Ofp's m2a2 bradley in the light of the iraq war

[theavonlady 2]

There are a number of old threads that discuss some of these points but I thought that it would be good to start from a clean slate.

Looking at the news over the past few weeks and reading ebedded reporter's reports from the field, it seems as if OFP's Bradley model leaves much to be desired from the working version out in the field.

In OFP, the Bradley seems too frail, easily disabled by an RPG. I've seen reporters reports thanking their stars that they're in a Bradley against RPGs.

Also mentioned is that RPGs are all amphibious (in one convoluted way or another), whereas OFP's sinks like lead.

Now we can extend this topic to cover OFP's M113s and BMPs, too. Or maybe OFP's problem is that RPGs are too strong or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

Well, that's why your participation would be appreciated.

[vade_101 0]

Its that missing cargo proxy that bugs me, there are 7 seats, but you can only fit 6 guys in, that means you can't build missions based on the real composition of a mech inf unit.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (vade_101 @ April 08 2003,15:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its that missing cargo proxy that bugs me, there are 7 seats, but you can only fit 6 guys in, that means you can't build missions based on the real composition of a mech inf unit.<span id='postcolor'>

Don't be silly! That extra seat is for the embedded reporter.

[Guest]

Just curious ('cos I don't know at all) but could it be anything to do with the fact that CWC is set in 1985, and currently it's 2003 (I think)? Just a thought.....I don't know the M2A2 specs at all....

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Leone @ April 08 2003,15:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just curious ('cos I don't know at all) but could it be anything to do with the fact that CWC is set in 1985, and currently it's 2003 (I think)?   Just a thought.....I don't know the M2A2 specs at all....<span id='postcolor'>

I also thought about that. In which case, are there a set of more up-to-date APC addons that reflect improvements or protective armor that has since been added?

Again, I'm hoping to hear from some military Mister Know It Alls that can assess this accurately.

[whisperFFW06 0]

The Bradley currently used in Iraq have AFAIK few in common with OFP ones.

Today Brad's are at least ODS Mods M2A2 (Operation Desert Storm, a modified M2A2 from the experience of Iarq first conflict).

It has additionnal applique armor and can be fitted with ERA boxes (I think I've seen some in video footage, but I'm really not sure they are ERA boxes or anything else).

Since 1995, Bushmaster cannon has received some M919 APFSDS ammunition, a great enhancement of the previous ammo. I don't know if the fielding of M919 has been generalized to entire Regiments since.

Current RHAe values are confidential, and I didn't foud tests results against RPG.

On a sidenote, RPG have evolved too, and it all depends on which type of RPG Bradley are currently facing. If it is old generation, they could resist the shot.

Whis'

[GrimmDraco 0]

Well, avon lady, I must agree with you, being as I am a Bradley Linebacker Crewmember, the in game version does leave much to me desired. As for that point on the year of the game model and the current ones, theres the problem, the M2A2 was not around in 1985, the M2A1 was. tho similar, they are NOT the same.  I'm actually in an M6 Linebacker which is the more advanced, ADA vehicle. it carries the standard 25mm Bushmaster, the 7.62 COAX but instead of the TOW launcher, it carries a SVML(stinger vehicle mounted launcher) which  holds 4 Stinger missiles. On the down side tho, it can only carry 2 passangers, as the other seats are taken up but stinger racks to reload the SVML. I think someone needs to rethink the M2A2 for OFP, having the animated TOW launcher, the working rear ramp. also, on another note, the current Bradleys, DO NOT float!!!

                                                   Just My 2 Cents,

                                                         GrimmDraco

P. S. the ERA boxes, are called "Hot Boxes" they are under the deck plates in the rear and allow faster reloading of the 25.

[whisperFFW06 0]

And, as I said here : http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....0;st=60 , I'm currently trying to build up M2A2 up to modern conventions (this should also include M2A3, but I have few information about them) for a modern online campaign, at the same time we try to normalize OFP vehicles datas.

This is very difficult, mainly because of my ignorance of the real thing and lack of sources

[whisperFFW06 0]

GrimmDraco, check PM plz

[Antichrist 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 08 2003,14:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Leone @ April 08 2003,15:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just curious ('cos I don't know at all) but could it be anything to do with the fact that CWC is set in 1985, and currently it's 2003 (I think)?   Just a thought.....I don't know the M2A2 specs at all....<span id='postcolor'>

I also thought about that. In which case, are there a set of more up-to-date APC addons that reflect improvements or protective armor that has since been added?

Again, I'm hoping to hear from some military Mister Know It Alls that can assess this accurately.<span id='postcolor'>

Well even with the new addons of modern APCs it still takes one RPG or LAW to take any of those out in OFP!

Should people started giving as much armour to them as to the T72 tank!

[PFC_Mike 2]

The M2A2 has a bundle of differences from the A1 and plain M2.

But if you are making a new one, please include these three features...

1. water in jerry cans and some baggage strapped to the side.

2. ability to put numbers and vehicle names on them like you could for the Nam Pack helicopters or the BAS_Soldier.

3. animated TOW launcher, has to be moved up from position next to turret to pos. above it to fire. Also maybe make older and newer types of TOW ammo?

You could possibly borrow the TOW model from MAAC+Marfy.

[GrimmDraco 0]

Ya know...the problem with RPG's I think, is not that they are to strong, but that the OFP engine doesnt allow the armor to react as it would in real life... As you may notice on the M1A1 the frong of the turret if sloped...this is so that rounds will deflect off and up. It works, Ive talked to some tankers. this is pretty much the same for the M2A2 in a way. the front of this vehicle is sloped...also, whis, the rounds you where talking about, the 919 round, is Depleted Uranium(spelling? ) its very powerful, I was informed that a few days ago, 2 M2A2's took out 5 T-72's with these rounds, it goes to show what they can do, seeing as the T-72 is very armored.

Questions?

GrimmDraco

[whisperFFW06 0]

But this points lead to the conclusion that I was wrong, APC are NOT overmodelled in OFP.

/me scratches his head.

Gotta get to really understand dammage model of OFP.

/me tries to find the thread where damage formula was posted.

Whis'

[Major Fubar 0]

Addons and mods discussion perhaps?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (GrimmDraco @ April 08 2003,16:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As you may notice on the M1A1 the front of the turret is sloped...this is so that rounds will deflect off and up. It works, Ive talked to some tankers. this is pretty much the same for the M2A2 in a way. the front of this vehicle is sloped...<span id='postcolor'>

Yes. I've read reports from reporters who frighteningly described RPGs bouncing off their Bradleys.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Yeah indeed.

I think it was Sigma-6 that came up with a formula that simulates real armour behaviour, but I am not sure how succesful that formula was, whether it needed tweaking and whether he did it for all tanks or just a few.

I hope he will be along shortly and help us out with this

[miles teg 1]

I'm not sure if you can talk about the armor GrimmDraco as I know alot of those things are kept classified, but it would seem to me that regular applique armor would not stop an RPG-7's which can penetrate a fairly large amount of armor. I assume that like the Israeli Zelda, that they have advanced reactive armor to stop RPG rounds. I've seen quite a few Bradleys on the news with small square panels that look alot like ERA. I'm actually amazed that we haven't lost more Bradleys during the incursions into the center of Baghdad. The Iraqi anti-tank teams must be really inept at staging tank ambushes as even the M1 tank can have it's tracks blown off and RPG shots from upper floors of buildings should be able to penetrate areas around the hatches and other areas of the M1. The Chechnyans were masters at tank killing during the various Russian assaults on the city of Grozny. Apparently the Iraqis really did not prepare very much for urban warfare in the same way that the Chechnyans did.

But that's good for us. Less casualties for American/British troops is a good thing.

At any rate, back to the addons... I really hope that someone does make a new Bradley with ERA, and the improved weapons. A scout version would also be cool along with desert textures and new animations.

Chris G.

[wacko 26]

well maybe this might help with finding specs of the armored Vehicle

just go here you can find just bout everything there.

but as far as a RPG taking out a M2A2 not a chance in hell when i comes to real life....only thing a RPG can do to a M2A2 is take its tracks out but that will take a good shot.

RPG's and LAW's are mainly used for light armored vehicles

M2A2 and M1 abrams are heavy armored vehicles

[whisperFFW06 0]

Well, I don't think basing everything on FAS would be very wise, many datas are missing (strangely, many US datas ), and I would prefer first hand information rather than web site, unless it is actual tests of M2A2 vs RPG, which as I said, I did not find on the web.

About the Brad vs RPG issue, it should be very varying, depending on M2 version, applique, ERA, etc... I don't see why RPG should not be able to shoot base M2.

Whis'

[ravendk 25]

well ill be damned

any way from what the birds in the woods sing there is a M2A2 on its way, but what do i know

[cam0flage 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It has additionnal applique armor and can be fitted with ERA boxes (I think I've seen some in video footage, but I'm really not sure they are ERA boxes or anything else).<span id='postcolor'>

I'm having hard time believing that ERA would be mounted on Bradleys, they would pose a big threat for dismounting mechanized infantry carried by the IFV.

The operational service and fire-range trials were successfully conducted in 1961 and immediately after it the RPG-7V was adopted by the Soviet Army (weight in the firing position: 6.3 kg; point blank range: 330 m; armor penetration: 130 mm at an angle of 60° from normal).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but as far as a RPG taking out a M2A2 not a chance in hell when i comes to real life....only thing a RPG can do to a M2A2 is take its tracks out but that will take a good shot.<span id='postcolor'>

Even though RPG-7V (I chose this weapon as an example, because I've seen it all the time in the hands of Iraqi soldiers) has a relatively low penetration value as can be seen from above, it sure does have a chance to cause big problems for an M2A2. A hit in the tower surely has a fair chance of damaging the targeting systems and TOW launcher.

[whisperFFW06 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (cam0flage @ April 08 2003,17:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It has additionnal applique armor and can be fitted with ERA boxes (I think I've seen some in video footage, but I'm really not sure they are ERA boxes or anything else).<span id='postcolor'>

I'm having hard time believing that ERA would be mounted on Bradleys, they would pose a big threat for dismounting mechanized infantry carried by the IFV.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, the mounting points for ERA boxes are present. Are they used, I don't know. But the option has been added and ask by the Army, so....

[whisperFFW06 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RavenDK @ April 08 2003,17:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">    well ill be damned  

any way from what the birds in the woods sing there is a M2A2 on its way, but what do i know   <span id='postcolor'>

That's EXCELLENT news

If I can ask, which version(s)? M6 too?

[reedkiller 0]

This depends a lot on the RPG type. The OFP RPGs are AT ones but there are Anti Personel RPGs, grenade launchers, motor launchers and many others that are counted as RPGs. The angle of attack and where it hits are also VERY important. A large proportion dont even explode especially when they are fired at short range

[hellfish6 7]

Maybe part of the problem is that AT weapons in OFP are too accurate. I think we've all hit moving BMPs from 2-300m with a LAW or RPG-29, right? I don't think this is very realistic. These rockets do not have the pinpoint accuracy that they have been modelled with.

Have any of you tried the LAWs from the SEB Nam Pack 2? Imagine my suprise and horror when I found out that they were modelled correctly... as a T-55 100m away charged down on my squad and my LAW veered off to the right.