Tow's aav7 version 1.1 released

[ZLOY 0]

That was most likely a mobility kill.  They showed the wreckage from many different angles and I could not see any holes in it.  However the tracks were blown off on one side suggesting a mobility kill.  In addition, the ammo storage area had the roof panels blown off suggesting also that a RPG may have penetrated the roof armor and set off the ammunition.  But fortunately for the crew, the M1 is designed with armored ammo doors inside and with "blow-off" roof panels that are designed to channel the explosion up and out of the turret.  But who knows for sure how it was taken out.  For all I know it could have been a big AT mine or stacked AT mines that set it off.  That's how the Palistinians for example, have taken out Merkava tanks...although in their case I believe they used a home made giant shape charged explosive set off manually.

So yeah, there are lots of ways to kill or immobolize even the toughest tanks but I don't think a RPG-7 penetrated the front, side, or even rear armor on the M1.  

We'll probably never know as most of the after-action reports will likely be classified for many years.  However I'm sure other countries are sending in fact-finding teams to interview ex-Iraqi soldiers to learn what they experienced going up against a modern Army and what worked and what didn't work.

The Russians especially I'm sure are very interested because when they tried similar tactics in in the capital of Chechnya, their tank columns were massacred.   If I was a military analyst I'd love to compare the initial assault on Grozni with the assault on Baghdad.  

Interestingly enough, the AAV-7's played a key role in that assault, yet I don't believe the Marines lost any of them in Baghdad.  Either the Iraqi soldiers were so poorly trained as to realize how vulnerable those big APC's were, or the Marines used effective coutnermeasures to suppress RPG gunners... afterall the Marines are VERY well trained in urban warfare.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Don't even try to compare Chechnya to Iraq or Afghan (2001) or whatever......

And RPG (PG-7V) can a does penetrates the armor of an M1A2/1 (on the side, dont know about the front, and I doubt that I can penetrate the frontal one), infact, Ive seen a few pictures of it....even a 23mm bullet/shell fired from a ZU-23-2 leves small holes on the turret, and sides, and if it hits the ammo compartment or engine block, it puts it on fire...

[edc 0]

I really doubt an RPG-7 could destroy an abram, but thats for another thread.

About the AAV7:

It's a lot better than the first version, w/ more realistic armor, and can carry a lot more marines. I'd really like it though, in the next version if the Mk19 had a lot more of an arced trajectory, it's too flat, just like the earlier version. But, it's still a very nice addon, I'd highly reccommend it.

[MLF 0]

I believe even an M1A2 was knocked out by an RPG-7 on a stroll through Baghdad, it was shown on the news with Iraqi's jumping all over it.

they hit it in the radiator grill, US later destroyed it.

[Sxep 0]

There is a polygone failure on the roof.

You can see throu the tank when you look from the right side( the failure is on the left, between the antennas)

[Mr B 0]

I also plan to animate the water jets and side louvers so when the aav7 enters the water the covers open and the jets start spinning.  I will have to figure out how to write a script to automate this.  I also would like to have the bowplane raise and lower automatically depending on the aav7 position to water.  Probably gonna have to be based on elevation.  

You could try looking at the CoC swimmer script. It activates automatically the moment you enter the water over head height. Just the right depth to start the jets / raise the flap.

Cheers

Mr B

[Commander-598 0]

The primary armor on the AAV7 is aluminum. The only steel piece on the whole vehicle is the turret.

Not exactly something that was meant to go cross country, but when your low on trucks and other APCs...

[343rdBadger 0]

don't know if this is universal..but the sounds on the m19 are very low...the impact sounds are ok...but it seems you can barely hear the launcher actually fire?

[miles teg 1]

Don't even try to compare Chechnya to Iraq or Afghan (2001) or whatever......

And RPG (PG-7V) can a does penetrates the armor of an M1A2/1 (on the side, dont know about the front, and I doubt that I can penetrate the frontal one), infact, Ive seen a few pictures of it....even a 23mm bullet/shell fired from a ZU-23-2 leves small holes on the turret, and sides, and if it hits the ammo compartment or engine block, it puts it on fire...

Holes are one thing, penetration is quite another. I have no doubt that 23mm API ammo (normally used on the ZSU's if I remember correctly) may take out chunks of the armor but I SERIOUSLY doubt an RPG can penetrate the very heavy side turret and hull armor of an M1. Hell, they can't even penetrate the side armor of a Bradley. Numerous failed RPG attacks on Bradleys and testimonies from imbedded reports riding in them testify to the fact that RPG's can not penetrate the side hull armor of a Bradley IFV. I seriously doubt the M1 has weaker armor on the side then a Bradley. Ever hear about something called Depleted Uranium armor?

Also I never mentioned Afghanistan.

Where do you get your info anyways and where did you see those pictures?

I can find you TONS of sources on anti-armor tactics used in Chechnya some of which were written by Russian military commanders. Can you find me anything to that effect regarding anti-armor tactics used by the Iraqis?

The easiest way to take out an M1 tank is to simply immobolize it. This forces the crew to bail out especially in a fast moving urban armor assault. For all we know that M1 shown on TV may have suffered a mobility kill and after the crew had been rescued, the M1 may have been abandoned and left for Iraqis to continue to shoot from windows and at close range at the turret ring.

But who knows what happened. If you have sources with info on dammage sustained by M1's in combat I'd love to read it. Otherwise you're just making assumptions that don't match what data is out there regarding the armor levels on M1's and their performance in combat.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[ZLOY 0]

here's one of them.....

[Sxep 0]

wauw such a litle hole, with such a big explosion spash.

[ZLOY 0]

It not supposed to make big holes, cause all the energy goes inside the tank, but this is just a crappy PG-7V, so it didnt do any dmmage inside the tank..

[Shashman 0]

BTW Miles...It's not depleted uranium armour...you can get DU tipped rounds but not armour.

You must mean reactive armour...

[Sxep 0]

It not supposed to make big holes, cause all the energy goes inside the tank, but this is just a crappy PG-7V, so it didnt do any dmmage inside the tank..

You never learn enough  

But did it take out the M1?

[edc 0]

Quote[/b] ]BTW Miles...It's not depleted uranium armour...you can get DU tipped rounds but not armour.

You must mean reactive armour...

Actually I believe it does have DU armor.

edit: yeah, I looked in a book

[munger 25]

BTW Miles...It's not depleted uranium armour...you can get DU tipped rounds but not armour.

You must mean reactive armour...

That's not true at all. The main difference between an M1A1 and an M1A2 Abrams is that the A2 incorporates a layer of Depleted Uranium armour into the frontal arc across the turret and hull. There was also a version of the M1A1 called the M1A1-HA (heavy armour) which added this but not the other improvements (commanders independent thermal viewer, new electronics suite etc). The M2A3 Bradleys used in Iraq were fitted with thin layers of DU across the front and along the side skirts as well, and these allowed many of them to survive hits from RPG-7's which would otherwise have penetrated. Sabot tank rounds have used DU tips to aid penetration for ages but DU armour is a more recent development (relatively speaking - it's been around for several years now but in military tech terms that's not a long time).

[ace21 0]

I read in a military magazine that iraqi`s 2. tankdivision " Al-Medina " destroyed 2 M1A2 abrams near kerbala. they used a new russian heavy antitank weapon called AT-14 Kornet which destroyed them completely. the tanks even burned out.

a teenager also shot down an apache with a rocket propelled grenade

[ZLOY 0]

there were no Kornet missales in Iraq....

[munger 25]

there were no Kornet missales in Iraq....

I'm not sure if this was ever proven either way but the rumour was that there WERE Kornet's in Iraq which had been supplied by the Russian military some time before hostilities began. It was all over the news at one point and the US and UK weren't happy about it for obvious reasons. If they were used in the war I'm not surprised they blew the M1's the pieces - if the specs are true they should be able to pierce the frontal armour of any tank in existence.

[NZXSHADOWS 0]

If you put all this armour on an AAV,do you think it will stay afloat?alrighty them.

[ZLOY 0]

There were no reported cases of an ATGM ever being fired at any U.S. Army vehicle....

and no Kornet missiles were found in Iraq.

[ace21 0]

I read that the U.S. State Department sources confirmed that Russia had indeed sold a wide variety of banned arms to Iraq as recently as one or two days before the allies struck.

The Russian equipment included a variety of night vision gear, GPS jamming equipment - included software and Russian engineers who have continued to work inside Baghdad - and a number of AT-14 Kornet anti-tank missiles.

[miles teg 1]

here's one of them.....

Zloy I ha dasked WHERE did you get the informations from?   Those pics are on your site and don't mean much without more information.  From the picture I can't even tell if the little hole on the side matches the dammage shown on the right picture or whether those pictures are even from the same vehicle.  

It also does not show that the tank was fully penetrated (into the crew compartment).

The hole on the side skirt of the M1 however is consistent with the dammage from an RPG-7 warhead which has a penetrating metal slug behind the high explosives (hence the big splash markings from the HE part).

But anyways, again where did you get these pictures from?

Also there are reports that AT-14's were used in Karbala but they are disputed by other sources which say that there were no reports.  I'm not familiar with the warhead on the Kornet but it is possible from reports of illegal arms sales, that some were used.  If this is true, it would be of huge significance to the Russian manufacturers of the Korneta. A lot of Middle Eastern countries will be buying them if it can be proven that they can destroy an M1 with a frontal or side hit.

Here's some info from:

http://www.phoenix158.org/iraq/Documented%20Coalition%20Losses.cfm

Also Janes Defense has a good article at:

http://www.janes.com/regiona....n.shtml

******

Abrams tank showed 'vulnerability' in Iraq

Tim Ripley JDW Correspondent

The US Army's M1 Abrams main battle tank (MBT) top side, and rear armour "remains susceptible to penetration" and needs improving, according to the Tank and Automotive Command's (TACOM) Abrams programme manager office (PM Abrams).

In a report into the US Army's principal MBT's performance during Operation 'Iraqi Freedom', however, PM Abrams said the tank's frontal turret and hull armour continues to provide excellent crew protection.

"The tank performed extremely well providing excellent manoeuvre, firepower and overall crew protection", concluded the report, which has been seen by JDW. "Engines typically outlived expectancies and transmissions proved to be durable."

PM Abrams personnel deployed forward with US Army divisions during the war and collected first-hand feedback from tank crews to compile the report. There were "no catastrophic losses due to Iraqi direct or indirect fire weapons," but several tanks were destroyed due to secondary effects attributed to Iraqi weapon systems. US Army sources told JDW that the report was only "preliminary observations" rather than a definitive study and more work was continuing to further refine the exact causes of US tank losses in Iraq. Other US Army sources report that 14 Abrams tanks were damaged and two destroyed during the war.

Most M1 losses were attributed in the report to mechanical breakdown, or vehicles being stripped for parts or vandalised by Iraqis. There were "no reported cases" of an anti-tank guided missile being fired at any US Army vehicle.

Details of the M1 losses were given, including one where 25mm armour-piercing depleted uranium (AP-DU) rounds from an unidentified weapon disabled a US tank near Najaf after penetrating the engine compartment. Another Abrams was disabled near Karbala after a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) penetrated the rear engine compartment and one was lost in Baghdad after its external auxiliary power unit was set on fire by medium-calibre fire.

Left and right side non-ballistic skirts were repeatedly penetrated by anti-armour RPG fire, according to the report, but only cosmetic damage was caused when they were struck by anti-personnel RPG rounds. There were no reported hits on ballistic skirts and no reported instance of US tanks hitting an anti-tank mine. Turret ammunition blast doors worked as designed. In one documented instance where a turret-ready ammunition rack compartment was hit and main gun rounds ignited, the blast doors contained the explosion and crew survived unharmed except for fume inhalation.

******

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Sxep 0]

I read that the U.S. State Department sources confirmed that Russia had indeed sold a wide variety of banned arms to Iraq as recently as one or two days before the allies struck.

The Russian equipment included a variety of night vision gear, GPS jamming equipment - included software and Russian engineers who have continued to work inside Baghdad - and a number of AT-14 Kornet anti-tank missiles.

hmm even farmers get "Hightech" or what?

[Sxep 0]

I think Russia is the root of all evil in the MiddleEast.

All the Soldiers in russia own no or atleast a really poor Sold (cash) so they start selling there weapons.

The U.S. should "terminate" this weapon source so the East won´t get much supplies from there.

[edc 0]

Quote[/b] ]I read that the U.S. State Department sources confirmed that Russia had indeed sold a wide variety of banned arms to Iraq as recently as one or two days before the allies struck.

The Russian equipment included a variety of night vision gear, GPS jamming equipment - included software and Russian engineers who have continued to work inside Baghdad - and a number of AT-14 Kornet anti-tank missiles.

Well, if that's true, maybe we should start selling weapons to Chechnya and see how they like it.