The north korea thread

[Warin 0]

If we were in a similar situation, I am not sure we could be as 'forgive and forget' as you seem to be.

You're probably right.  As much as I hate to admit it, if I was tortured by an occupying army I probably wouldn't turn the other cheek.

I think the worst part is that there seems to be an almost cultural ignorance in Japan as to the attrocities commited by Japanese troops during WWII. Bot to indigenous populations, and to prisoners of war. Most Japanese today either dont know or deny the things that happened. And never once has there been an official apology by Japan to the people they did this to.

Dont get me wrong, I dont see the Japan of today as being like the Japan of that period. But it bothers me that while the German people have repeatedly apologised for, and educate people about, what happened in WWII... The Japanese seem happy to forget.

Back to Korea..

I finally picked up a copy of that National Geographic with the article on Korea and the DMZ. Very interesting. It's strange, that in spite of all the nuclear rhetoric coming out of Pyongyang, that there seems to be a slow but steady movement towards more cross border travel and understanding.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]I could be wrong, but I think there are still a lot of resentments left over from WWII.

oh yeah. every Koreans i meet do not view current Japan as the same Japan during WW2, but still has something to be angry about JPN, mostly their reluctance to admit their part in atrocities.

Quote[/b] ]I don't understand that at all. Most of the people from WWII are either dead or living in a retirement home. Today's Japan isn't anything like WWII Japan.

...

I think

True. I don't think there are any big problems with current generation, but as always, there are fringe of people who think Pacific war was the great war against US Imperialists

Quote[/b] ]I finally picked up a copy of that National Geographic with the article on Korea and the DMZ. Very interesting. It's strange, that in spite of all the nuclear rhetoric coming out of Pyongyang, that there seems to be a slow but steady movement towards more cross border travel and understanding.

one of the break through within last 5 yrs in that peninsula was that SK and NK decided to at least give a shot at economic transaction. a long time ago, it would have been unthinkable, but now, there are SK people visiting NK resort areas under strict guidelines.

of course, NK, being an ass, occasionally fires a couple of rounds, but usually gets their ass kicked by SK soldiers.

[Othin 0]

Since I've been out for a bit, I'll just reply to the whole thread

The U.S. in no way wants a war with North Korea. There is no doubt in anyones mind that it would be a horribly bloody affair and though the U.S. and her allies would "win" in the end, it would leave the ROK, DPRK, and our Army and Marines devestated.

The real kicker to this whole thing is that no side can trust the other. There is no historical precedent set by either side for holding up their end of the bargain. The U.S. (and everyone else involved) did not hold up their end of the bargain with the reactors and fuel oil. The DPRK obviously didn't hold up their end since we now have their admittance to working on a nuclear program.

See, the problem from the U.S. perspective is that Kim Jong Il is still in power. Congress figured that it was a tottering regime and would fall. Their thought process was that if it was going to fall, why should they expend money on fuel oil and reactors. Unfortunetly no one figured that Kim Jong Il would gleefully starve his own people into levels unseen outside of Africa. Our bad. To refute an earlier statement in this thread that North Koreans are trained to hate Americans. That is mostly incorrect. Most North Koreans are poorly educated, impoverished, and hungry. They hate Americans because thats the status quo. Wake up, love the great leader, hate the Americans, sweep the porch, and call it a night. The military is a different matter of course.

It is also widely held that Seol would be rubble within a few hours after the onset of war from the bajillion artillery pieces that the DPRK has pointing south. There is no possible way to evacuate a city that size when there is basically one highway and two rail lines running out of it. There is no way to protect those people short of developing some kind of magic shield that turns artillery shells into starcraft mugs.

The North Korean nukes. I'm more worried about every nuclear power plant in the U.S. exploding simultaneously then a North Korean Taepo Dong hitting the west coast. Though now that I'm living in Japan, there is definately a higher awareness of what they could do.

China. China is the supposed wild card. Personally I think if it did come to war the DPRK would find itself suddenly without the help of China. To what purpose would it serve China to support NK?

The very last thing China wants is a nuclear peninsula. If the DPRK is allowed to continue reprocessing the spent fuel rods and keeps the nuke(s) they have then it is going to spark off an arms race in the region. South Korea will surely follow, and Japan wouldn't be far behind.

China also knows that ultimately the DPRK would lose in a conflict. For some reason China's military has the reputation of being this great untouchable giant that is now the counter-weight to the American military machine. They will do whatever they can to avoid direct conflict with the U.S. since they know that they would come away with no victory, and a tarnished international repuation (supporting King Jong Il).

China is going about things the right way at this point in my opinon. By acting as a facilitator between the U.S. and the DPRK they show that they possess experienced statesmen and that they are taking a proactive interest in their corner of the world.

So where does this leave us? With the military might of the U.S. balanced against the sheer manpower of the DPRK? Unfortunetly not, as in every other major turning point in history, things are going to be decided by the personalities of a few people. You can get your own take away from that...

I can't wait until we go to Ulchi Focus Lens. It will be interesting to see how the South Koreans work. Everything I know about them military wise is second hand. Besides, I want to hit port in Chinhae. Everyone tells me I have to buy blankets there??? Guess I'll have to wait and see.

PS

[ralphwiggum 6]

great to see you back Othin.

and your summary is basically what most people should know.

[hellfish6 7]

Copied and moved my own post from the Iraq thread to here...

Quote[/b] ]

Quote (RalphWiggum @ July 25 2003,18:36)

Quote (Akira @ July 25 2003,23:43)

It looks like Japan will be sending about 1000 combat engineers for "transport and construction duties." Hopefully, their first job will be the civilian infrastructure.

although my post will be offtopic this is a big change in Japan's miltary and constitutional perspective. their military is for defense use only, and cannot be deployed outside of the Japan. however, with this event, seems like they are trying to change their constitution or bend it.

edit: and yes, they showed Japanese congress members pushing each other around with regards to this issue on local news just right now.

This is continuing in a slightly off-topic vein, but we can thank North Korea for Japan's military reforms. Several years ago the NKs launched a ballistic missile or two over Japan. This forced the Japanese to come to the realization that they needed to have a rapid response and forward deployment capability. Under the current constitution, Japan can't assist the US and South Korea in the event of a war because North Korea would have to directly attack Japan first, even if Japan's very existence was imminently threatened.

Nevermind the fact that an attack on South Korea by the North would totally destroy the Japanese economy (with their heavy investments in the Peninsula) and a reunified Korea under Kim Jong-Il would be a major concern for Japan. Japan would have to sit on the sidelines and passively watch their entire way of life collapse all because they cannot defend their interests without being attacked first.

Koizumi, the current Japanese PM is attempting to reform the law for this very reason, and the Japanese deployments to Cambodia and Iraq are the opening stages of those reforms. Expect to see combat units deployed under UN command within 10 years.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Koizumi, the current Japanese PM is attempting to reform the law for this very reason, and the Japanese deployments to Cambodia and Iraq are the opening stages of those reforms. Expect to see combat units deployed under UN command within 10 years.

Now let's see if we can't get our beloved Chia-dictator to keep his hand off the button for a decade.

[Die Alive 0]

@ July 26 2003,09:14)]

Koizumi, the current Japanese PM is attempting to reform the law for this very reason, and the Japanese deployments to Cambodia and Iraq are the opening stages of those reforms. Expect to see combat units deployed under UN command within 10 years.

Now let's see if we can't get our beloved Chia-dictator to keep his hand off the button for a decade.

I think he'll do something stupid, like blow one up underwater off the coast of N Korea, or underground, just to let the world know that he has them.

-=Die Alive=-

[Schoeler 0]

Othin, that's basically my assessment of the whole matter as well. I think China is striving for a peaceful solution, but they certainly won't support a nuclear North Korea, so if it comes to war, they'll wash their hands of Kim Jong Il, or maybe even support the U.N. effort somehow.

The problem is that the U.S. waited too long to do anything about this situation, and is still stalling somewhat. In the meantime, Kim has ratcheted things up to a high tension point where one wrong shot across the DMZ, a lost patrol, an overflight or naval duel, could spark war. Plus, he's crazy enough to think he can win, and start a war on purpose in my opinion.

The whole situation is a giant mess right now. In fact its so bad, things are kinda being hushed up about it, but experts interviewed by the media so far, have a very grim outlook.

[ralphwiggum 6]

And just for a "friendly" reminder, today was the 50ths yr of cease-fire. notice that it's not peace agreement. it's ceasefire.

[PitViper 0]

The Koreans I associated with in Korea became visibly perturbed when we spoke of the Japanese and their past on the Korean peninsula.

Quote[/b] ]Ulchi Focus Lens

wow.. Haven't heard that name in years

Personally, I don't think it is as tense as Schoeler makes it out to be.  There was all kinds of crap happening when I was there and we never went to war. The situation has not changed fundamentally.

[Schoeler 0]

I've got a good friend living in Seoul right now who says it's very tense over there. How could things be fundamentally the same, when the North is clearly defying the world and a hell of a lot of recent agreements by developing nuclear weapons? We just fought a war over proliferation, and here we have a clear and definitive example of just such a threat. North Korea, far and above Iraq is an obvious threat to regional and U.S. security. The world will not tolerate a nation and a dictator with nuclear weapons and an uninhibited willingness to sell them to the highest bidder.

[PitViper 0]

Quote[/b] ]How could things be fundamentally the same, when the North is clearly defying the world and a hell of a lot of recent agreements by developing nuclear weapons?

They have always been defying the world. We have never held them to their agreements. They have broken every agreement with impunity. The strategy of appeasing them with aid and oil has apparently failed.

Quote[/b] ]We just fought a war over proliferation, and here we have a clear and definitive example of just such a threat.

we lost the "war over proliferation" in North Korea decades ago by allowing ourselves to be pushed around by a brainless dictator. What can you do after the fact?

Quote[/b] ]North Korea, far and above Iraq is an obvious threat to regional and U.S. security.  The world will not tolerate a nation and a dictator with nuclear weapons and an uninhibited willingness to sell them to the highest bidder.

well.. about the only card we have left to play is containment. If he has a functional bomb,  the military option is out.  Funny... didn't they derive the weapons grade material from the reactor we gave them?  Brilliant idea that was  

[Schoeler 0]

They have always been defying the world. We have never held them to their agreements. They have broken every agreement with impunity. The strategy of appeasing them with aid and oil has apparently failed.

Yes, but now they are defying the world in such a manner as the world has to really pay attention to them. Now regional security is truly at stake. Also, what's to prevent Kim from selling a nuke to Islamic Jihad or Al-Qaeda?

Quote[/b] ]we lost the "war over proliferation" in North Korea decades ago by allowing ourselves to be pushed around by a brainless dictator. What can you do after the fact?

I don't know if that war has been lost or not, but I do believe the Bush Administration will act as if they can still win, which means war is still on the table as an option.

Quote[/b] ]well.. about the only card we have left to play is containment. If he has a functional bomb, the military option is out. Funny... didn't they derive the weapons grade material from the reactor we gave them? Brilliant idea that was

That brilliant idea came from our lovely Bill "I'm a pussy unless the polls support it" Clinton. Great idea, give a nation with nuclear ambitions a few reactors, that'll stop 'em!

If hea only has a handfulf of funtional bombs, they could try to take them out with airstrikes. I heard that this is indeed a plan that is being considered should negotiations fail.

[USSoldier11B 0]

By Martin Nesirky, Reuters

Quote[/b] ]SEOUL (July 31) - Top U.S. arms negotiator John Bolton described North Korean leader Kim Jong-il on Thursday as a tyrannical dictator who lived like royalty while jailing thousands and keeping many hungry in a ''hellish nightmare.''

In a tough speech guaranteed to provoke a blistering North Korean response, the undersecretary of state also said Kim was mistaken if he thought threats to proliferate nuclear weapons would weaken international resolve to halt Pyongyang's atomic ambitions through multilateral talks.

His comments come at a delicate time. Japan's Kyodo news agency said the United States, China and North Korea were discussing a proposal to hold three-way talks in early September.

''The last year has seen Kim Jong-il accelerate these programs, particularly on the nuclear front,'' he said in a speech to the East Asia Institute, referring to proliferation.

''The days of (North Korean) blackmail are over,'' he said. ''Kim Jong-il is dead wrong to think that developing nuclear weapons will improve his security.''

Bolton, widely seen as a hawk on North Korea, painted a stark picture of life for North Koreans with Kim at the helm.

He mentioned Kim's name some 40 times, and described him as one of the world's ''tyrannical rogue state leaders'' who needed to introduce sweeping reforms or face economic ruin.

''While he lives like royalty in Pyongyang, he keeps hundreds of thousands of his people locked in prison camps with millions more mired in abject poverty, scrounging the ground for food,'' he said.

''For many in North Korea, life is a hellish nightmare.''

North Korea is edging toward nuclear talks but has recently repeated its demand Washington drop its ''hostile policy.''

TWO OTHER TRACKS

Bolton, on a three-country tour that will take him next to Tokyo, said the United States and its allies were trying to persuade North Korea to start multilateral talks on ending its nuclear weapons program.

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell told Reuters in Washington on Wednesday that he saw the ''distinct possibility'' of more multilateral talks this year with North Korea, China and perhaps others aimed at resolving the crisis.

North Korea wants bilateral talks with Washington, a line Bolton described as a ''one-note piano concerto.'' He said it would be highly irresponsible for Washington to hold one-to-one talks.

He other tracks should be pursued too, including the U.N. Security Council taking ''appropriate and timely action.''

''Unfortunately, the Council is not playing the part it should,'' he said. ''To date, virtually nothing has happened.''

Bolton, who visited China before Seoul, said 11 countries would continue efforts to try to thwart North Korean exports of weapons and other illicit goods.

The countries are members of the ''Proliferation Security Initiative'' and are considering intercepting assets.

''Kim Jong-il would be wise to consider diversifying his export base to something besides weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles,'' Bolton said.

On the talks, he said Pyongyang had yet to agree on the format. South Korean security adviser Ra Jong-yil said it would be difficult for the United States, China and North Korea to hold talks in early August. They held inconclusive talks in April.

A U.S. combat team equipped with state-of-the-art fighting vehicles was arriving in South Korea on Thursday for training. The North's official KCNA news agency said it was ''a scout party to ignite another war of aggression.''

Wow, who peed in his cheerios? We already know that Kim Jong-Il is a thug.

[Balschoiw 0]

This doesn´t sound good.

It´s like dancing on a vulcano.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

North Korea disses Undersecretary John Bolton

Quote[/b] ]SEOUL, South Korea -- North Korea says it will still participate in six-way multilateral talks to resolve its ongoing nuclear row with the United States, but hit out at a senior American official, describing him as "human scum."

The rhetorical blast was aimed at U.S. Undersecretary of State John Bolton who last week referred to life in North Korea as a "hellish nightmare" and called North Korean leader Kim Jong Il a "tyrannical dictator."

In response, North Korea says it now won't deal with Bolton as an official for any dialogue.

"On the basis of a serious analysis of Bolton's outcries in the light of his political vulgarity and psychopathological condition, as they are quite different from the recent remarks of the U.S. president, we have decided not to consider him as an official of the U.S. administration any longer nor to deal with him," the North's official KCNA news agency quoted Pyongyang's foreign ministry spokesman as saying.

"Such human scum and bloodsucker is not entitled to take part in the talks."

But the spokesman said North Korea would still hold multi-nation talks on the nuclear issue.

"There is no change in our stand on holding the six-party talks including the bilateral talks between the DPRK and the U.S. for the peaceful settlement of the nuclear issue on the Korean peninsula," the spokesman said.

LOL, I love it.

[The Frenchman 0]

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2003....ex.html

Quote[/b] ]SEOUL, South Korea (CNN) -- A top official with the Hyundai group has committed suicide by jumping off a building that is part of the company's headquarters, South Korean media reports.

<snip>

Mong-hun was being investigated in connection with an alleged payment of hundreds of millions of dollars to North Korea in exchange for its holding a summit between South and North Korean leaders.

please, no jokes about Hyundai cars or products.

can you smell conspiracy here?

[Shashman 0]

I have a Hyundai and I'm very happy with it.  

[Tex -USMC- 0]

http://www.cnn.com/2003....ex.html

Quote[/b] ]SEOUL, South Korea (CNN) -- A top official with the Hyundai group has committed suicide by jumping off a building that is part of the company's headquarters, South Korean media reports.

<snip>

Mong-hun was being investigated in connection with an alleged payment of hundreds of millions of dollars to North Korea in exchange for its holding a summit between South and North Korean leaders.

please, no jokes about Hyundai cars or products.

can you smell conspiracy here?

yeah, he 'jumped' off the building. He just wasn't too sure about it and needed a 'friend' to 'convince' him.

[Balschoiw 0]

Thatcher: "Huhu Mr. Hamahito !"

Hamahito: " UHHH ! Big english lady !"

Thatcher: " You were nasty Mr. Hamahito !"

Hamahito: .....................................

Thatcher: "Wanna be my bady bady boy again ?"

Hamhito opens his window and jumps out.

Quote[/b] ]and needed a 'friend' to 'convince' him

well what could be worse than her ?

[turms 0]

well as far as i know,suicides becouse of dissapointing of the job is quite usual in the oriental culture.

[theavonlady 2]

Definitely making nukes.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2003....ex.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The highest ranking North Korean ever to defect has told members of the U.s. Congress that the North Korean regime of Kim Jong Il is unstable and should not be trusted to enter into an agreement to end its nuclear program.

Rep. Christopher Cox, R-Calif., said that Hwang Jang-yop, an 81-year-old former secretary of North Korea's ruling Worker's Party and secretary of foreign affairs, told members of the House Policy Committee, "the regime, albeit it takes great pains to show us it is stable, is in fact profoundly unstable."

Hwang, who defected to South Korea six years ago, was a mentor to Kim Jong Il, and was a close aide to his father, Kim Il Song.

"Perhaps you can say, 'Kim Jong Il, we'll leave you alone if you stop your nuclear program,'" Hwang told reporters after a closed door session with the House committee.

"I don't think there is righteousness in that. On top of that, I don't think any promise that is made by Kim Jong Il would be of any significance."

This week Hwang met with members of Congress and the Bush administration, including Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage and Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, to provide his insights on the North Korean regime.

"We find it very interesting and useful to talk to somebody with firsthand experience," State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said about Hwang's first visit to Washington. "Obviously, it helps our thinking."

Hwang criticized U.S. President George W. Bush's offer to provide North Korea a written security guarantee, if Kim promises to dismantle its nuclear weapons' program.

"I don't understand how we can actually guarantee the continued existence of a dictator that abuses human rights" Hwang said.

"It's almost like you Americans telling the terrorist organizations that 'if you promise not to terrorize people again, we will leave you alone.' That's not what the war on terror is about."

His comments come on the heels of reports that North Korea had told a visiting Chinese leader that it is prepared to hold a second round of multilateral talks to discuss its nuclear weapons program.

Wu Bangguo, China's parliament chief and the No. 2 official in the Communist Party, received the commitment from North Korea during a three-day visit to Pyongyang, according to reports by state media outlets in North Korea and China.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]North Korea says it has nuclear weapons

Pyongyang pulling out of

6-nation disarmament talks

SEOUL, South Korea - North Korea on Thursday announced for the first time that it has nuclear weapons and rejected moves to restart disarmament talks any time soon, saying it needs the weapons as protection against an increasingly hostile United States.

The communist state’s pronouncement dramatically raised the stakes in the two-year-old nuclear confrontation and posed a grave challenge to President Bush, who started his second term with a vow to end North Korea’s nuclear program through six-nation talks.

“We ... have manufactured nukes for self-defense to cope with the Bush administration’s ever more undisguised policy to isolate and stifle the (North),†the North Korean Foreign Ministry said in a statement carried by the state-run Korean Central News Agency.

Like most North Korean statements, the claim could not be independently verified. North Korea expelled the last U.N. nuclear monitors in late 2002 and has never tested a nuclear bomb, though international officials have said for years the country is believed to have one or two nuclear bombs and enough fuel for several more.

“The North Koreans have no reason to believe that anyone wants to attack them,†she told the Netherlands’ RTL TV in an interview while on a trip through Europe. “They have been told they can have multilateral security assurances if they will make the important decision to give up their nuclear weapons program.â€

Previously, North Korea reportedly told U.S. negotiators in private talks that it had nuclear weapons and might test one of them. The North’s U.N. envoy told The Associated Press last year that the country had “weaponized†plutonium from its pool of 8,000 nuclear spent fuel rods. Those rods contained enough plutonium for several bombs.

North critical of 'hostile' U.S. policy

But Thursday’s statement was North Korea’s first public acknowledgment that it has nuclear weapons.

North Korea’s “nuclear weapons will remain (a) nuclear deterrent for self-defense under any circumstances,†the ministry said, adding that Washington’s alleged attempt to topple Pyongyang’s regime “compels us to take a measure to bolster its nuclear weapons arsenal in order to protect the ideology, system, freedom and democracy chosen by its people.â€

Since 2003, the United States, the two Koreas, China, Japan and Russia have held three rounds of talks in Beijing aimed at persuading the North to abandon nuclear weapons development in return for economic and diplomatic rewards. No significant progress has been made.

A fourth round scheduled for last September was canceled when North Korea refused to attend, citing what it called a “hostile†U.S. policy.

In recent weeks, hopes had risen that North Korea might return to the six-nation talks, especially after Bush refrained from any direct criticism of North Korea when he started his second term last month.

On Thursday, North Korea said it decided not to rejoin such talks any time soon after carefully studying Bush’s inaugural and State of the Union speeches and recent comments by Rice, who labeled North Korea one of the “outposts of tyranny.â€

Senior U.S. officials “have declared it as their final goal to terminate the tyranny, defined the DPRK, too, as an ’outpost of tyranny’ and blustered that they would not rule out the use of force when necessary,†the North said. “This deprived the DPRK of any justification to participate in the six-party talks.â€

Still, North Korea said it retained its “principled stand to solve the issue through dialogue and negotiations and its ultimate goal to denuclearize the Korean Peninsula remain unchanged.â€

Such a comment has widely been interpreted as North Korea’s negotiating tactic to get more economic and diplomatic concessions from the United States before joining any crucial talks.

In Japan, the top government spokesman said he wanted to confirm Pyongyang’s intentions.

“They have used this sort of phrasing every so often. They didn’t say anything particularly new,†Chief Cabinet Secretary Hiroyuki Hosoda told a regular news conference.

For months, North Korea has lashed out at what it calls U.S. attempts to demolish the totalitarian regime of leader Kim Jong Il and meddle in the human rights situation in the North. Washington has said it wants to resolve the nuclear talks through dialogue.

Bush tones down rhetoric

In his Jan. 20 inaugural speech, Bush vowed that his new administration would not shrink from “the great objective of ending tyranny†around the globe.

In his State of the Union address earlier this month, Bush only mentioned North Korea in one sentence, saying Washington was “working closely with governments in Asia to convince North Korea to abandon its nuclear ambitions.â€

Bush’s tone was in stark contrast to three years ago, when he branded North Korea part of an “axis of evil†with Iran and Iraq, raising hopes of a positive response from North Korea.

The nuclear crisis erupted in October 2002 when U.S. officials accused North Korea of running a secrete uranium-enrichment program in violation of international treaties. Washington and its allies cut off free fuel oil shipments for the impoverished country under a 1994 deal with the United States.

North Korea retaliated by quitting the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty in early 2003 and restarting its plutonium-based nuclear weapons program, which had been frozen under the 1994 agreement.

Link

The Crazy has returned. I swear...everytime the world turns its attention a little away from Korea...Ol' Kim does something to return the attention to himself.