Discuss about oicw and m4

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what happens when the terrorist get there hands on this<span id='postcolor'>

What if they get fertilizer in large amounts and some burnt pellets from a russian nuclear power plant ?

This question is senseless.

For the ones who want to know more about the OICW before they vote here are some interesting reads:

OICW from a tech side

OICW at sniper´s paradise

There seems to be a problem of understanding this weapon. This picture shows the 2 major parts of the gun. As you can see the launcher can be totally strapped of the gun to leave you with a fully working gun.

[Maraudeur 0]

That's innovative !

A 5.56 pistol !

[Necromancer- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Maraudeur @ 08 May 2003,14:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's innovative !

A 5.56 pistol ! <span id='postcolor'>

Actually....... a 5.56mm Machine Pistol.

[CuteQA 0]

It looks like a shorten modified G3A4 or MC51

I dont think the carbine part is really so bad( and it is made by HK )..........the only thing i worry is how do soldier aim target after it seprated.  

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ 08 May 2003,10:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

I'd like to see them add some kind of retractable/collapsible stock to this puppy in order to increase its utility- right now it would seem pretty usless in the infantry rifle role without its huge cousin to keep it company. You've gotten to fire this thing, right Bals? What capacity magazine is standard issue atm?

[Balschoiw 0]

the last I had for testing had 6 shots for the 20mm and 30 shot clip for the 5.56

Clips I have seen in use for it till now range from 15 to 30 shots for the 5.56.

The 6 shot loadout for the 20mm seems to be standard now.

EDIT: One thing I forgot to mention in my previouse posts is that the OICW has an effective range of 1000m´s. This outrules most other infantry weapons. The launcher is very precise if you use the laser effective. I was really impressed by the accuracy and range of the projectiles.

You know I am THE fan of 40mm grenade launchers and I will never leave my GraPi at home when I go abroad, but this OICW system really impressed me when it came to range and accuracy.

The Grapi seems to get outdated as it range is officially limited to 350m´s although I am used to hit targets on 400 and little above.

But 40mm´s are 40mm´s

[Jinef 2]

Hmm, we should be issued with those shortened G3s. Would be useful against sharks.

[dm 9]

bah... gimme KISS anyday...

Keep It Simple Stupid

Imagine the number of working parts on that... pita to clean, and a bitch to fix... and of course the Blue screen of death... quite literally...

Until this weapon system is proven to function under all conditions, with the minimum of serviceing (not having to be cleaned every 30 mins a-la SA80 ) the only place i'll touch one of these is on the range... Gimme an AK-47 anyday... 7 working parts... as long as it goes *bang* it does the job for me...

I hate the SA80, bitch to clean and a pig to use... the OICW will probably be even worse...

*wanders off mumbling*

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Sounds like a badass weapon if it works as advertised- I haven't met a soldier who wouldn't want to have access to that kind of firepower. But is it reliable? I mean, what happens if the laser's housing gets cracked or the lens gets scratched? And of course there's always the fear of being killed because there's a glitch in the software. Naturally they wouldn't outfit an entire section or squad with OICWs, so i don't see our infantry facing too serious a disadvantage in close quarters due to the weapon's size. The OICW has my full support (like it matters what I think lol) if it can be shown to be reliable in the typical conditions a grunt faces.

Offtopic: Hey Bals, are you still with the UN? Or are you a *ahem* military consultant?

[Renagade 0]

funny colors,i wonder if u could shoot those things out a shotgun

but how are the 20mm nades better than the 40mm ones wouldnt they be less powerful?

[CuteQA 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ 09 May 2003,22:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

funny colors,i wonder if u could shoot those things out a shotgun

but how are the 20mm nades better than the 40mm ones wouldnt they be less powerful?<span id='postcolor'>

the advantages of OICW 20mm grenades are longer range, lighter(which mean u can bring more ammo than 40mm), and better accuracy.

There is microchip in each of those 20mm grenades, which fuse can be setup by Fire Control System, provides air burst mode right over enemy's head.  The 20mm grenade also provide more stright ballistic to improve the accuracy, and the FCS will count the wind, range, and angle for you. You just need to aim the place where u want to shoot with the red dot.

If u r hiding behind a window at 700m(m203's max range is 400m, and it needs some luck), the OICW can take u out with its 20mm grenade easily.

Big doesnt mean better

correct me if i have anything wrong.@@

I hope OICW will become a successful weapon, it will change everything!

[Jinef 2]

Are you sure the average infantryman, let alone a US infantryman can be expected to programme these zip bang features under stress. The Royal Marine endurance run of 10 miles over obstacles also requires that they shoot efficiently without heavy breathing immediately after they finish, pressing little buttons and stuff is going to be hard work.

If you have ever done British Army basic training you know what i mean, the 8 mile run with a casualty is hard, but the field stripping of an SA80 after is very hard.

[FuseBox 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DeadMeatXM2 @ 09 May 2003,19:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hate the SA80, bitch to clean and a pig to use... the OICW will probably be even worse...<span id='postcolor'>

Aww damn never thought about that

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

I saw that on mail call to.He said that it would give the soldier a 500% increase in wounding/killing enemy soldiers, with that 20mm airburst feature.

[Cloney 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ 09 May 2003,22:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you sure the average infantryman, let alone a US infantryman can be expected to programme these zip bang features under stress.<span id='postcolor'>

Hah, thats funny. Considering our soldiers are pretty well educated and the majority of our army is made up of suburban kids with good educations that go off to college after their service.

I'm sure the British Army has some idiots too.

[sanctuary 19]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (CuteQA @ 09 May 2003,22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Big doesnt mean better

correct me if i have anything wrong.@@<span id='postcolor'>

I think that in June 1942 J. Robert Oppenheimer would have disagree with you

[CuteQA 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sanctuary @ 10 May 2003,07:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (CuteQA @ 09 May 2003,22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Big doesnt mean better

correct me if i have anything wrong.@@<span id='postcolor'>

I think that in June 1942 J. Robert Oppenheimer would have disagree with you <span id='postcolor'>

HEHE...time is changing

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ 10 May 2003,04:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ 09 May 2003,22:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you sure the average infantryman, let alone a US infantryman can be expected to programme these zip bang features under stress.<span id='postcolor'>

Hah, thats funny. Considering our soldiers are pretty well educated and the majority of our army is made up of suburban kids with good educations that go off to college after their service.

I'm sure the British Army has some idiots too.<span id='postcolor'>

It doesn't matter how much education you have, smart people can do stupid things under stress. Four or more years of University wont change that.

Tyler

[Jinef 2]

Yeah that's why we pilots have to undergo all the shit the infantry do, to put us under stres and see if we can still perform calculations, logic exercises and command decisions.

We do the Army courses sometimes cause they are better, the basic training in the Army is almost unheard of in the RAF, we're softies.

[9mm 0]

Hey, what about price?

IMO that's the main factor that excludes OICW from mass use, at lest in next 10-15 years.

Until that kind of hi-tech stuff gets much more cheaper i guess M4/M16 will remain in service. It's all about the things they attach to it.

[Maraudeur 0]

I saw on the link Balschoiw gave, * ahem *, at Sniper Paradise, that the expected range was 1000 meters    for the 20mm grenades and at least the same as the M16A2 for the 5.56 rounds.

All I have to say is :            

This is hilarious and crazy.

Will you say you believe it ? Will you say you've experienced it ??

Think just one minute before arguing about what that system could represent as " the average grunt firepower dream " lol.

The grenades first. diameter of grenades ( not complete round ) is half the M203 system, lenght just a little shorter.

Let's imagine the main fragmentation system is using alluminium or similar alloy fragmentation parts ( balls or pre fragmented its equal ), add the explosive, the electric ignition and electronic fuse ( cells needed !!! ), the receiver for this same fuse system in order to transmit to the fuse the time for ignition given by the gun aiming system....

Electronic parts maybe very, VERY small.

But those one will have to resist heavy stress. Shocks, vibrations, thermal, magnetic.

So it have to be protected.

Plus the cells inside the shell, who needs to be usable for a reasonable time ( storage ).

At least one third of the shell internal space is lost.

And it will be 500% more effective than the M203 round ?!?

Even with the air burst ?

While m203 style rounds already use ( for some ) light alloy for main body, for the balls, etc.... to carry more explosive and fragmentation device in the same round.

Is it a joke ?

Don't you think the political persons behind the project, industrial and military lobby is just trying to catch a lot of dollars ?

One thousand meters range ?!?

What do you believe the grenade weight is ?

One third of the M203 system grenades ? Wow, great engineering and industrial performances.

But that's not enough.

The launching system is the same as for the M203 rounds. One stage of high pressure in a cape at the bottom of the case, then pressure breaks off little holes where gazes expends in the main case body to less pressure and push the shell forward.

This two time working system is necessary, because if propellant was calculated to produce just a low level pressure in an unique chamber of ignition, the action to the shell forwards would begin too early and the vast majority would be lost, the shell leaving the short canon tube at slow speed before all gazes and propellant correctly ignites and expand in a big volume case.

This is the best combination actually possible without any counter mass or rocket assist device.

Do you believe the laws of physics do not apply to the OICW ?

Considering the mass of the grenade, do you imagine the level of energy necessary to reach ONE THOUSAND meters with sufficient speed ( for time to target, stability on longitudinal axis given by grooves, sensibility to wind ) and accuracy to be still considered as the max employement range ?

This means this would not be a low pressure system ?!? ( for the action towards the projectile ).

If it is not...recoil...what its value ?

LOL.

But those are subsonic grenades, eh ?

Grenades are curve fire ? This doesn't change much. If required energy is not there, you can point the weapon at extreme elevations, range will be limited.

Coumpare with russian 30mm grenades energy level, which is the nearest existing ammo ( for claimed ranges and ammo size, even if it is surely heavier ), you definitively cannot use it in a so light weapon, required energy level is huge.

1000 meters range and so good accuracy even at half the distance IS A LIE.

People who believe this effectivness and effective range are kids, ignorants without the low level required level of common sense , or heavily biased and blink persons, or all of that at the same time.

Now, please consider the 5.56 system.

Ok, I ironised telling it's a 5.56 pistol. Or machine pistol if some people prefer lol. It is not so innovative also, since 15 years, are available on the current market for who is interested, of similar toys to play at the range. ( for the fun you even can see one in a movie from a Tom Clancy scenario lol, drug dealers against CIA etc....when " Papa Bear " comes too late to save the infiltrated commandos except the sniper...well that's annother subject lol  )

Won't discuss about the lack of stock, aiming device ( or is it needed to dismout those on the big " grenade launching thing " box before carrying it on back, to place it on....errr, the pistol ? )

Examining recent picture, it is highly doubtable that those two elements are thinked as usable one without other.  

What's interesting, is that people think that the effective range will be " at least the same of M16A2 if not better ".

Again crazy smileys etc.....

There is nothing to gain from the ammo, the SS109 bullet reach or is near the pic of the best that round can give.

Still the laws of physics you know.

For the bullet : Diameter to lenght ratio, density, mass to speed, etc....

For the complete round : propellant powders reached a step we actually can't go further, except using complete new techs, that can't take place in a case like the one of the 5.56 and in those guns.

Well, the pistol thinh ( or sbmachine pistol )

Don't you have heard about the problems the M4 user's reported in afghanistan ( that's funnny they discovered it in the field...)

Barrel lenght is not enough for the bullet to reach sufficient speed.

And conducts to :

Bad accuracy because of groove speed of the cannon not correct for the bullet speed and mass, so the bullet is unstable around its axis, the nose of the bullet litterally describing circles around this axis. Since 200 meters, the bullets frquently comes to the target by...a 3/4 aspect, or sometimes complete side : yes yes, if you shoot a paper target you will have some impacts showhing complete bullet profile. Nice art work eh ??

For effectivness....well, imagine.

Since 300 meters, the gun is pretty useless.

Second problem, even at close range, loss os speed do not allow the two main components ( that should separate from the jacket ) of the SS109 round to produce the terminal ballistic effects they should.

and since SS109 at its best is already not so effective, nor the M193 was...

This is for the M4 barrel.

Have you noticed  how shorter the 5.56 thing's barrel is ?!?!?

Why do you believe the assault rifle keeps barrel length between 45 and 50 centimeters ??

- except for close range tactical use sub variants made more to keep a single weapon standart than because the use of 5.56 ammo with shorter barrel would be a good compromise ( and in fact it is not, true effectivness is to use a different ammo/weapon couple )-

You cannot upgrade the 5.56 ammo that much, and no any barrel rifling technology can change those facts. The best one is polygonal rifling where popelant gazes loses are restraint but the gain is of approximately 8% for a 45 cms lenght.

So what do you think about thos announced specs ?

Be serious.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">People who believe this effectivness and effective range are kids, ignorants without the low level required level of common sense , or heavily biased and blink persons, or all of that at the same time.

<span id='postcolor'>

Well I have shot the grenades from 400 - 800 m´s till now. And yes they worked precise on that range. We were not able to test it on ranges between 800 and 1000 cause we had no secure range with that length suitable and designated as rifle range. We wanted to take it to the tank firing range, but were not allowed to. So till now I have seen/shot grenades on 800 precise with the OICW. The 5.56 surely has it´s limitations due to barrel length and ammo used, but it´s the combination that makes the gun work. You don´t have to engage far enemies with the 5.56 part. Therefore you have a fast reloading 6 shot 20mm device that is in fact very accurate and effective. The firing comp is comparable to tank systems that shape contours and laserlock.

The split system is an emergency use function only. Noone intends to get rid of the firing comp if it is still working. So don´t fix to much on that.

The OICW will never be a mainstream infantry weapon but it´s range and precision with the 20mm´s and visual support for the soldier is outstanding and by now not comparable to any other infantry weapon. Like it or not. It will come and some will have the pleasure/frustration to work with it. I prefer the AG36 to it of course, but this doesn´t mean that I don´t have to work and train on more complex and technologically complicated weapons. Precision and range is what military planners are looking for. Makes sense if you outrule outdated guns with extended range and computer based firing solutions.

Like it or not. It has advantages.

[Maraudeur 0]

The problem is not if I like or dislike a thing or another.

But if this looks credible.

BTW, please, from your experience and observations :

Could you please tell me how is the felt recoil with the grenades, the elevation given to shoot at 800m, the flight time and grenade weight estimation ?

You said " shape contour and laserlock " for the aiming system ?

It's unclear to me could you please explain me ?

[CuteQA 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">People who believe this effectivness and effective range are kids, ignorants without the low level required level of common sense , or heavily biased and blink persons, or all of that at the same time.<span id='postcolor'>

Whatever you are right or not, dude!  This is discussing not fighting. Do not start flaming here

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Could you please tell me how is the felt recoil with the grenades, the elevation given to shoot at 800m, the flight time and grenade weight estimation ?

You said " shape contour and laserlock " for the aiming system ?

It's unclear to me could you please explain me ? <span id='postcolor'>

Felt recoil: Strong but weaker than with 40mm from GraPi

Elevation: I´ll give you the approximate angle here. Don´t have the right number in my head but must have been between 20 and 30. Don´t nail me to the cross but I didnt have my with me  

Flight time: between 2-4 seconds

grenade weight: hard to tell. Maybe it´s mentioned in the papers we got for the test procedures. I will look it up.

shape contour...:

Need to explain how the comp works.

1. Range laser to get range.

2. Check windspeed and direction (will be an inbuilt feature according to the guys from HK)

3. moving or pinned target decision

3. brackets show up around the targeted location or object

4. confirm firing solution.

5 fire.

This all (except windspeed and direction. we had to enter them manually in the test OICW but this will be automatically in the sales version) is done with the regular triggerset. You have 2 additional buttons at the firing lever to do that.

On a sidenote: You can override the comp by chossing manual track, but this is not recommended as the visor cooperates with the comp to much to give you a true heading and static marks.

EDIT: Well I need to add that recoil is something I am used to. I learnt shooting with 7.62 and 40mm´s all the way, so 5.56 and 20mm grenades are not really impressive. I know most of you guys shoot 5.56 or regular 9mm para, but I don´t really fit this group