The Iraq Thread 2

[Longinius 1]

" Those guys knew they would eventually wind up being tried after the war, why give the enemy the rope to hang themselves with?"

Then where was that immidiate threat that warranted the war to start with? According to TBA there was a grave and imminent threat of attack from Iraq using these WMD's.

[joltan 0]

The German online news service Spiegel Online had an article from the New York Times, that I find quite interesting (it's an 'opinion', but still).

BTW: Schoeler, while you may not consider TBA your governement, they are. They are the ones who decide the countries fate (and your's, too) right here and now. Just saying "I'll voice my opinion on the ballot box" and keeping low till then won't really help you much. In a country who's politics seem to depend mainly on public opinion polls you also have a say inbetween elections.

[FallenPaladin 0]

Unfortunately it`s normal for most of the people all over the world (even and especially here in Germany) to sit out and wait until a bad leading party has to leave. We`re just to lazy to kick them out ourselves.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Unfortunately it`s normal for most of the people all over the world (even and especially here in Germany) to sit out and wait until a bad leading party has to leave. We`re just to lazy to kick them out ourselves.    

The worst party in the world! (spd+pds+IG-Metall

But lets go back to fiction. Assuming the americans would have respected (dont be sensitive about the word respected, okay?) the UN-decision to give the weapon inspectors more time.

And let us assume they would NOT have found any weapons of mass destruction (very likely), what would have happened to Iraq then? Eternal sanctions? Eternal Husseins in power?

Just a question!

[Crazysheep 1]

Unfortunately it`s normal for most of the people all over the world (even and especially here in Germany) to sit out and wait until a bad leading party has to leave. We`re just to lazy to kick them out ourselves.    

Heh, that's a damn good thing we don't though....we would live in a pretty damn violent country if we overthrew our government every time they did a mistake like this......

Actually, has there ever been something as bad as this that people have found out about? I think this is one of the biggest politic scandals in the modern western world.

[Balschoiw 0]

I wouldnt call the the Us / Brits initiative a mistake.

It was intentional betrayal of the world public and therefore the responsible ones should be treated like criminals of war.

Hang them high.

[Crazysheep 1]

I wouldnt call the the Us / Brits initiative a mistake.

It was intentional betrayal of the world public and therefore the responsible ones should be treated like criminals of war.

Hang them high.

But not TOO HIGH. I would want to hang them just a centimetres above a raging fire.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Assuming the americans would have respected (dont be sensitive about the word respected, okay?) the UN-decision to give the weapon inspectors more time.

And let us assume they would NOT have found any weapons of mass destruction (very likely), what would have happened to Iraq then? Eternal sanctions? Eternal Husseins in power?

Just a question!

Anyone?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Eternal sanctions? Eternal Husseins in power?

Once focussed upon the sanctions would have to be lifted. Maybe a change like the one ongoing in Iran would have been likely but and that is a big BUT the sum of different tribes , religions and ethnicies in Iraq will always need a strong ruling hand. Otherwise this country will not be controlable. US is no alternative. They even can´t protect themselves and are too focussed on the oil. No Iraqi will trust them if they don´t change their policy down there in a dramatical way. The exile leaders like Challabi and others are not wanted by the Iraqis for good reasons. They have an US flag tatooed on their backs and the local people know that. Democracy the word Bush abused so often when it came to the people of Iraq will not work in Iraq. It will be a mixture of military pressure and strong leadership combined with efforts to let people vote. Another possibility is that Iraq will split into several independant regions but that´s the most unlikely one. But still there is a chance.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I was against this war for legal and moral concerns, but in the end it doesnt matter if Saddam fills mass graves of innocent people or the US does it. But what matters is that the Iraqis had lost all their initiative and motivation to contradict Saddam. This family with all its ruling cruelty (u should have read last weeks DER SPIEGEL) would have stayed, longer than BUSH, longer than the rumor of weapons of mass-destruction and definetly longer than the sanctions!

Both options suck! lets be honest!  

[Balschoiw 0]

well but what makes the US forces so different ? Do they respect the Iraqis and brought freedom to them ?

Oh well but what else can you do with a country full of AQ terrorists and WMD´s than build a fence around and rule them with the iron fist....

And don´t be blind. Saddam is still in the country alive and kicking. The US were not able to find him and there is a risk that not only Saddam will get into power again but a lot of former Baath party members who have turned towards the US now and provide them with info. One devil is not gone and several others are at the door.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

The US were not able to find him and there is a risk that not only Saddam will get into power again but a lot of former Baath party members who have turned towards the US now and provide them with info

good point. We know now that a lot of the rumor about WMD were spread by Iraqis abroad who tried to get support from the americans and to get power to themselves. (and the CIA wanted to believe it)

BUT at least we can say that we have an open end again. It might turn really bad or it might slowly get better. But before this country was frozen by a brutal regime.

handcuffing children? yeah right!!! Going a litte too far dont u think? picture link!

[Badgerboy 0]

Six British Troops killed in Iraqi ambush

You don't want Para's with itchy trigger fingers.

[Crazysheep 1]

Six British Troops killed in Iraqi ambush

You don't want Para's with itchy trigger fingers.

Shows the resistance is strengthening. This is the first attack on Britons, but the US troops have had them daily since the start of the month. They also injured 8, 2 of which are critically wounded....unfortunatly, no news station cares about how many Iraqis were killed so it is difficult to know how organised they are. If no were killed, then they must have organised extraction which would suggest they are organised.

Why, oh why, are the western news stations so damn useless?

[Schoeler 0]

well but what makes the US forces so different ? Do they respect the Iraqis and brought freedom to them ?

Oh well but what else can you do with a country full of AQ terrorists and WMD´s than build a fence around and rule them with the iron fist....

And don´t be blind. Saddam is still in the country alive and kicking. The US were not able to find him and there is a risk that not only Saddam will get into power again but a lot of former Baath party members who have turned towards the US now and provide them with info. One devil is not gone and several others are at the door.

OK Superman, let's see you and your country's army go in there and straighten out that mess in the amount of time you seem to think it should have been done!  Are you really that delusional?  Did you really believe in your heart of hearts that the U.S. was going to be able institute a perfectly working and peaceful democratic government in Iraq in just a few short months?  After years of despotic rule from the Baath Party and the Hussein regime, Iraq is going to take 5-10 years to transition into a modern, peaceful democratic nation.  Now, your posts have strayed back into the ridiculous!

[Crazysheep 1]

Schoeler, your post is generally correct BUT there was indeed not enough emphasise put on rebuilding....hospitals were not guarded and secured at first, unlike the ministry of oil. I also think they haven't fixed the water supplies yet.....the problem may be exaggerated, but the problem still exists and is a significant factor in the strength of Iraqi resistance; it reinforced the belief that the US was plundering their oil, (I am not starting a debate on how accurate this belief is) and we can see this is definitely a reason through interviews with captured Iraqis and the fact oil pipelines have been attacked. If the people at Washington took their time on the economic reasons for war and nurtured the moral reasons for war, then the lives of soldiers would have been saved.

[Longinius 1]

You're gonna see more and more people oppossing the coalition, especially since they now feel occupied by the US. The fact that many workers arent even allowed back to work on oil fields, in favor of US workforces being brought in, doesnt exactly help it.

[Schoeler 0]

I agree, it doesn't look too stellar from a public relations standpoint, and the Bush Administration has proven itself totally inept at post-war reconstruction thus far, but let's be realistic here people. Its going to be a decade, and maybe two before Iraq looks like a modern nation-state.

[Crazysheep 1]

I agree, it doesn't look too stellar from a public relations standpoint, and the Bush Administration has proven itself totally inept at post-war reconstruction thus far, but let's be realistic here people.  Its going to be a decade, and maybe two before Iraq looks like a modern nation-state.

Indeed. And this is not going to be helped by resistance forces.

[DracoPaladore 0]

Why, oh why, are the western news stations so damn useless?

As in any war, nobody will care much about the opposing force. People only really care about the soldiers of their countries and as long as their fighting, they don't care if its 1 or 1000. They only care that their sons/daughters/cousins/family members in the war efforts are killing their enemies.

Goes for any country, really.

[FallenPaladin 0]

I don`t know if that`s been mentioned before but I just read on http://www.n24.de that the US troops in Iraq captured the former Iraqi information minister ("comical ali") . Threat him good and give him a show on US-TV.

[Balschoiw 0]

He could be offered a job in the TBA administration  

Baghdad Bob

He may not be a good liar but his lies were funny. TBA could really need someone like him to sell their lies  

edit:image size > 100k

[PitViper 0]

well but what makes the US forces so different ? Do they respect the Iraqis and brought freedom to them ?

Oh well but what else can you do with a country full of AQ terrorists and WMD´s than build a fence around and rule them with the iron fist....

And don´t be blind. Saddam is still in the country alive and kicking. The US were not able to find him and there is a risk that not only Saddam will get into power again but a lot of former Baath party members who have turned towards the US now and provide them with info. One devil is not gone and several others are at the door.

OK Superman, let's see you and your country's army go in there and straighten out that mess in the amount of time you seem to think it should have been done!  Are you really that delusional?  Did you really believe in your heart of hearts that the U.S. was going to be able institute a perfectly working and peaceful democratic government in Iraq in just a few short months?  After years of despotic rule from the Baath Party and the Hussein regime, Iraq is going to take 5-10 years to transition into a modern, peaceful democratic nation.  Now, your posts have strayed back into the ridiculous!

very well put Schoeler.

[CosmicCastaway 0]

Couldn't see this posted anywhere in this thread, but it's worth being aware of.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3018558.stm

[NurEinMensch 0]

well but what makes the US forces so different ? Do they respect the Iraqis and brought freedom to them ?

Oh well but what else can you do with a country full of AQ terrorists and WMD´s than build a fence around and rule them with the iron fist....

And don´t be blind. Saddam is still in the country alive and kicking. The US were not able to find him and there is a risk that not only Saddam will get into power again but a lot of former Baath party members who have turned towards the US now and provide them with info. One devil is not gone and several others are at the door.

OK Superman, let's see you and your country's army go in there and straighten out that mess in the amount of time you seem to think it should have been done!  Are you really that delusional?  Did you really believe in your heart of hearts that the U.S. was going to be able institute a perfectly working and peaceful democratic government in Iraq in just a few short months?  After years of despotic rule from the Baath Party and the Hussein regime, Iraq is going to take 5-10 years to transition into a modern, peaceful democratic nation.  Now, your posts have strayed back into the ridiculous!

As I see it the problem is not that they don't have established peace and order by now, but they never really cared about it prior to the war.

They planned alot, but they didn't plan well for the post war time and as good as they fought the war as bad are they at peace keeping.

They did make so much wrong (I wont list all of it again, it has been mentioned often enough already) it appears it's not just bad planning, it almost looks like it is intentional.

One may say "what reason would they have to keep it so violoent in Iraq wouldn't they want to make peace in their own interest?"

On the first look yes but if you think about it a peacefull Iraq would demand freedom, democracy and autonomy.

But as long as Iraq isnt stabilized the US has an excuse to keep the troops there and to deny Iraq it's own freely elected (Shiite(sp?)) government.

Makes sense especially if you think about rising tensions between the US and Iran.