elementary physics Inside the buildings, the AI falls through the floor/goes through walls

[mickeymen 322]

We all live with this problem for 10 years!

AI falls through the floor of the first floor and can lay prone and shoot you from under the floor!

AI goes through walls and can materialize behind you!

I, as a player, am terribly tired of enduring this, every time when, I come across it, it just breaks the feeling of the game(

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bQtJ-fmWlMlYR07tEIPfAw2bV0Dbgls2/view?usp=sharing

 

https://youtu.be/k-VaDBE1_WM

 

Every week/two weeks, I look at the Development Branch Changelog thread and I see only mountains of unnecessary garbage in the lists of updates, while such MEGA-shameful bugs go unnoticed!

I see that @BIS maintains this game, but continues to ignore this issue.

Other than that, Bohemia keeps selling and announcing endless DLCs (hello Spearhead 1944!), but no one is trying to fix such embarrassing bugs!

 

Hence the question - Why, for 10 years of the life of the game, it is impossible to solve a similar problems?

Maybe need alien technology? I don't know what to think. A decade of neglect is breaking my heart...

 

I see mods popping up trying to solve this problem. One mod that smooths this out is - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2904714255&searchtext=anti+wall+glitches

The question again arises, - why do some users try to solve the problem, but the official developers do not try?

 

I would like the community to support this ticket and get it noticed by the developers.

If it is not possible to implement, then I would like to know why it is not solvable.

 

A simple request, to everyone, to show at least some attention to this topic...

[kaject 22]

@mickeymen Isn't the issue in this video you've posted related to the wrong configuration of the building assets (looks like CUP mod with assets from A2OA?), so AI's detected "walk geometry" is lower than the visual part of the building model? Thus, that makes the AI clip through the floor?

 

As for AI clipping of walls and floors on other buildings - maybe that's also a problem of asset misconfiguration, so the engine interprets things incorrectly and AI acts accordingly?

 

Although, yes, I'd love to see AI improvements roadmap for Arma 3 at this time. However, the AI behavior C++ codebase modules for Arma 3 are probably so complex, messed up or highly undocumented, that @killzone_kid and @Dedmen cannot reach any kind of necessary productivity while working on them?

 

Maybe there's too much refactoring needed for A3's AI modules? Too many edge cases left uncovered, so if someone chooses to improve something, a big codebase rewrite is necessary?

 

We're missing too much context here to make a sound argument on why this is no longer a focus of improvement for Arma 3's development. Perhaps @killzone_kid @Dedmen @DnA or anybody else from the amazing BIS dev team could enlighten us?

 

That'd be very much appreciated, absolutely!

[lexx 1332]

20 hours ago, kaject said:

so AI's detected "walk geometry" is lower than the visual part of the building model?

Not the issue here. The RoadWay is above, I just checked the model. Issues like this can have plenty reasons. As far as I am aware, it can be from the terrain (small grid, too big grid), or the house is positioned too high or too low, or the collision detection of the ai failed, and once they walked through the geo, there is no way back for them, etc. etc... Look at the issues that are getting fixed for A3 - most of them are not super complex, which is why they are still getting fixed now. Everything related to AI is just a can of worms that will likely only cause more problems somewhere else.. and that's why it isn't touched anymore.

[kaject 22]

28 minutes ago, lexx said:

Not the issue here. The RoadWay is above, I just checked the model. Issues like this can have plenty reasons. As far as I am aware, it can be from the terrain (small grid, too big grid), or the house is positioned too high or too low, or the collision detection of the ai failed, and once they walked through the geo, there is no way back for them, etc. etc... Look at the issues that are getting fixed for A3 - most of them are not super complex, which is why they are still getting fixed now. Everything related to AI is just a can of worms that will likely only cause more problems somewhere else.. and that's why it isn't touched anymore.

 

Thanks for the explanation, provides me some insight into the situation at hand as I'm not knowledgeable that much with Arma modding.

 

I assume we can stop hoping some AI improvement to see the day as BIS now focuses on Enfusion's AI modules and other core modules for Arma 4 releases. Also, for upgrading Arma Reforger as a solid testbed for future development.

 

From a business perspective, naturally, this decision to scrap Real Virtuality 3 (RV3) engine and focus on Enfusion totally makes sense and I think it's probably for the best.

 

P.S. But I'd still like BIS to step in and publish an explanation on Arma 3's AI state, AI development halt reasons and the outlook going forward as A3 still serves as a solid platform for all the Creator DLCs coming in the nearby future.

[froggyluv 2130]

4 hours ago, kaject said:

 

Thanks for the explanation, provides me some insight into the situation at hand as I'm not knowledgeable that much with Arma modding.

 

I assume we can stop hoping some AI improvement to see the day as BIS now focuses on Enfusion's AI modules and other core modules for Arma 4 releases. Also, for upgrading Arma Reforger as a solid testbed for future development.

 

From a business perspective, naturally, this decision to scrap Real Virtuality 3 (RV3) engine and focus on Enfusion totally makes sense and I think it's probably for the best.

 

P.S. But I'd still like BIS to step in and publish an explanation on Arma 3's AI state, AI development halt reasons and the outlook going forward as A3 still serves as a solid platform for all the Creator DLCs coming in the nearby future.

 

 Thats why the AI team need to work closely with the model (buildings/landscape) designers - AI no mater how well coded need to work within the framework of the models and vice versa. Thats why when they outsourced the development of Tanoa -I could tell they had virtually no coordination with any understanding of AI. Hence those stilted hut buildings etc in which AI's s feet would be between the floor and the earth below and there are literally areas of some large towns that the AI simply cant traverse much like Sahrani in Arma 1. Hopefully theyve bettered the coordination between teams for reforger

[kaject 22]

14 hours ago, froggyluv said:

 

 Thats why the AI team need to work closely with the model (buildings/landscape) designers - AI no mater how well coded need to work within the framework of the models and vice versa. Thats why when they outsourced the development of Tanoa -I could tell they had virtually no coordination with any understanding of AI. Hence those stilted hut buildings etc in which AI's s feet would be between the floor and the earth below and there are literally areas of some large towns that the AI simply cant traverse much like Sahrani in Arma 1. Hopefully theyve bettered the coordination between teams for reforger

 

Well, BIS could've fixed all of the Tanoa building model + config issues in the post-release period, right? They didn't do that, right? I'm not very up-to-date in terms of this as I haven't been playing Arma 3 at the time Tanoa expansion was released. Could you enlighten us on the situation (if you recall)?

[pierremgi 4740]

Yes, we should always keep the context (map, mod) in mind.

As this section is Arma vanilla oriented, we can say there is not so many wall glitches for Altis, Stratis and vanilla map.

Most of the buildings have:

- walkable surfaces;

- are enterable or not;

- building positions (not all of them, some tiny shabby buildings or not enterable don't have any inside position);

- paths (inside). But this point can be more or less related to positions! You can have no path between several building positions, like in Tanoa hotel.

 

That said, AI paths can fails for multiple reasons. Just trying to make them move, without behavior context (no combat, no awareness of other unit(s)), we can find several issues like:

- sticking on balcony;

- stuttering at end of a (roof) ladder.

If you add any obstacle in a room (like chair or table), at AI predetermined path, you can ruin a move, even if the room is huge and AI could easily bypass the obstacle.

 

AIs falling through floors seems to me related to mods like CUP and middle East map, probably ported from Arma 1. I noticed that using the outstanding map of Takistan, never on Arma Vanilla.

 

I'm not a modder, so it could be interesting if someone, here, could add precisions about how LODs (geometry i guess) make possible glitches for AIs (and players?)

 

I remarked that the AIs are unable to pass through multiple ruins of nets/fences (designed as is), as players can do that easily. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1NlQC3y-TI

On the other hand, the AIs can pass through damaged walls/fences/nets if they are destroyed (not designed as ruins, but destroyed with a change for the building model).

Difficult to set a rule, just some observations on my side.

 

 

[kaject 22]

On 7/19/2023 at 11:43 AM, pierremgi said:

Yes, we should always keep the context (map, mod) in mind.

As this section is Arma vanilla oriented, we can say there is not so many wall glitches for Altis, Stratis and vanilla map.

Most of the buildings have:

- walkable surfaces;

- are enterable or not;

- building positions (not all of them, some tiny shabby buildings or not enterable don't have any inside position);

- paths (inside). But this point can be more or less related to positions! You can have no path between several building positions, like in Tanoa hotel.

 

That said, AI paths can fails for multiple reasons. Just trying to make them move, without behavior context (no combat, no awareness of other unit(s)), we can find several issues like:

- sticking on balcony;

- stuttering at end of a (roof) ladder.

If you add any obstacle in a room (like chair or table), at AI predetermined path, you can ruin a move, even if the room is huge and AI could easily bypass the obstacle.

 

AIs falling through floors seems to me related to mods like CUP and middle East map, probably ported from Arma 1. I noticed that using the outstanding map of Takistan, never on Arma Vanilla.

  

I'm not a modder, so it could be interesting if someone, here, could add precisions about how LODs (geometry i guess) make possible glitches for AIs (and players?)

 

I remarked that the AIs are unable to pass through multiple ruins of nets/fences (designed as is), as players can do that easily. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1NlQC3y-TI

On the other hand, the AIs can pass through damaged walls/fences/nets if they are destroyed (not designed as ruins, but destroyed with a change for the building model).

Difficult to set a rule, just some observations on my side.

 

 

 

We won't be able to solve AI's dynamic or predefined pathfinding issues without access to the Arma 3 source code, I bet. This probably can't be solved via configs.

 

It's been over 10 years since the Arma 3 Alpha's release and semi-fixing the AI seems like a lost cause. Time to move on.

 

Where? Well, Reforger, Arma 4 even? Time flies.

[mickeymen 322]

On 7/17/2023 at 5:19 PM, kaject said:

@mickeymen Isn't the issue in this video you've posted related to the wrong configuration of the building assets (looks like CUP mod with assets from A2OA?),

The video I'm showing has nothing to do with CUP. This is a Sefrou-Ramal, on this screenshot I use Hellanmaa, map that uses ONLY vanilla assets.

 

On 7/17/2023 at 5:19 PM, kaject said:

so AI's detected "walk geometry" is lower than the visual part of the building model? Thus, that makes the AI clip through the floor?

So you want to blame the maps makers for this problem and say that BIS is not involved!?

What about vanilla maps? The same will happen there too. 

You probably forgot, that in any vanilla map the AI will also go through walls, if the AI doesn't fall through the floor of the first floor, so that's because in vanilla maps, there are almost no buildings with a high ground floor.

 

On 7/17/2023 at 5:19 PM, kaject said:

As for AI clipping of walls and floors on other buildings - maybe that's also a problem of asset misconfiguration, so the engine interprets things incorrectly and AI acts accordingly?

No, now I can clearly see that you are blaming the map makers for this problem😁

 

On 7/18/2023 at 2:10 PM, lexx said:

Everything related to AI is just a can of worms that will likely only cause more problems somewhere else.. and that's why it isn't touched anymore.

 

I sure, you making it difficult... I believe, that the problem of AI can be solved without AI, Yes exactly!

 You do don't believe me - look at the mod - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2904714255&searchtext=anti+wall+glitches

This is not an AI mod, but still solves this problem. Just a one mod maker had such an intention to fix it and I would like @Bohemia Interactive, too, to have the desire to correct such embarrassing mistakes in their game also.

I would stop at this mod and forget about this problem, but the mod adds some issues, in other aspects, that I, as a player, would like to avoid.

In addition, the mod does not work with the floor. This only works for walls.

 

It seems to me - It is enough to create collisions, that AI will not be able to physically ignore.

Right now in the game the AI ignores any collision - it will go through other AI, and it will go through vehicles, buildings and containers. Going through it all, he won't be physically stopped.

This is because AI has no collisions with the outside world. All that is needed is to enable physical collision for the AI, at least inside buildings, and no more AI programming)

 

Well, so that the AI, just like the player, was not able to physically get inside some objects. It's more a matter of customizing game objects,  than new AI programming.

 

On 7/23/2023 at 12:23 PM, kaject said:

It's been over 10 years since the Arma 3 Alpha's release and semi-fixing the AI seems like a lost cause. Time to move on.

 

Where? Well, Reforger, Arma 4 even? Time flies.

And what should we do? Play an even more buggy Reforger which doesn't even have 5% content from Arma3? Or wait next 10 years for Arma4 to come out and get it bugged?

Unfortunately, the prospects are not at all bright 😞

Already today we have Arma3, and already today there is a ton of content for that!

I'd rather have such embarrassing bugs solved in Arma3, here and now, instead after of a decade of new hopes, for new games...

 

[froggyluv 2130]

1 hour ago, mickeymen said:

Right now in the game the AI ignores any collision - it will go through other AI, and it will go through vehicles, buildings and containers. Going through it all, he won't be physically stopped.

 

So I have some problems with Mount & Blade Bannerlord as far as the shallow husk of anything resembling strategy (Kingdom) but i gotta give them props -their AI is extremely responsive. Last night i had a 1000 AI battle play out - this new modern AI system has the AI general call out different strategies for the troops like they'll spilt their Cavalry in half and send them to hide in flanking positions and then advance Infantry and Archers in different ways depending on terrain. They'll even tactically retreat to meet up with reinforcements etc. Now to have 1000 AI have the ability to literally adjust to every swing, approaching horsemen, need to switch to different weapon - its impressive to say the least that these AI never really mess up. I'm talking if horde against horde and you attack from the rear some will turn and use the exact block they need to as you approach, and then turn around and commence their fighting. I was looking out for AI on AI collision and it just doesn't happen. Now you might see like an arm of a unit kinda ghost thru another AI if they run into each other going different directions, but any more than that and you can clearly see them bump. The robust physics with some really outstanding animations including transitional are to be admired

[kaject 22]

11 hours ago, mickeymen said:

The video I'm showing has nothing to do with CUP. This is a Sefrou-Ramal, on this screenshot I use Hellanmaa, map that uses ONLY vanilla assets.

 

So you want to blame the maps makers for this problem and say that BIS is not involved!?

What about vanilla maps? The same will happen there too. 

You probably forgot, that in any vanilla map the AI will also go through walls, if the AI doesn't fall through the floor of the first floor, so that's because in vanilla maps, there are almost no buildings with a high ground floor.

 

No, now I can clearly see that you are blaming the map makers for this problem😁

 

 

I sure, you making it difficult... I believe, that the problem of AI can be solved without AI, Yes exactly!

 You do don't believe me - look at the mod - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2904714255&searchtext=anti+wall+glitches

This is not an AI mod, but still solves this problem. Just a one mod maker had such an intention to fix it and I would like @Bohemia Interactive, too, to have the desire to correct such embarrassing mistakes in their game also.

I would stop at this mod and forget about this problem, but the mod adds some issues, in other aspects, that I, as a player, would like to avoid.

In addition, the mod does not work with the floor. This only works for walls.

 

It seems to me - It is enough to create collisions, that AI will not be able to physically ignore.

Right now in the game the AI ignores any collision - it will go through other AI, and it will go through vehicles, buildings and containers. Going through it all, he won't be physically stopped.

This is because AI has no collisions with the outside world. All that is needed is to enable physical collision for the AI, at least inside buildings, and no more AI programming)

 

Well, so that the AI, just like the player, was not able to physically get inside some objects. It's more a matter of customizing game objects,  than new AI programming.

 

And what should we do? Play an even more buggy Reforger which doesn't even have 5% content from Arma3? Or wait next 10 years for Arma4 to come out and get it bugged?

 Unfortunately, the prospects are not at all bright 😞

Already today we have Arma3, and already today there is a ton of content for that!

I'd rather have such embarrassing bugs solved in Arma3, here and now, instead after of a decade of new hopes, for new games...

 

 

It is evident that Arma 3 AI C++ core codebase will not be worked on anymore. With A3's 10th anniversary coming, there's no AI roadmap or updates happening. Thus, we can safely assume that we can simply forget about it and stop 

 

Now, as for Arma 4 and Arma Reforger, since everything is being rewritten from scratch.

 

And rewriting slowly, with a more thought-out approach for scalability and flexibility, I believe there is hope for extremely modularity in AI configuration, allowing for other people to easily build on top or modify or replace existing AI behaviors with different behavior profiles.

 

So on and so forth.

 

With new modular and more thoughtful gameplay mechanics, Arma Reforger seems to be shaping up real nice.

 

Have you ever worked in software engineering, though?

Complex software systems such as game engines, require an immense amount of time, constant rewriting and so on to get it right for the future.

 

I believe BIS is going the right way here, taking the time to perfect the core mechanics.

 

And when you have very strong fundamentals, it's much easier to build further because you no longer have this mental trail of technical debt constantly sitting on your head and possibly making you less productive.

[mickeymen 322]

On 8/19/2023 at 11:19 AM, kaject said:

 

It is evident that Arma 3 AI C++ core codebase will not be worked on anymore. With A3's 10th anniversary coming, there's no AI roadmap or updates happening. Thus, we can safely assume that we can simply forget about it and stop 

This sounds sad. Who informed you about this?

 

In addition, I already wrote above that this problem can be solved without AI

 

Quote

 

I believe, that the problem of AI can be solved without AI, Yes exactly!

 You do don't believe me - look at the mod - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2904714255&searchtext=anti+wall+glitches

This is not an AI mod, but still solves this problem. Just a one mod maker had such an intention to fix it and I would like @Bohemia Interactive, too, to have the desire to correct such embarrassing mistakes in their game also.

I would stop at this mod and forget about this problem, but the mod adds some issues, in other aspects, that I, as a player, would like to avoid.

In addition, the mod does not work with the floor. This only works for walls.

 

It seems to me - It is enough to create collisions, that AI will not be able to physically ignore.

Right now in the game the AI ignores any collision - it will go through other AI, and it will go through vehicles, buildings and containers. Going through it all, he won't be physically stopped.

This is because AI has no collisions with the outside world. All that is needed is to enable physical collision for the AI, at least inside buildings, and no more AI programming)

 

Well, so that the AI, just like the player, was not able to physically get inside some objects. It's more a matter of customizing game objects,  than new AI programming.

 

 

 

On 8/19/2023 at 11:19 AM, kaject said:

Now, as for Arma 4 and Arma Reforger, since everything is being rewritten from scratch.

Man, to be honest, unfortunately, I don't even want to hear about it(

 

Everything that I see after 1.3 years Reforger life, to put it mildly, does not cause my delight. It looks very weak and so buggy.

Thus, I understand, that it will take at least another decade to create Arma4, and then polish it.

I live here and now and at the moment, what will happen in 10 years is less important for me and I would like today to see a normal Arma (without teleportation of physical objects, through other physical object) Today, and not tomorrow, not in dreams.

Sure, that 99% of users want the same today, and not in 10 years.

 

All that I think - If @BIS continues to announce and sell DLC, if @BIS continues to service the game, if @BIS promises to service it, then such shameful mistakes should not be in the game!
We all deserve it, thanks to the dedication to this game for 10 years!

I'm 100% sure if the studio wanted to, this problem could be solved, but they simply don't have this desire.

They are too passionate about their sales, on endless sales.

All I hope for when I open this thread, is to bring the community together and have a collective impact. Then we have a chance...

[pierremgi 4740]

5 hours ago, mickeymen said:

Man, to be honest, unfortunately, I don't even want to hear about it(

 

Everything that I see after 1.3 years Reforger life, to put it mildly, does not cause my delight. It looks very weak and so buggy.

Thus, I understand, that it will take at least another decade to create Arma4, and then polish it.

I live here and now and at the moment, what will happen in 10 years is less important for me and I would like today to see a normal Arma (without teleportation of physical objects, through other physical object) Today, and not tomorrow, not in dreams.

Sure, that 99% of users want the same today, and not in 10 years.

 

 

Absolutely right

 

5 hours ago, mickeymen said:

All that I think - If @BIS continues to announce and sell DLC, if @BIS continues to service the game, if @BIS promises to service it, then such shameful mistakes should not be in the game!

We all deserve it, thanks to the dedication to this game for 10 years!

...

All I hope for when I open this thread, is to bring the community together and have a collective impact. Then we have a chance...

 

BI devs could at least answer about this issue. It's not so time consuming!

@mickeymen About forum new topic: You could "poll" a question instead of elaborating "content" for this topic. Not sure it's efficient, but who knows?

 

[kaject 22]

14 hours ago, mickeymen said:

This sounds sad. Who informed you about this?

 

In addition, I already wrote above that this problem can be solved without AI

 

Isn't it obvious that A3 AI won't be worked on as the new focus is upcoming Arma titles on Enfusion engine?

 

I thought this was pretty obvious since 2018/19 when Arma 3 AI refactoring stopped altogether, all of a sudden (it was going into the correct direction at the time. Oh well).

[mickeymen 322]

On 8/21/2023 at 5:18 PM, kaject said:

 

Isn't it obvious that A3 AI won't be worked on as the new focus is upcoming Arma titles on Enfusion engine?

 

I thought this was pretty obvious since 2018/19 when Arma 3 AI refactoring stopped altogether, all of a sudden (it was going into the correct direction at the time. Oh well). 

 

Yes it's obvious, that's exactly why I said

On 8/21/2023 at 2:33 AM, mickeymen said:

this problem can be solved without AI

 

[kaject 22]

On 8/31/2023 at 11:06 PM, mickeymen said:

  

Yes it's obvious, that's exactly why I said

 

 

Yeah, sure, any problem can be solved without AI. /s

 

Do you have 1 or more tickets registered on feedback.bistudio.com issues tracker?

 

I don't think the solution is that simple, especially the way you put it.

If it was so simple and straightforward (with 100% backwards compatibility etc.), it would've been solved already.

[mickeymen 322]

On 9/2/2023 at 9:35 AM, kaject said:

I don't think the solution is that simple, especially the way you put it.

 

No need to think, just open the mod and see it as example

If one non-professional did this, then what can 2-3 professionals do, if they wish..

[mickeymen 322]

On 9/13/2023 at 1:26 AM, mickeymen said:

No need to think, just open the mod and see it as example

If one non-professional did this, then what can 2-3 professionals do, if they wish..

 

I would hope that this mod would fix this problem and work smoothly, but unfortunately this is not the case yet.

Maybe someone is interested in how it works and what problems it has. I created several videos and descriptions for them:

This mod is absolutely great, but it has a few major problems:

 

 

If "Recalculate AI Path at Bad Location" is enabled, then some AI units or even entire ai-squads will get stuck on the map, ignoring their waypoints -

 

If "Recalculate AI Path at Bad Location" is disable, then the problem with waypoints disappears -

 

but another problem arises - AI will endlessly ram the walls or other objects

 

 

It seems to me that today, Arma3 is dying. None of the developers care anymore about the problems of that game. Today, the main task of @BIS is Arma Reforger, as well as squeezing the last money out of Arma3...

This would not be a bad decision, if Arma3 had a fairly solid and smooth look, but when I see, after 10 years the AI in the game, it's half-functional state, I simply refuse to understand this.

For this reason, we (the Arma3 community) are left alone, only the tricks of individual modders can partially save us, there is no other hope...