Joint ammo and mag project (jam)

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

Our joint project with Digital Grenade is in full swing and we can now reveal some more information on what it is and how it works.

The Problem

You've got several units in a mission. For example, BAS Rangers, Earl/Suchey Marines, some ADF Forces and Codeblue units. Each carries a custom version of an M4 or M16. In real life each of the weapons can chamber the same mag, however in OFP, if your BAS Ranger runs out of ammo, you can't ask a Codeblue player for ammo or pick up ammo from a dead Earl/Suchey Marine and vice versa.

Why? Each mod has coded their magazines using their unique class tag. BAS_M4Mag for example, or ADF_M4Mag.

In real life...you could choose the weapon of your choice, your own customised M4 (in OFP, choose your favourite mods M4 or M16) but you could use any mag you found around the battlefield. That is to say, the magazines are the one constant between any variant of the M4 you choose to use.

The Answer

Enter into this problem the new initiative that Digital Grenade (Earl and Suchey) and BAS are working on that will make it's way into EVERY addon we produce.

The standard is called the Joint Ammo and Mags project (JAM). It is a magazine standard that we hope other mods will use to improve compatibility between similiar version of weapons made by different mods.

It works by Digital Grenade and BAS creating a new seperate pbo file called JAM_Magazines.pbo. It should contain only definitions for ammo, mags and sounds so that it remains small in size. We would continously update this file with new magazine and ammo definitions as required (eg. for AK-74 and 47 definitions, common handguns, etc.)

We see it working is as follows.

Transitional (existing units)

Say we have a new joint magazine called JAM_M4Mag, to use this we would edit the magazines line for our exisitng weapons.

So in the BAS_Weap.pbo for the M4's:

magazines[]={"BAS_M4Mag, JAM_M4Mag"};

Notice we keep the old magazine still useable by the weapon (to ensure compatiability with old missions) and we would edit the code for the BAS_Mags to reflect the new details we use in JAM ones.

We would then edit the standard loadout of the units from the BAS_M4mag to the JAM_M4mag.

New Units:

Any new units (eg SEAL's, SOAR, Marines) would then only use the JAM_M4mag, and we would include the JAM_Magazines.pbo with the unit pbos.

Already we have BAS, Digital Grenade, the ADF Mod and possibly Codeblue buying into this new system of mag sharing. Any mod is welcome to use the PBO to make their weapons compatible with our mag std. It's simply a case of downloading the JAM_Magazines.pbo and adding the mag definition to their new weapons and unit. This is an open std. and one that we hope the community will welcome.

We are preparing a webpage that explains JAM and that provides access to the latest versions of the PBO and documentation and also a logo that people can use to advertise their addons/mod as JAM compatible.

Constructive (emphasis on constructive) comments and thoughts here please.

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

As a side note.

This std is really only designed for sharing amongst COMMON weapons.

If you were to make a specialised sniper rifle or anti personnel rifle for example, it probably would not require a std. definition and you could create your ammo and mag classes in the addon.

This really is designed for sharing of common weapons ammo such as M4s, M16, AK47s, SAWS, RPKs, etc.

[Landwarrior87 0]

so this means like umm.. we can umm like sorta kinda.. like say for instance pick up a magazine from a DigitalGrenade marine.. and sorta kinda.. like umm for example use it on a Codeblue m16? and like what about.. sorta kinda umm picking up M203 grenades too? and like M136 AT4 rounds too? cuz that would be like.. like umm really really great.

[blackdog~ 0]

What about other MOD's who want to use this as well? Must they contact you?

[ralphwiggum 6]

this is a great move

one thing that I kind missed in OFP is interchangability between some magazines, since they are dependent on mods. hopefully this is the step towards improvement.

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

What about other MOD's who want to use this as well? Must they contact you?

Nope...like I said...just download the PBO and use it in your mod....and then slap an icon on your page to tell peeps its combatible.

The only reason for a mod to contact us about JAM is if they wanted to add to the list of magazine and ammo values.

[Major Fubar 0]

I think it's a fantastic idea!

But I have a few concerns/queries:

- AFAIK, it's the mag/ammo that controls the firing specs of the weapon (damage, range etc.)...my question is: who decides on the stats for the mags? Do they follow BIS standards for similar wepaons?

- Will this mean all these weapons will have the same firing sounds (does the mag/ammo control this, or the weapon?)

- 40mm grenades: will they take up 2 ammo slots as per BIS, or 1 slot as per BAS/SEB etc.

That aside, like I said, I think it's an absolutely awesome idea  

BTW, what is the commonality between G3, FNFAL, M14 and M21 mags, are they all identical?

[king homer 1]

yep give us a list with all weapon and ammo names which would be in this pbo

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

I think it's a fantastic idea!

But I have a few concerns/queries:

- AFAIK, it's the mag/ammo that controls the firing specs of the weapon (damage, range etc.)...my question is: who decides on the stats for the mags? Do they follow BIS standards for similar wepaons?

- Will this mean all these weapons will have the same firing sounds (does the mag/ammo control this, or the weapon?)

- 40mm grenades: will they take up 2 ammo slots as per BIS, or 1 slot as per BAS/SEB etc.

That aside, like I said, I think it's an absolutely awesome idea  

BTW, what is the commonality between G3, FNFAL, M14 and M21 mags, are they all identical?

sounds are associated with the ammo...so yes....they would all share the same sound.

I know where you are headed with this....but I feel the sacrifice in defining your own sound is worth it for compatibility.

As for ammo values...they are tweaked values from BAS units (in conjunction with Digital Grenade) that are based on BIS values. We have tried to maintain the game balance of the BIS values vs. new weapons.

I know everyon has their own opinions on ammo damage values but the idea of a std. is that we can agree on one that is not too far away from our own expectations. If you simply cannot agree, well then you dont have to use JAM (and therefore risk incompatibility with other well known mods and addons).

Will have to get back to you on ammo slots but my gut feeling is that they are an attribute of the unit...not the ammo. So JAM will not standardise ammo slots per unit. I will follow up on that though. Nice pick up.

We publish values and ammo types once we have our first draft complete....in the meantime...keep this discussion flowing.

Excellent points Fubar!

[Major Fubar 0]

sounds are associated with the ammo...so yes....they would all share the same sound.

I know where you are headed with this....but I feel the sacrifice in defining your own sound is worth it for compatibility.

As for ammo values...they are tweaked values from BAS units (in conjunction with Digital Grenade) that are based on BIS values. We have tried to maintain the game balance of the BIS values vs. new weapons.

I know everyon has their own opinions on ammo damage values but the idea of a std. is that we can agree on one that is not too far away from our own expectations. If you simply cannot agree, well then you dont have to use JAM (and therefore risk incompatibility with other well known mods and addons).

Will have to get back to you on ammo slots but my gut feeling is that they are an attribute of the unit...not the ammo. So JAM will not standardise ammo slots per unit. I will follow up on that though. Nice pick up.

We publish values and ammo types once we have our first draft complete....in the meantime...keep this discussion flowing.

Excellent points Fubar!

Thanks for the answers...

I agree with you, that similar weapons sharing a common firing sound is a small price to pay for this kind of inter-addon compatibility...

[Eviscerator 0]

- Will this mean all these weapons will have the same firing sounds (does the mag/ammo control this, or the weapon?)

- 40mm grenades: will they take up 2 ammo slots as per BIS, or 1 slot as per BAS/SEB etc.

BTW, what is the commonality between G3, FNFAL, M14 and M21 mags, are they all identical?

1. No, weapons of the same caliber will have the same firing sounds, so the M4/M16 will sound the same, however the AK-47/RPK will sound different from them. Also there will be a difference between machine guns and normal rifles, and sniper rifles and normal rifles, so expect different sounds with those, so for example:

M14 (7.62x51mm)

M240 (7.62x51mm)

M24 (7.62x51mm)

Will all have different sounds.

2. Coding is still in the early stages at the minute (but shouldnt take long) so this hasnt been decided yet, although it will probably be one slot.

3. In real life i believe there may be some differences, however with the JAM mags they will be the same, not too much of a problem as the player can always pretend hes taken the bullet out of the other weapons mag and put them into a spare mag.

One thing to point out however, is that weapons with dissimilar fire modes will not be able to share magazines, so the M4 will not be able to load M16A2 magazines, as the fire modes are programmed into the magazines.

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

Thanks Evisc...forgot the fire modes point.

[Major Fubar 0]

One more quick question for Evis or Tigershark...what will be the "onscreen" names of these mags? Instead of "Take M16 Mag", might it say "Take 5.56mm Mag" or something like that?

As a sidenote for the military experts out there - I assume different magazines have different designations in real life (like gas masks are called M40A1, flashlights have a number etc.), do you know where I could find a listing of these for my own reference?

[Tigershark_BAS 0]

Another good question Fubar....not sure of that convention yet. Not sure of a list of Army designations either. We will follow that up with Damocles our resident expert.

[SelectThis 0]

re: Naming, we will try to keep the names as generic as possible so that it doesnt intrude on the immersion factor.

So maybe something like

5.56 30rd NATO Semi

5.56 30rd NATO Full

7.62 30rd AK Semi

Complications due to the STANAG 4179 Magazines, evis and I will be doing more research. These are weapons that can use M16 type magazines. eg FAMAS G2, SA80

SelectThis

[GoOB 0]

Good initiative, at first i thought the project was jammed but so was not the case. Good to see add-on makers cooperating and giving us more realism even in simple ways

[sir guernsey 0]

a toast to Bas and Earl&Suchey, for their ongoing services to the ofp-community! Cheers

i really hope jam catches on with other mod teams!

keep on the good work!

[soul_assassin 1750]

Heeeey...y everyone forgot that RHS was also in on this (but so far all these werstern junkies have been discussin thier M4's and stuff over at digital grenade).

[Bambi 0]

Good to hear about this great joint effort

[Gummi 0]

This sounds great, and hope it will also work great, we [ABO] will hopefully use JAM for our addons...

btw get the best sounds you can possibly find, I have some sounds myself that you might want to take a look at.

cheers

[kikill 0]

i welcome this collaboration, and i'm sure it can (or will ?) be extanded to other part of addon production.

congrats guys.

standardization is en route: armour definition, now ammo...

[Landwarrior87 0]

yehs now that all the weapons sounds will have to sound the same, ima fraid the original BAS sounds will not work, lol no offence everything else i like but your sounds.. the m4's should sound a bit more "SNAP" noise, and the m249 and m240 just sound like pussies. give them the "Boom Boom Boom!" sound and im happy. seeing as that Suchey and earl's marines will have the same sounds, and codeblue units.. this will have to be a hell of a sound.. y dont u look at all u guys sounds.. and vote on who's sounds the best, when Suchey released that current conflict marine thing, that m16 had a good "MEAN" sound.

Any chance on doing a new Hand Grenade Model? like INQ did? maybe new grenade sounds also?

and since BAS & DigitalGrenade are working together.. this is a great time to ask about MFR units (Marine Force Recon). from pics ive seen, they look just like Delta's but the helmet is a differnt color.

[hellfish6 7]

I'm excited, boyos.

[Eviscerator 0]

We are by no means just considering our own sounds, a lot of our sounds will be new or really good sounds earl has found/edited for his weapons.

[lee_h._oswald 0]

One small step in OFP - Great step for the Community!

Another great afford to rise OFP realism.

Great idea BAS!

But what sounds will this project use?

Maybe by votes?

The best 10 sounds for download and then voting which will be used?

I prefer realistic sounds.

MfG Lee