's "AXIS OF EVIL" speech had the effect of undermining popular resentment against the ruling Ayatollahs of Iran.  Instead it just helped legitimize their power more and consolidate their power more then ever by passing laws to bar dangerous (to them) opposition politicans.  

The bottom line is that we don't have enough troops to both attack AND hold another country's territory in a conflict that would likely develop into an ugly counter-insurgency operation.

The only solution is a draft...and THAT would get VERY VERY UGLY!!! If the Republicans think that anti-war protesters have been a pain in the ass now, they haven't seen nothing yet compared to protests a draft would create.

Even Republicans are not politically suicidal and they're not that stupid. This is why Bush is being so careful with China, North Korea, and Iran now.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Thre is NOTHING banning gang members from joining the US armed forces unless they have some serious crimes on their records.

Tell that to the Marine spokeman who said that the Marines would had kicked out that gang member who killed that cop if they knew he was in a gang.

Quote[/b] ]

Overall I think the majority of America's youth are smartening up to the whole War in Iraq deal where even the uneducated miniority groups are being informed enough to know that joining the military to serve in Iraq is really a last resort option if they can't find a civilian job.   Personally, with what I know about the military, I think I would join if I was in a bad socioeconomic situation especially if I had roughly the same chances or greater of dying in neighborhood gang violence as being killed by violence in Iraq.

Oddly, the Air Force and Navy isn't having recuitment problems and are meeting their goal each time. What can explain this? The Air Force and Navy is over in Iraq (near Iraq on a boat but on the ground at times) and Afghanistan (near Afganistan on a boat but on the ground at times) just like the rest of the military. Is it the perception of Air Force personnel do not see combat or not being in a combat zone that keeps the recuitment up? I guess so (i answer my own question...). I wouldn't say that minorities aren't being recuited because of Iraq. For example, black enlistment in the Army started to go down right after 9/11 from 22.7% (2001) to 19.9% (2002) to 16.4% (2003) to 15.9% (2004).  The Army concluded the fear of death or injury overall has the reason for this drop and other factors. Now, the Army could use a very dangerous tactic of using the casualty figure has a + more than - for certain groups of people.

Source:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin....S35.DTL

Quote[/b] ]Iran likewise has taken many of the same lessons and has vastly increased their special operations capability and unconventional warfare capability.  They are fully aware that their conventional forces would just be a speed bump to US forces.

The US isn't just sucking up air but are learning their mistakes from Iraq and adapting. For example, the urban fighting of Iraq has made the military develop TUSK for the Abrams and the usage of ERA on the bradley. Furthermore, most importantly, the US (hopefully) learned that the civilian population winning over must come first. Basic Mao...

[Sniper_Panther 0]

Yeah but the impression I got is that those recruiters obviously broke law and should be better off in jail while they are recruiting teens.

It´s not the recruits in question, it´s the recruiters who illegally recruit people full knowing what they are doing and they furthermore make it all look easy and legal.

I don´t know about the military recruiting gang members. Doesn´t surprise me though if you look at some of the "highlights" during the last war.

Probably, I don't know. Anyway, you can usually spot a gang member in a picture from Iraq or etc. However, saying that, the military kicks that person out if id. I wonder how they get pass recruiters because they usually have a record or ink (tats).

[im]http://images.ibsys.com/2005/0224/4228102_200X150.jpg[/img]

I can't really see that, is he doing the peace sign?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I can't really see that, is he doing the peace sign?

Blame NBC for the quality of pic. I didn't catch the report but they claim it was an gang sign.

[Placebo 28]

Sniper_Panther remove image tags when quoting please

[miles teg 1]

Billybob, I didn't say they'll let in all gang members. Also the Marines tend to have higher standards. I was mainly refering to the Army. But even the Army I believe has limits on felons. For sure a convicted murderer would not be allowed in and I'm fairly certain they don't allow in people with certain types of felonies on their records. What I'm talking about is just some gangbanger with nothing but perhaps a few misdemeanors on his record.

They may start to even overlook certain felonies for selling drugs but who knows.

As for the Airforce and Navy retaining retention, yeah I think your answer is correct. Overall the majority of jobs in the Airforce and Navy are MUCH safer then those jobs of the Army and Marines. The same for the Coast Guard.

It just depends on the type of job they get. If its a mundane ship based job or some kind of technical airforce job that would likely keep them on a base and not roaming the streets of Baghdad, then yeah its not a high risk choice. But if they want to be a Navy corpsman (Medic), a Navy SEAL, an MP or a USAF pararescue soldier, then yeah those are higher risk.

But most jobs in those braches aren't too risky.

As for Iran vs. the US. Yeah of coarse the US has adapted, but there aren't exactly alot of TUSK M1's over there and only some Bradleys have gotten the ERA updates. Furthermore, I remember reading a while back (it might have been in Janes Defense Weekly) that Iran is buying a lot of RPG-7VR (aka-The Abrams Killer) tandem warhead variants of the RPG-7. This is the type that is reported to have penetrated the side armor of one M1A1. It would also certainly penetrate a Bradley protected by ERA. As far as I know the ERA used by the US military is not as advanced as the Russian Kontakt-5 ERA which is designed to handle tandem warheads unless the US Army has secretly been developing that capability in its ERA.

Iran has also already developed tandem warhead variants for its ATGM equipped forces. For example they make their own tandem warhead equipped, SACLOS equipped variant of the AT-3 Sagger called the Ra'ad-T missile.

So overall I think that the Iranians are also training and equipping themselves for a more sophisticated type of urban warfare. Whatever the case, even pro-American Iranians would likely change their minds real quick once the civilian casualties started to pile up. It also would open up Iran as a new front for Al-Qaeda where currently they are not welcomed as generally they are enemies of the Shi'a.

Most of Al-Qaeda believes that the Shi'a are corrupters of the religion of Islam and that they are not true Muslims. They are in great fear of a vast Shi'a empire stretching from Iran to Iraq, on to Lebanon and parts of Syria...until eventually they capture Saudi Arabia.

However an invasion of Iran would allow Al-Qaeda to penetrate into Iran to lead insurgency groups and gradually spread their brand of radical Sunni Islam in Iran.

At the very least, if they were not successful leading insurgencies in Iran, while Shi'a insurgents are busy fighting Americans, they could use the chaotic situation as a cover for assassinating powerful Shi'a leaders in Iran. It also would take alot of the pressure off of Al-Qaeda in Iraq as many US forces would be diverted to Iran.

All in all, if we invaded anytime in the near future, without a draft, we'd be in a world of trouble. We could do it but it would either mean TREMENDOUS sacrifices on the part of our Active Duty, Reserve, and National Guard forces as far as doubling their rotations to the Middle East, or it would mean a draft.

A draft of coarse would open up an entirely different can of worms.

No matter what we are in serious trouble right now. Iran and North Korea both have us by the balls and they know it.

Once Iran has nukes, they have much greater leverage against us and Israel and it essentially protects them from an invasion unless America decides we're willing to risk losing thousands of soldiers from nuclear weapons and exposing many thousands more to radiation.

The more time passes the greater the chance Iran will develop its own nuclear weapons meanwhile North Korea is likely making nukes as fast as possible and weaponizing them as fast as possible.

So we're in tough situation thanks to good ol' Bush who in all his wisdom decided we had to invade Iraq. God help us if Bush gets any more bright ideas like that.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Balschoiw 0]

Revealed: sex and torture inside the wire

Quote[/b] ]Female interrogators tried to break Muslim detainees at Guantanamo Bay by sexual touching, wearing a miniskirt and thong underwear and in one case smearing a Saudi man's face with fake menstrual blood, according to an insider's written account.

A draft manuscript obtained by The Associated Press is classified as secret pending a Pentagon review for a planned book that details ways the US military used women as part of tougher physical and psychological interrogation tactics to get terror suspects to talk.

It's the most revealing account so far of interrogations at the secretive detention camp, where officials say they have halted some controversial techniques.

"I have really struggled with this because the detainees, their families and much of the world will think this is a religious war based on some of the techniques used, even though it is not the case," the author, former Army Sergeant Erik R Saar, 29, told AP.

Saar didn't provide the manuscript or approach AP, but confirmed the authenticity of nine draft pages AP obtained. He requested his hometown remain private so he wouldn't be harassed. Saar worked as an Arabic translator at the US camp in eastern Cuba from December 2002 to June 2003. At the time, it was under the command of Major General Geoffrey Miller, who had a mandate to get better intelligence from prisoners, including alleged al-Qaeda members caught in Afghanistan.

Saar said he witnessed about 20 interrogations and about three months after his arrival at the remote US base he started noticing "disturbing" practices.

One female civilian contractor used a special outfit that included a miniskirt, thong underwear and a bra during late-night interrogations with prisoners, mostly Muslim men who consider it taboo to have close contact with women who aren't their wives.

Beginning in April 2003, "there hung a short skirt and thong underwear on the hook on the back of the door" of one interrogation team's office, he writes. "Later I learned that this outfit was used for interrogations by one of the female civilian contractors ... on a team which conducted interrogations in the middle of the night on Saudi men who were refusing to talk."

Some Guantanamo prisoners who have been released say they were tormented by "prostitutes".

In another case, Saar describes a female military interrogator questioning an uncooperative 21-year-old Saudi detainee, Hani Hanjour, who allegedly had taken flying lessons in Arizona before the September 11 terror attacks. Suspected September 11 hijacker Hani Hanjour received pilot instruction for three months in 1996 and in December 1997 at a flight school in Scottsdale, Arizona.

"His female interrogator decided that she needed to turn up the heat," Saar writes, saying she repeatedly asked the detainee who had sent him to Arizona, telling him he could 'cooperate' or 'have no hope whatsoever of ever leaving this place or talking to a lawyer'."

The man closed his eyes and began to pray, Saar writes.

The female interrogator wanted to "break him", Saar adds, describing how she removed her uniform top to expose a tight-fitting T-shirt and began taunting the detainee, touching her breasts, rubbing them against the prisoner's back and commenting on his apparent erection.

The detainee looked up and spat in her face, the manuscript recounts.

The interrogator left the room to ask a Muslim linguist how she could break the prisoner's reliance on God. The linguist told her to tell the detainee that she was menstruating, touch him, then make sure to turn off the water in his cell so he couldn't wash.

Strict interpretation of Islamic law forbids physical contact with women other than a man's wife or family, and with any menstruating women, who are considered unclean.

"The concept was to make the detainee feel that after talking to her he was unclean and was unable to go before his God in prayer and gain strength," says the draft, stamped Secret.

The interrogator used ink from a red pen to fool the detainee, Saar writes.

"She then started to place her hands in her pants as she walked behind the detainee," he says. "As she circled around him he could see that she was taking her hand out of her pants. When it became visible the detainee saw what appeared to be red blood on her hand. She said, 'Who sent you to Arizona?' He then glared at her with a piercing look of hatred.

"She then wiped the red ink on his face. He shouted at the top of his lungs, spat at her and lunged forward" - so fiercely that he broke loose from one ankle shackle.

"He began to cry like a baby," the draft says, noting the interrogator left saying: "Have a fun night in your cell without any water to clean yourself."

Sexual tactics used by female interrogators have been criticised by the FBI, which complained in a letter obtained by AP last month that US defence officials hadn't acted on complaints by FBI observers of "highly aggressive" interrogation techniques, including one in which a female interrogator grabbed a detainee's genitals.

About 20 per cent of the guards at Guantanamo are women, said Lieutenant Colonel James Marshall, a spokesman for US Southern Command. He wouldn't say how many of the interrogators were female.

Marshall wouldn't address whether the US military had a specific strategy to use women.

"US forces treat all detainees and conduct all interrogations, wherever they may occur, humanely and consistent with US legal obligations, and in particular with legal obligations prohibiting torture," Marshall said late Wednesday.

At Guantanamo, Saar said, "Interrogators were given a lot of latitude under Miller," the commander who went from the prison in Cuba to overseeing prisons in Iraq, where the Abu Ghraib scandal shocked the world with pictures revealing sexual humiliation of naked prisoners.

Several female troops have been charged in the Abu Ghraib scandal.

Saar said he volunteered to go to Guantanamo because "I really believed in the mission," but then he became disillusioned during his six months at the prison.

After leaving the Army with more than four years service, Saar worked as a contractor briefly for the FBI.

The Department of Defence has censored parts of his draft, mainly blacking out people's names, said Saar, who hired Washington lawyer Mark S Zaid to represent him. Saar needed permission to publish because he signed a disclosure statement before going to Guantanamo.

The book, which Saar titled Inside the Wire, is due out this year with Penguin Press.

Guantanamo has about 545 prisoners from some 40 countries, many held more than three years without charge or access to lawyers and many suspected of links to al-Qaeda or Afghanistan's ousted Taliban regime, which harboured the terrorist network.

Way to go USA !

You can see that such methods are not really helping when you look at the latest news. What will be happening if the people there will read the full truth oneday ? AQ2, AQ3, AQ4 ? It doesn´t really surprise me.

Riots over US Koran 'desecration'

Quote[/b] ]At least three people have been killed and several injured after police opened fire to break up an anti-US protest in eastern Afghanistan, officials say.

Hundreds of students rioted in the city of Jalalabad over reports that the Koran was desecrated at the US prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

American troops have now been deployed on the streets to keep order.

A report in Newsweek magazine said US personnel had flushed a copy of the Islamic holy book "down the toilet".

Buildings belonging to the United Nations are reported to have been attacked and the offices of two international aid groups are said to have been destroyed.

The Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan, Rustam Shah Mohmmand, told the BBC the Pakistani consul's house had also been burned down and two cars torched.

One international aid worker in Jalalabad told the BBC that he could see smoke rising from points across the city.

He said there were groups of people running along the streets, reportedly looking for foreigners and anyone working for non-governmental organisations.

The BBC's Andrew North in Kabul says the violence comes after several months of mounting concern among foreign aid workers in Afghanistan over their security.

Stones thrown

All UN and other foreign aid workers in the city have been told to move to safe areas.

The protesters chanted "Death to America" and smashed car windows and damaged shops.

The Associated Press news agency reports that they threw stones at a group of US military vehicles.

It said US soldiers fired in the air before quickly leaving the area.

"Police opened fire in the air to control the mob, and some people were injured," Jalalabad police chief Abdul Rehman told AFP.

Jalalabad is 130km (80 miles) east of the Afghan capital, Kabul, close to the Pakistani border.

A US military spokesman in Kabul has said the reported desecration of the Koran was being taken seriously.

"We are investigating this and other complaints to see if in fact it has happened and, if so, to put in place procedures so that it will not happen again," he was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency.

On Sunday, the Pakistani government said it was "deeply dismayed" over the reports about the Koran.

Both Pakistan and Afghanistan are close allies of the US in its war against terror.

Insulting the Koran or Islam's Prophet Mohammed is regarded as blasphemy and punishable by death in both Pakistan and Afghanistan.

The US is holding about 520 inmates at Guantanamo Bay, many of them al-Qaeda and Taleban suspects captured in Pakistan and Afghanistan following the 11 September 2001 attacks in the US and subsequent invasion.

So I guess we can say that the methods used in Gitmo and elsewhere are somehow counterproductive, right ?

[SpongeBob 0]

Revealed: sex and torture inside the wire

This story keeps getting recycled every 3 to 4 months by various media around the world. Must of been the 3rd time I've seen it posted here in over a year. I'm sure it will be repeated a few more times right before his book is in the stores.

Still some of the best jerk off material I've read here.

[Balschoiw 0]

So ?

You claim it´s not true ?

[Crazysheep 1]

Following on from Balshoiws post:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4539477.stm

Quote[/b] ]Afghan anti-US violence escalates

The protesters are angry over reports that interrogators at the Guantanamo Bay prison desecrated the Koran.

Two people died in a shooting near the city of Jalalabad. Another person was killed west of the capital, Kabul.

As the violence spread from Jalalabad to other parts of the country, the UN has announced that it is pulling out its international staff from the city.

Correspondents say the protests are the largest against the US since the fall of the Taleban in 2001 and have now taken place in 10 of the country's 34 provinces as well as Kabul.

At least three demonstrations took place in Kabul on Thursday.

But the BBC's Andrew North says the worst trouble was in a district north west of Jalalabad, with two people being killed when shooting broke out. It is not clear who fired the shots.

Many more are reported injured.

Jalalabad was the scene of anti-US riots on Wednesday in which four people were killed.

Another person died on Thursday after a police ammunition store was set on fire west of Kabul, and south of the capital protestors ransacked two Western aid agency compounds.

The biggest of the Kabul protests was at the university where between 200 and 300 students shouted slogans against the US.

They chanted "Death to America!" and carried banners stating "Those who insult the Koran should be brought to justice."

One group of students climbed a building and set light to the US flag, to loud cheering from the crowd.

But heavily armed police, many in riot gear, prevented anyone marching beyond the university area.

Offices ransacked

"America is our enemy and we don't want them in Afghanistan," political sciences undergraduate Ahmad Shah told the AP news agency. "When they insult our holy book they have insulted us."

Another student told the AFP news agency that the US were "invaders" of Afghanistan who had done "nothing good for Islam".

Our correspondent says that the authorities are concerned that the demonstrations are being orchestrated, and that it may be significant that so far they have all happened in the east or south.

This is where US forces are concentrated in their battle against the Taleban and other militants.

Although allegations of the Koran being desecrated appear to have been the trigger, some analysts say the protests are also a reflection of growing resentment towards the Americans in these areas of Afghanistan.

In Jalalabad on Wednesday hundreds rioted over the allegations - reported in the American magazine Newsweek - that prison staff at Guantanamo Bay prison flushed at least one copy of the Koran down a toilet.

They caused widespread damage to property and four people were killed after two days of protests. All but essential UN staff are being withdrawn.

US authorities say they are investigating the Koran allegations.

President Hamid Karzai said the violence showed the inability of Afghan authorities to handle such protests.

Around 100 students from religious seminaries staged a demonstration over the same issue in Pakistan's northern city of Peshawar on Thursday.

Islamist parties in Pakistan have called for a nationwide strike over the issue on Friday.

Insulting the Koran or the Prophet Muhammad is regarded as blasphemy and punishable by death in both Pakistan and Afghanistan.  

Surprised no-ones posted this, as it is very worrying-could this escalate at all? There's already small amounts of anti-US violence in Afghanistan, but I wonder if this could lead on to it growing to a similar situation existing in Iraq-before it was only really ex-Taliban members and international militants(there was reports of Chechens fighting in Afghanistan) and now it looks like young Afghans are sick of the occupation. That would be awful, so many people getting blown up.  

Looking at it....wednesdays protest sparked off many more today (not sure how many) which suggests it's escalating. The fact it turned violent

Quote[/b] ] Another person died on Thursday after a police ammunition store was set on fire west of Kabul, and south of the capital protestors ransacked two Western aid agency compounds.

to the point of attacks on authorities and protesters being shot by police could be an omen of how it's going to turn out...

[Balschoiw 0]

The worrying thing is that by the actions of the US in Guantanamo and other torture facilities they put incredible danger on other nation´s troops also. The military Afghans don´t make much difference between US and "War on terror" coalition partners. And that gap will be nullyfied once the mob starts rolling.

They are now rioting in Kabul. Once the shit hits the fan noone will be able to keep out of this. And all that for the acts of US personel at Guantanamo. Thank you very much.

[Crazysheep 1]

I think the idea of liberating countries by destroying the oppressive government is pretty flawed. Simply destroying the government won't rid the population of disaffection and pent up aggression if you don't work to deal with poverty and social problems as well-before anyone brings up World War 2, bear in mind Japan was not actually invaded and West Germany had lots of money poured into it to help it recover, the allies having learned from their mistakes at Versailles where the poverty after World War 1 led to German rejection of democracy which they saw as "weak government." The fact is if a nation is disaffected, they crave the certainties of "strong government." I mean, look at Russia now-it still has horrendous problems after Communism collapsed, and after 10 years of these problems still not being flattened out the government has become increasingly authoritarian with virtually no resistance, and there's a lot of pro-Soviet feeling right now there.

The point is, I fear that merely "liberating" dictatorships isn't going to solve anything if the country invaded has huge economic problems, as Iraq and Afghanistan did; pent up frustration (and in these specific cases anti-western sentiments) and disaffection means that the population doesn't need to be pushed hard to take to arms so the countries are guaranteed to be violent places unless a certain amount of living comfort can be provided.

[Bordoy 0]

I think the idea of liberating countries by destroying the oppressive government is pretty flawed. Simply destroying the government won't rid the population of disaffection and pent up aggression if you don't work to deal with poverty and social problems as well-before anyone brings up World War 2, bear in mind Japan was not actually invaded and West Germany had lots of money poured into it to help it recover, the allies having learned from their mistakes at Versailles where the poverty after World War 1 led to German rejection of democracy which they saw as "weak government." The fact is if a nation is disaffected, they crave the certainties of "strong government." I mean, look at Russia now-it still has horrendous problems after Communism collapsed, and after 10 years of these problems still not being flattened out the government has become increasingly authoritarian with virtually no resistance, and there's a lot of pro-Soviet feeling right now there.

The point is, I fear that merely "liberating" dictatorships isn't going to solve anything if the country invaded has huge economic problems, as Iraq and Afghanistan did; pent up frustration (and in these specific cases anti-western sentiments) and disaffection means that the population doesn't need to be pushed hard to take to arms so the countries are guaranteed to be violent places unless a certain amount of living comfort can be provided.

I think Saddam and other leaders like Taliban, are the best of a bad bunch. You get rid of them, but then the terrorists are free to do what they like as they know the US won't do anything like Saddam would do to them.

[Nemesis6 0]

A little tip: Do not trust the BBC to be objective when it comes to: Terrorism, the middle-east, anything that can be editorialized. I generally don't watch and do my best not to trust anything I hear from the BBC. It's simply not worth it to believe the BBC's account. See the news, search for it elsewhere.

[Balschoiw 0]

The escalation of violence in Afghanistan is for real. It´s not only covered by BBC, but by all major news agencies. There is a trend right now, a trend backwards. Back into the taleban age. People in Afghanistan are a bit out of tune when it comes to all that new plastic-stuff-democracy. The youth shows more symphaty with US flag-burners and is gladly hopping on the pop-culture train which upsets the elders and gets them to rule and punish their youth while pushing them into the western-hate direction which is extremely fuelled by all the negative things US troops in the country and outside their country have done to their people. As the way of information in large regions of Afghanistan is still from mouth to mouth you can expect the worst. Guantanamo, and details about the conditions there are surfacing now in the offset afghan landscapes which have no TV or Internet. Expect the things to get worse.

Karzai is up to fight opium farmers. The problem is that the opium farmers have nothing else to earn their money from. Hamid Karzai wants the Anti terror forces to join the drugfight-boat. While they may appear drugs to us, they are the only way to earn money for a lot of aghanistan´s farmers.

The mujahedin who fought the USSR back in the days feel betrayed. They feel betrayed for their country and their wasted life they spent in combat with the USSR.

They are right now joining the anti-Karzai forces in masses and want to have "their" Afghanistan back.

Reasonable or not is not our question to ask. It´s their country and we only can hope that they prefer another way of life than stoneage islamism. But I´m pretty sure Karzai has had his days. Opposition is building very rapidly even within his warlord government and the Afghans are some really though guys when it comes to their values.

Karzai is seen as a betrayer in vast areas of the country, or a puppy of the US. His days are counted and they will deal with him in the usual afghan way, I´m afraid.

Once the drug war starts rolling he will be dead.

And every guy that returns from Gitmo or any other US sponsored torture place has a story to tell. Afghan people like stories and they will draw their own afghan conclusions. We´ve seen a bit of it already. But the big booms are still to come.

A comparison:

In the US a soldier is respected for being a soldier and defending all kind of values the government tells him to defend.

In Afghanistan the mujahedin are/were warriors for the infestation of afghan traditions and religious and independance values. Those are no values given by the government but by their family and root of origin and their believe.

Ask the russians what they have to say about them. Once they get going for "the cause" you can´t stop them as they will take the war over generations.

They all may look underdeveloped to us with our modern way of living, but never ever do underestimate their devotion to fight for what´s important for them. The USSR has made that fault and paid in masses.

Oh and by the way, the report on the koran flushing issue was in Newsweek magazine first.

And the Us military responded on may 13th that they are investigating...once more...I guess someday the US military will do nothing but "investigating"....with no proper results. It´s time to slap their hands and take the investigations to an independant level. This word, "Investigating" has turned into the most ridiculos expression from the US military since TBA is at work.

Afghan Protests Spread, not BBC but washingtonpost

Quote[/b] ]QALAT,

Afghanistan, May 13 -- Angry mobs ransacked government offices and relief agencies and clashed with police in several provinces Friday in a fourth day of growing anti-American demonstrations. The violence left at least eight people dead and raised the death toll since Wednesday to about 15, officials said.

The demonstrations represent the most widespread expression of anti-American sentiment since U.S.-led troops ousted the Islamic Taliban militia in late 2001. They have caused growing worry for the Western-backed government of President Hamid Karzai, who is due to visit Washington later this month.

The protests erupted Wednesday in the eastern city of Jalalabad and have now spread to the capital, Kabul, and four other areas. Demonstrations also took place in other Muslim countries Friday, although no serious violence was reported. Protesters gathered in several cities in Pakistan, as well as in Indonesia and the Palestinian territories.

The protests were sparked by a May 9 report in Newsweek magazine that interrogators at the U.S. military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, had placed copies of the Koran in bathrooms and flushed one text down a toilet.

Many of the detainees at Guantanamo are Afghans, and stories of American interrogators desecrating the Koran to extract confessions have circulated since at least early 2003, when some released prisoners returned to Afghanistan. But the Newsweek report has gained currency here since being fueled by broadcasts on Taliban radio and stoked by clerics who used Friday prayer sessions to call the demonstrations justified.

Some U.S. officials and analysts said the report, which appeared as a small item in Newsweek, was being manipulated as a way to inflame passions and undercut Karzai's authority ahead of his U.S. trip.

At the

Pentagon, Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters that the rioting in Afghanistan could be related to domestic Afghan politics. A State Department official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the demonstrations in Pakistan were being manipulated by al Qaeda supporters in retaliation for the arrest last week of Abu Faraj al-Libbi, identified as a senior al Qaeda leader, along with 10 other suspected terrorists.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Friday that U.S. officials "share and understand" Muslim concerns. "Disrespect for the holy Koran is something that the United States will never tolerate," he told reporters.

U.S. Secretary of State

Condoleezza Rice said this week that the military was investigating the allegations that American interrogators desecrated the Koran. She said that if they "are proven true, we will take appropriate action."

In Afghanistan, security experts warned that the violence could severely hamper international efforts to rebuild Afghanistan after decades of war. Offices of relief agencies in several cities have been attacked and evacuated this week.

"National and international security forces do not seem to be able to contain this," said Nick Downie, an official of the Afghanistan Non-Governmental Organization Security Office, speaking from Kabul. He said aid workers were "feeling a risk to their life" and have now pulled out of some high-risk areas.

Although Islamic clerics urged protesters to refrain from violence in their Friday sermons, protests broke out in scattered regions. In northeastern Badakhshan province, officials said hundreds of men attempted to pillage and torch three international relief agencies after Friday prayers.

The provincial governor, Abdul Majid, said by telephone that police shot at the protesters, killing three and injuring 13. A staff member at one aid group, Afghan Aid, said equipment was smashed but workers fled to safety.

In the city of Ghazni, 75 miles south of Kabul, shooting broke out after protesters stoned a police station and the governor's residence, crying, "Death to America," according to the Associated Press. Two civilians and a police officer were fatally shot and 21 people were wounded, the news agency reported.

One protester was killed in a clash with police and government soldiers in the town of Gardez, also south of the capital, and another man was killed in Qala-e Nau, the capital of far northwestern Badghis province, when police opened fire on a demonstration.

Lt. Cindy Moore, a spokeswoman for the U.S. military in Afghanistan, said in Kabul that U.S. officials were still trying to determine whether the demonstrations were spontaneous or coordinated. Afghan officials asserted that deeper forces were at work.

"This is organized by particular groups who are the enemies of Afghanistan," Interior Ministry spokesman Lutfullah Mashal told the Associated Press. "They are trying to show that the situation, that security, is not good."

American officials have hastened to declare the U.S. government's respect for Islam and the rights of Muslims to worship, even within U.S. military prisons.

U.S. officials offered various interpretations of the protests. The State Department official said anti-American groups in Pakistan were exploiting the Newsweek report to "swat back" at Washington and Islamabad, but that the incident had "lit a flame under what a lot of Muslims believe -- that Americans do not respect Islam."

Myers said U.S. military officials in Afghanistan believed the protests might be linked to political reconciliation issues. Karzai has been attempting to woo some ex-Taliban leaders back to public life, but Afghan and U.S. forces have faced a new series of attacks by Taliban fighters.

The governments of Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia appealed for calm, but Muslim governments also expressed concern about the Koran desecration reports. A Saudi official called for measures to prevent a recurrence and to "protect the sentiments of Muslims all over the world."

The protests have come at a delicate time for U.S. relations with the Islamic world, where the Bush administration is trying to promote democracy and combat terrorism. Muslim allies such as the Afghan and Pakistani governments must balance support for U.S. goals and responsiveness to domestic criticism that they are slavish to American demands.

Radwan Masmoudi, president of the Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy in Washington, said a "serious investigation" of the Guantanamo allegations was needed because the incident "strengthens the voice" of extremists who say the United States is "not serious in promoting freedom and democracy in the Muslim world."

Wright reported from Washington.

The most funny part is that Pentagon officials blame this on AQ, but as a matter of fact it is a result of their beloved Gitmo.

[Acecombat 0]

A little tip: Do not trust the BBC to be objective when it comes to: Terrorism, the middle-east, anything that can be editorialized. I generally don't watch and do my best not to trust anything I hear from the BBC. It's simply not worth it to believe the BBC's account. See the news, search for it elsewhere.

One might as well shut down the TV and not watch anything at all. If we dont see BBC then whats left? FOX , id stick with BBC then that. CNN ? They are pretty much the same as BBC is on such issues.

Now what .... , where do u search for a news if you shut down most major news sources out.

[Balschoiw 0]

The situation in Afghanistan has reached a deadlock position:

Clerics threaten holy war over alleged Quran desecrations

Quote[/b] ]FAIZABAD, Afghanistan (Reuters) -- A group of Afghan Muslim clerics have threatened to call for a holy war against the United States in three days unless it hands over military interrogators reported to have desecrated the Quran.

The warning on Sunday came after 16 Afghans were killed and more than 100 hurt last week in the worst anti-U.S. protests across the country since U.S. forces invaded in 2001 to oust the Taliban for sheltering Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda network.

The clerics in the northeastern province of Badakhshan said they wanted U.S. President George W. Bush to handle the matter honestly "and hand the culprits over to an Islamic country for punishment."

"If that does not happen within three days, we will launch a jihad against America," said a statement issued by about 300 clerics, referring to Muslim holy war, after meeting in the main mosque in the provincial capital, Faizabad.

The statement was read out by Abdul Fatah Fayeq, the top judicial official in the mountainous, conservative province near the borders of Tajikistan and China.

Muslim clerics have traditionally been teachers and leaders in Afghan society and throughout its history they have rallied public opinion and sometimes led uprisings against unpopular rulers and foreign occupiers.

Newsweek magazine said in its May 9 edition investigators probing abuses at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay found that interrogators "had placed Qurans on toilets, and in at least one case flushed a holy book down the toilet."

Muslims consider the Quran the literal word of God and treat each book with deep reverence.

The United States has tried to calm global Muslim outrage over the incident, saying disrespect for the Quran was abhorrent and would not be tolerated, and military authorities were investigating the allegation.

Growing protests

Another group of clerics in the north demanded punishment for those responsible for desecrating the Quran but did not call for holy war, the governor of Kunduz province said.

The protests began in the eastern city of Jalalabad on Tuesday. Violence broke out there on Wednesday and there were clashes in several other places on Thursday and Friday.

Scattered protests on Saturday were mostly peaceful, while on Sunday no demonstrations were reported.

While some Afghan analysts say Muslim rage over the desecration report sparked the protests, not hatred of America, there is growing resentment of U.S. troops, especially in southeastern areas where they are most active.

The United States commands a foreign force in Afghanistan of about 18,300, most of them American, fighting Taliban insurgents and hunting militant leaders, including bin Laden.

President Hamid Karzai, a staunch U.S. ally, has urged the United States to punish anyone found guilty of desecrating the Quran. He said foreign hands were behind the disturbances, but did not identify them.

The anti-U.S. protesters have also criticized Karzai and his U.S.-backed government, attacking and torching provincial offices and police stations as well as U.N. and aid agency compounds.

[Crazysheep 1]

This is looking really nasty....Bals, you know about Afghanistan, what do you expect will happen there if clerics do declare holy war?

Also, an Islamic protest/rebellion in Uzbekistan was stamped out brutally.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7837128/

Quote[/b] ]ANDIJAN, Uzbekistan - An estimated 500 bodies have been laid out in a school in the eastern Uzbek city where troops fired on a crowd of protesters to put down an uprising, a doctor said Sunday, corroborating witness accounts of hundreds killed in the fighting.

The doctor, who said she had seen the bodies, said residents were coming to Andijan’s School No. 15 to identify dead relatives, who had been placed in rows. Soldiers were guarding the school, said the doctor, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The doctor also said she believed some 2,000 people were wounded in the clashes on Friday, but it wasn’t clear how she arrived at that estimate.

Thousands flee to border

Thousands of terrified Uzbeks trying to flee into Kyrgyzstan burned a government building Saturday and attacked border guards, a second day of violence triggered by a brazen jail break to free accused Islamic militants and a massive demonstration against economic conditions under the iron-fisted rule of President Islam Karimov.

There was no immediate word on casualties in Saturday’s violence in this former republic of the ex-Soviet Union. Witnesses on Friday had said 200 to 300 people were killed in the gunfire; the doctor’s report of 500 dead raised that estimate.

Andijan is Uzbekistan’s fourth-largest city, about 30 miles from the country’s easternmost border in the narrow finger of territory that protrudes deep into Kyrgyzstan, where an uprising in late March ousted that country’s only post-Soviet leader.

The Uzbek unrest began overnight Friday when protesters freed as many as 2,000 prisoners, including the 23 members of the Akramia Islamic group on trial on charges of being members of a group allied with the outlawed radical Islamic party Hizb-ut-Tahrir. It seeks to create a worldwide Islamic state and has been forced underground throughout most of Central Asia and Russia.

Karimov’s hardline secular regime has a long history of repressing Muslims who worship outside state-approved mosques.

In the course of Friday, thousands of people swarmed into the streets of Andijan, clashing with police and seizing the administration building, which was later taken back by government forces. Demonstrators did not call for the ouster of Karimov but instead complained bitterly about the dire economic conditions.

Concern from U.S., Russia

Russian President Vladimir Putin telephoned Karimov on Saturday to express concern that the violence could destablize Central Asia, the Kremlin press service said in a statement.

The U.S.-allied Uzbek leader blamed the fighting on Islamic extremists. During a news conference in the capital, Tashkent, he said 10 government troops and “many more†militants died in the fighting Friday. At least 100 people were wounded, Karimov said without specifying who started the shooting.

Uzbekistan hosts a U.S. air base in the Karshi-Khanabad region, 90 miles from the Afghan border, to support military operations in that country after the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States. The number of troops there has reached several thousand at times. The base is more than 430 miles southwest of Andijan.

The White House on Saturday declined to comment, although press secretary Scott McClellan on Friday urged both the government and demonstrators to “exercise restraint.â€

I wonder if anything will come of this-it seems unlikely. The Uzbek show of force would probably scare the opposition into silence.

[EiZei 0]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7837128/

Quote[/b] ]ANDIJAN, Uzbekistan - An estimated 500 bodies have been laid out in a school in the eastern Uzbek city where troops fired on a crowd of protesters to put down an uprising, a doctor said Sunday, corroborating witness accounts of hundreds killed in the fighting.

The doctor, who said she had seen the bodies, said residents were coming to Andijan’s School No. 15 to identify dead relatives, who had been placed in rows. Soldiers were guarding the school, said the doctor, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The doctor also said she believed some 2,000 people were wounded in the clashes on Friday, but it wasn’t clear how she arrived at that estimate.

Thousands flee to border

Thousands of terrified Uzbeks trying to flee into Kyrgyzstan burned a government building Saturday and attacked border guards, a second day of violence triggered by a brazen jail break to free accused Islamic militants and a massive demonstration against economic conditions under the iron-fisted rule of President Islam Karimov.

There was no immediate word on casualties in Saturday’s violence in this former republic of the ex-Soviet Union. Witnesses on Friday had said 200 to 300 people were killed in the gunfire; the doctor’s report of 500 dead raised that estimate.

Andijan is Uzbekistan’s fourth-largest city, about 30 miles from the country’s easternmost border in the narrow finger of territory that protrudes deep into Kyrgyzstan, where an uprising in late March ousted that country’s only post-Soviet leader.

The Uzbek unrest began overnight Friday when protesters freed as many as 2,000 prisoners, including the 23 members of the Akramia Islamic group on trial on charges of being members of a group allied with the outlawed radical Islamic party Hizb-ut-Tahrir. It seeks to create a worldwide Islamic state and has been forced underground throughout most of Central Asia and Russia.

Karimov’s hardline secular regime has a long history of repressing Muslims who worship outside state-approved mosques.

In the course of Friday, thousands of people swarmed into the streets of Andijan, clashing with police and seizing the administration building, which was later taken back by government forces. Demonstrators did not call for the ouster of Karimov but instead complained bitterly about the dire economic conditions.

Concern from U.S., Russia

Russian President Vladimir Putin telephoned Karimov on Saturday to express concern that the violence could destablize Central Asia, the Kremlin press service said in a statement.

The U.S.-allied Uzbek leader blamed the fighting on Islamic extremists. During a news conference in the capital, Tashkent, he said 10 government troops and “many more†militants died in the fighting Friday. At least 100 people were wounded, Karimov said without specifying who started the shooting.

Uzbekistan hosts a U.S. air base in the Karshi-Khanabad region, 90 miles from the Afghan border, to support military operations in that country after the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States. The number of troops there has reached several thousand at times. The base is more than 430 miles southwest of Andijan.

The White House on Saturday declined to comment, although press secretary Scott McClellan on Friday urged both the government and demonstrators to “exercise restraint.â€

I wonder if anything will come of this-it seems unlikely. The Uzbek show of force would probably scare the opposition into silence.

Oh yes..

The guy on every picture is the "president" of Uzbekistan, Islam Karimov.

Quote[/b] ]

I am delighted to be back in Uzbekistan. I’ve just had a long and very interesting and helpful discussion with the President, with the Minister of Defense, and members of the delegation. Uzbekistan is a key member of the coalition’s global war on terror. And I brought the President the good wishes of President Bush and our appreciation for their stalwart support in the war on terror . . . Our relationship is strong and has been growing stronger.

Donald Rumsfeld

Press Briefing in Uzbekistan

February 24, 2004

Quote[/b] ]

I was recently in a meeting with . . . Karimov, in which [bush] said to him: "Yes, I appreciate what you've done in the war on terrorism, this is terrific and we're glad that we were able to deal with the [islamic Movement of Uzbekistan ]; our relationship will get stronger as you reform economically and politically." And you can never leave those words out of any such conversation.

Condoleezza Rice

Remarks at School for Advanced International Studies

April 29, 2002

Quote[/b] ]

Uzbekistan, which became an independent state in 1991, has retained much of its Soviet legacy. It has no independent political parties, no free and fair elections, and no independent news media. Torture and police brutality are widespread. Most vulnerable are political dissidents and religious Muslims who worship outside state controls.

Human Rights Watch

U.S. Cautioned on New Ally

October 4, 2001

Round and round we go and so forth

[Akira 0]

Those protestors were probablly terrorists!

[Bordoy 0]

Thank god my brothers regiment got out of Afghanistan about 2-3 weeks ago.

Quote[/b] ]Those protestors were probablly terrorists!

Yep, why else would they want the terrorist prisoners to be released?

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Those protestors were probablly terrorists!

Yep, why else would they want the terrorist prisoners to be released?

....it could be that the reasons for the demonstration/uprising could be more than just black or white - terrorists or not?

How about the economic situation, opression form the regime etc. And how do we know for sure that those in prison really are terrorists? Could it possibly be that they are labeled so by the regime in order to get rid of people opposing the regime?

I have a feeling that the actual number of terrorists don't quite match the claimed number in that region anymore....

Regards

Christian