Vss vintorez

[akm74 1]

Hello Guys.

I did this model for myself, so its not real add-on (hmm, it is actually). I need someone to test ballistics for me. If someone can help me to config this weapon close to real one, I will appreciate it.

VSS VINTORES BETA

[blackdog~ 0]

[black__bird 0]

begining testing, will get back to you on it, want it posted here or PM'd to you?

[akm74 1]

just post it here

[black__bird 0]

First glance testing completed. i like this weapon a lot.

Test Results(first round of testing)

83rds to kill Hummer

7-8 rounds to kill civilian car

very accurate at all distances at Range SFG on Phaeden Island(not sure the distance, probably around 500-600m)

semi-auto round meter reads BCC, full-auto reads VSS full-auto

exhausted all rounds at a Mi-24 pilot at 100m, negative kill(used 100rounds)-distance 100mbut but but

one shot kills to 500m(target was a Russian soldier armed with an AK-74)

recoil is minimal even when firing in full-auto, but nearly non-existant in semi-auto mode

Medel and textures are excellent

is it possible to change the reticle to have a red sight instead of black, unsure on VSS but the dragunov had an IR illuminated reticle

this is all i have for this round of testing, my ext set of testing will have to wait til i can get a friend of mine to check it with me on a MP game.

[Acecube 0]

Well I didn't test it yet but so much about recoil. I couldn't find a lot about the ballistics of the real life weapon except that it got a bullet weight of approx. 16 grammes. This leads to the conclusion that the recoil is bit stronger than a .45ACP. (like for example a Tommy-gun or the new HK-UMP). In game I would put it somwhere between AK74 and PK recoilwise. On the other hand please don't forget following important things!!!:

- The bullet speed for all three different ammo-types for this gun is 290m/s. So please put this in the config where it says initspeed (initSpeed=290).

- Accuracy is said to be about 3" at 100meters. Therefore (to make it easyer) 6"@200m; 9"@300m and 12"@400meters. So the accuracy (dispersion) shouldn't be better than that of the standard OFP-M16 or AK74.

Enemy (AI) would probably not hear anything of the gun due to it's very good silencing and subsonic ammo. (VSS=HK-MP5 for compareing loudness)

And now I'll give it a go

EDIT: I tested it. The model looks brilliant. Very nice but not too detailed. You might just change following things:

- Dispersion (see above) should be same for single and full auto because somtimes you're on full auto mode an fire single shots which then have a higher dispersion. (which is annoying and unlogical)

- Full auto rate should be slightly higher I quess someting like 600 round/minute.

- Bullet drop (see above) initspeed is on 600 in your .cpp it should be 290.

- I don't know if the original scope on the VSS is zoomable (but I seriously doubt it)!? If you make it fixed then you can accomodate the scale on the reticle and it would be a ranging help like in reallife.

- The AI should engage to max. 400meters

- I believe "distancezoommin" and "distancezoommax" would be set to 100 both.

- Hitpower is way lesser than a M16 by real life specs, so better go for "hit=7" instead of "hit=20".

Here's the calculation for energy @ 0 meters (muzzle)

.233Rem (M16, XMS, Steyr...) 0,5*0,00356Kg*921m/s^2= 1509,87 Joule

9x39 (VSS ammo) 0,5*0,016Kg*290m/s^2 = 672,8 Joule

For Game balance and playability I would put it on something like "hit=7" or "hit=8" but no way stronger because the bullet is subsonic and would lack hydrostatic shock effect aswell as any mentionable stopping power with the existing ammo types at only 9mm caliber.

[black__bird 0]

"In game I would put it somwhere between AK74 and PK recoilwise"

maybe a bit on the heavy size, since the K and the AK(-47) both fire the 7.62X39mm, which is a full sized rifle round, the round for the VSS is a smaller round similar to a larger caliber pistol round. recoil is minimized because it fires sub-sonic ammunition and even less gas escapes the bore due to the fact that the entire barrel is a suppressor. i think the recoil is right on the line for the weapon, same for the dispertion. fire it on full auto at a target 600m away and watch the rounds hit, they disperse in a rather large pattern but i am sure the real weapon does the same on full-auto at that distance.

[munger 25]

Very nice AKM74! It's great to see you still making addons for OFP.

I haven't tested it yet but if the hitpower is 20 it's WAY too powerful for a subsonic 9mm type round and puts the weapon firmly in the 'uber' category. Hitpower of 7 like Acecube said sounds right.

[BlackDeath-CFH 1]

this is all the info i could find on the rifle from world.guns.ru

VSS "Vintorez" (USSR/Russia)

Caliber: 9x39mm SP-5 and SP-6 subsonic cartridges

Action: auto, selective fire, gas-operated, striker-fired.

Lenght: 894mm

Barrel lenght: 200 mm

Weight: empty: 2.6 kg, loaded w. scope PSO-1: 3.41 kg

Magazine: 10 rds detachable box

Muzzle bullet velocity: 290-300 m/s (~ 900 fps)

the AS "Val" which is technically the same weapon..

AS "Val" (Russia)

Caliber, mm: 9x39 (SP-6, PAB-9)

Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt with 6 lugs

Length, mm: (stock open / folded): 875/615

Barrel lenght: 200 mm

Effective range ,m: 400

Weigth, kg: 2,96

Magazine , rds.: 10, 20

AS "Val": http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/as10-e.htm

VSS "Vintorez": http://www.world.guns.ru/sniper/sn20-e.htm

[digitalcenturion 20]

The hitpower calculating method acecube suggests isnt the only way to calculate a potency of a cartridge tough.

I calculated using the Taylor Knock Out, or TKO, wich is used by big game hunters in africa. It's bullet weight in grains x velocity in fps x bore diameter divided by 7000, the number of grains in a lb.

The 9.3X39mm Silent scored a rough TKO of 12

The 5.56mm NATO got a TKO of 5

(if i didnt fuck anything up, maths are not my strong part)

Wich means the 9.3x39mm has WAY more stopping power than the 5.56mm NATO... so i suggest a damage of something like 15, but the range should be short, and damage should drop fast (dunno if thats possible in ofp).

[Acecube 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DigitalCenturion @ Feb. 13 2003,11:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The hitpower calculating method  acecube suggests isnt the only way to calculate a potency of a cartridge tough.

I calculated using the Taylor Knock Out, or TKO, wich is used by big game hunters in africa. It's bullet weight in grains x velocity in fps x bore diameter divided by 7000, the number of grains in a lb.

The 9.3X39mm Silent scored a rough TKO of 12

The 5.56mm NATO got a TKO of 5

(if i didnt fuck anything up, maths are not my strong part)

Wich means the 9.3x39mm has WAY more stopping power than the 5.56mm NATO... so i suggest a damage of something like 15, but the range should be short, and damage should drop fast (dunno if thats possible in ofp).<span id='postcolor'>

I do agree with a bigger diameter having more stopping power but only as long as it is in a certain overall energy range. This is not given with the 9x39mm. The energy level of the VSS bullet is to be compared with the one of a magnum hand gun. Not even like the one of a "super" magnum like .50AE or .454Casull which are far beyond the 700 Joule mark.

The main part of a .233Rem's (5,56mm NATO's) knock out is it's high speed that (can) cause a hydrostatic shock to a human body and smal game.

To get back on big game, most important factor here is: will the bullet go all the way through the body and will it succesfully perforate lungs and heart and how big will the damage be to the blood vessels so the game bleeds out as quick as possible. The 9x39 with its rather weak overall power would even hardly be suitable for wild boars on short distance or similar. Unfortunately it's not possible to define a damage/distance ratio in OFP.

Bullet speed is the significant factor in the energy calculation  because it's non linear so this (VSS) bullet does loose energy very quick.

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (black__bird @ Feb. 13 2003,10:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"In game I would put it somwhere between AK74 and PK recoilwise"

maybe a bit on the heavy size, since the K and the AK(-47) both fire the 7.62X39mm, which is a full sized rifle round, the round for the VSS is a smaller round similar to a larger caliber pistol round.  recoil is minimized because it fires sub-sonic ammunition and even less gas escapes the bore due to the fact that the entire barrel is a suppressor.  i think the recoil is right on the line for the weapon, same for the dispertion.  fire it on full auto at a target 600m away and watch the rounds hit, they disperse in a rather large pattern but i am sure the real weapon does the same on full-auto at that distance.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually the 7.62mmx39mm round fired by the AK-47 is NOT a full sized rifle round. It is classified as an intermediate round which is in between a pistol round and a full sized rifle round.

In addition the PK does NOT fire the 7.62mmx39mm round. It fires a 7.62mmx54mm round that is a full size rifle round.

If the VSS rifle uses what essentially is a pistol round, then it should not be effective past 200 meters and should essentially have the same power as pistols in the game.

This weapon is not used for long range sniping, but only for accurate close range silent kills. Russian forces use another similar rifle that fires tiny .22LR rounds (similar to a Ruger 10/22 rifle) for much the same purpose.

Also for those that say a 9mm pistol round is not as lethal as a 7.62mmx39mm AK-47 round, perhaps this is true if the target is wearing body armor or is past 200 meters in distance. But at close range a 9mm round will kill you just as dead. SWAT teams would not be using 9mm HK MP5s if this were not the case. Another benefit of using such weapons is that it is ideal for hostage rescue missions because there is no over-penetration of the target's body. This means that the bullet will not go through the target and possibly hit a hostage or other innocent person behind the target. This is why assault rifles are usually not used in hostage rescues unless the target may be wearing body armor.

At any rate, in my opinion so far all the VSS rifles (two others already made so far) have been far too powerful and accurate for what they are. I hope that at the VSS will be made with the same ballistics as the HK MP5 (or the Bizon) in the game to keep things even... even those are a little unrealistic but at least it will be matched with MP5 and the Bizon already in the game.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Goeth 0]

Nice weapon. The cloud when bullet hit´s the ground looks a bit big. Drop down the damage level. Maybe those metal parts of the gun should be darker.

[Przezdzieblo 0]

If I know VSS has PSO-1 optics, the same as has SVD. There is no need to make new reticle, only please remember about x4 magnification, not x8 (like sight of SVD in OF has).

The power of new Russian bullets is still a secret. No one knows the results of fire these bullets. But this, what we know from producers, is rather mistification. Slow but heavy bullet maybe has good penetration ratio, fired from 200-300 meters has still power to kill or make "target" out of concious, but its accuracy cannot be good. So dispertion at 300 meters would be much more bigger than 5.45-5.56 bullets.

Please, do not make VSS next Wunderwaffe. It is just stronger submaschine gun, less effective than M16 or AK, it is rather not revolutionary as P90 and new 4.7 mm HK weapon are.

[akm74 1]

First, let me thank you all guys for huge amount of information you provide. There is lot of good points which definitely take my attention. I will try to fix/improve many thinks in next version.

Now let me tell you little more about VSS. At least what I’m learn from many different sources.

First, it use special/sniper CP-5 type of ammunition (The weight of a cartridge - 23 g, contains a bullet in weight 16, 2 gg with the lead core and initial speed of a bullet - 305 m/s)

Due to the “build in†silencer/muzzle brake VSS very (especially on single shot) accurate. It has almost no recoil and sound.

I still make it inaccurate on “full auto†mode, and you notice it.

Even on low speed bullets can penetrate 10mm steel from 100 meters. Effective range is 400 meters, but even on this range it easily penetrate second and third generation bullet proof west. (That’s why I’m use “damage 20, but will change it to 16. Not less. Because I don’t want to underpowered it instead)

I think that only these two parameters make erroneous comparison with M16 and furthermore with HK.

Some one on other forum sad AI didn’t engage enemy after 200 meters. Can someone confirm it?

[Przezdzieblo 0]

AKM74, it is obvious why these data we have are only producers informations. From the other hand I know that Izmash sometimes give some news which are really absurdal. But if you want to believe, that at 300-400 meters there is any comparison with AK or M16- your choice, we know only what producers` propaganda said. Really: short, dull- edged, stabilisated by rotation slow bullet cannot be accurate at that range.

Is VSS` PSO-1 other type of PSO-1? This kind of sight has characteristic body with connecting rail on the left side.

Why your model has another?

[earl 0]

The 9x39mm SP-5, SP-6 (and newer, cheaper to produce PAB-9) has excellent armor penetration - not comparable to 9x19mm pistol rounds.

The muzzle energy is comparable to assault rifles, the difference is low velocity with a heavy round (17grams). The main drawback is the curved trajectory since it's a slow heavy round. I don't know if it's possible to have a significant bullet drop instead of just low accuracy.

AKM74, did you have any interest in combining your ballistics with my VSS model, or are you just tired of waiting for it so you made your own? I'm planning to do the AS Val with a cobra sight. But there's already a lot of these rifles around, maybe I'll just keep them for myself.

http://www.baconbomb.com/modworks/screens/vss_01.jpg

http://www.baconbomb.com/modworks/screens/vss_02.jpg

[akm74 1]

Your model and textures look much better then my. And about ballistics... it exactly what i'm trying to find out now.

[SFG 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (black__bird @ Feb. 13 2003,09:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">very accurate at all distances at Range SFG on Phaeden Island<span id='postcolor'>

You have to pay to play at my range

[black__bird 0]

SFG, i put the check in the mail last week, you havent recieved it yet?

[miles teg 1]

Uh... why did the moderator move this thread to the "in progress" section? They usually let other beta addon threads continue in the "complete" section. What's up with that? I mean it's no big deal, but it makes it a little harder to track the thread.

I was just curious, cuz if you go by the rule that only final versions of addons can be posted on the "addons and mods: complete" section then moderators will need to remove 90% of the threads on there, since around 90% of them are beta addons (or alpha sometimes).

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[blackdog~ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">only released stuff, including public beta releases<span id='postcolor'>

Dunno...

[Acecube 0]

Please excuse me if I get a little upset here!

1. I understand that if someone makes a weapon, he will choose one he "likes". Further I can imagine that the addonmaker will like to have "his" gun very strong and accurate.

2. @Miles Teg. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">.  I hope that at the VSS will be made with the same ballistics as the HK  MP5 (or the Bizon) in the game to keep things even... even those are a little unrealistic but at least it will be matched with MP5 and the Bizon already in the game.

<span id='postcolor'>

Thats definately a point! I agree with that for playability reasons.

3. @Miles Teg. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also for those that say a 9mm pistol round is not as lethal as a 7.62mmx39mm AK-47 round, perhaps this is true if the target is wearing body armor or is past 200 meters in distance.  But at close range a 9mm round will kill you just as dead.  SWAT teams would not be using 9mm HK MP5s if this were not the case<span id='postcolor'>

You cannot generalize "9mm" because there's WAY to many bullet types in this size. 9x19; 9x21; 9mmMakarov; .357Mag; .38Special; .357SIG just to name some. They vary much in speed and mass (and construction)

Sure enough a 9mm Parabellum (or Luger or 9x19 ... you name it) does have enough stopping or killing power for L.E or military use but it still is energy level is only enough for a short range and it's piercing cabability is very limited.

4. @Przezdzieblo

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The power of new Russian bullets is still a secret. No one knows the results of fire these bullets. ...<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe there is little information about the bullet. BUT we DO have it's mass and it's speed. This is why we definately can say something about it's power. This is nothing about magic or mystery it just good old plain physics

5. @AKM74

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">First, it use special/sniper CP-5 type of ammunition (The weight of a cartridge - 23 g, contains a bullet in weight 16, 2 gg with the lead core and initial speed of a bullet - 305 m/s)<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, this gives the conclusion that the VSS-Ãœber-Armour-Piercing-Killer-Long-Range-Super-Gun has got a muzzle energy of exactly 753,5 Joule (0,5*0,0162Kg*305m/s^2 = 753,5025Joule)

Now let's compare energy at muzzle:

-5.56x45mmNATO = 1700J (921m/s; 4,01g)

-7,6x39mm M43 = 1991J (710m/s; 7,9g)

-7.62x51mmNATO = 3594J (860m/s; 9,72g)

now at 300yards (273 meters):

-5.56x45mmNATO = 686J (585m/s; 4,01g)

-7,6x39mm M43 = 872J (470m/s; 7,9g)

-7.62x51mmNATO = 2207J (674m/s; 9,72g)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">. It has almost no recoil and sound.

I still make it inaccurate on “full auto†mode, and you notice it.<span id='postcolor'>

It is NOT the full auto mode itself that makes a gun inaccurate (NOT in OFP and NOT in real life) but the recoil that puts the gun out of aim. So if it is like you say that the gun has "almost no recoil" then it "almost" should not be more inaccurate on full auto mode.  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Even on low speed bullets can penetrate 10mm steel from 100 meters. <span id='postcolor'>

Please excuse but I'm laughing my ass off.

This is absurd! I have tested quite a couple of different guns on different materials at our shooting range. But this doesn't work out at all.

6. I hope you all understand that I'm not talking about flavours here. It is about PHYSICS. I have been disapointed  but also suprised about kinetics in real life on the shooting range. I have shot 9x19mm rounds on a 5mm Aluminium plate at close range and seen them spray away and pierced them with my .357Mag then. We tested body armours, bullet proof glas, steel plates, even bullet proof compound wood.

That's why fairy tale stories about bullets piss me off.

Just remembered I participated on Supermagnum championship a couple of years ago. I was shooting with a .50AE Desert Eagle. The ammo was handloaded by the owner to give me "low recoil". The minimum allowed energy was 1100Joule for the stage. The .50AE Bullets had 1450Joule because else the gun wouldn't reload properly

[miles teg 1]

All of which is why the VSS should be made relative to similar weapons in the game like the Bizon and MP5.   That I think is a lot better then worrying about how accurate it is to the real life weapon when accurate data on the bullet used may not even exhist (or what does exist may be highly exaggerated).    No doubt it's a unique and powerful weapon in real life, but the dammage levels should be kept the same as the M16 or AK74/47.  Then if possible the bullet velocity could be lowered a bit.  I'm sure eventually something reasonable will be created.  Just use common sense and it'll be a good and fun rifle to shoot in OFP.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[earl 0]

More this way ---> http://www.baconbomb.com/modworks

AKM74 sent me his source files, so I've replaced the model with mine. I think the damage is a little bit much, but haven't tested it at longer ranges yet. If it has a severe bullet drop, I don't mind if it has good power because that's fairly realistic. For gameplay purposes, a silent weapon can be pretty deadly, we'll have to play around. What do you guys think after having AKM74's beta/trial weapon for a while?

I'll be making an AS Val as well - so I'd like to make 2 mags. The first should be a 10-round SP5 mag, as the SP5 is a special sniper version of the 9x39mm, and a 20-round SP6 mag. Both will be interchangeable, but the SP6 is cheaper and not as high-grade as SP5. It should have a higher dispersion and slightly less damage - that way if you want true sniper ammo for maximum effect, you are stuck with just 10 rounds. I think the zoom on the scope is a bit too much for the urban battlefield scenario that the VSS is designed for (ie Chechnya).