Defensive ring around baghdad

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 11 2003,05:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 11 2003,10:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you really believe that God is a living being, you must leave room for error.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes and no. He's alive, but he's not like a human being. Like I said, he's perfect.<span id='postcolor'>

His name isn't George Bush is it?

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Jan. 10 2003,23:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 11 2003,05:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 11 2003,10:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you really believe that God is a living being, you must leave room for error.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes and no. He's alive, but he's not like a human being. Like I said, he's perfect.<span id='postcolor'>

His name isn't George Bush is it?<span id='postcolor'>

Don't use his holy name in vain, you evil athiest.

[Tovarish 0]

Forgive me Dyuba for I have sinned

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 11 2003,04:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir is right! USA call them a christian country and they are making war for peace? What mislead fools the US are. <span id='postcolor'>

1) this is racism

2) although the majority of the U.S. is Christian, our government is not run by a Christian doctrine.

3) I believe that Christianity does not disprove of war, only murder.<span id='postcolor'>

C'mon bro, how can you possibly think this is racist? Americans are neither a racial group or a tightly knit ethnicity. Your example of the German race is misleading, because although yes, Germany happens to be a country, the German race is actually a very genetically homogeneous strain, that is shared by many inhabitants of the Bavarian area. How else do you think a certain moustached man was able to create such a feeling of racial solidarity in the 30's and 40's? The same thing goes for a country like Japan. The Japanese are a very homogeneous culture and genetic strain, which is why saying "the Japanese race" is appropriate.

However, America is such a mishmash of seperate cultures, races, and ethnicities, that only the highly misinformed (aka "dumb") would even consider calling Americans a race as a whole. I mean, line up Jesse Jackson, David Duke, and Bruce Lee, then look me right in the eyes and with a straight face tell me that "Americans" can be considered as one race.

EDIT:

That being said, I think Chill would be a major candidate for Post-Restriction, if it wasn't for the fact that his opinions are so highly misinformed (see above definition) as to make them very entertaining for me to read.

[Chill 0]

What I meant is that if your a christian " Thou shall not kill"

That means, no matter what reason! People turn the bible around and make it their own advantage eg: The Crusades.

The Bible is the law upon we should all live.

Don't you all think that this conflict in Iraq is a smoke screen for the USA to take their oil fields.

The Kurds have already agreed to let the US companies takeover the oil fileds once Saddam is expelled!

In the US there are some enlightened people already realise that by attacking Iraq will only boost the ranks for Bin Ladden.

I just pray that enough people have the common sense to see thru these stupid/profit motives of the USA!

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Jan. 11 2003,11:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">*sigh* my point was your initial question was stupid and I gave another one of equal stupidity to illustrate that to you. I guess atheist can make stupid statements, but I know for a fact certain christians can. For example:<span id='postcolor'>

Are you going to rehash old arguments or actually contribute to this discussion.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No it wasn't racist. Why? Me moderator, me say not racist. End of story.<span id='postcolor'>

Good point.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Nationalities are not races.. I'm not even sure there is a german race. Maybe you can find some common genetic parts among the german but it's not differing much compared to for an example a dutch. But not that much that you can call it a different race.<span id='postcolor'>

Read the thread. You know, the part where I list a definition of race including nationality.

This is stupid, you're saying it's ok to blatantly insult an entire nation because they all come from different ethnicities? Just plain stupid.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 11 2003,07:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Nationalities are not races.. I'm not even sure there is a german race. Maybe you can find some common genetic parts among the german but it's not differing much compared to for an example a dutch. But not that much that you can call it a different race.<span id='postcolor'>

Read the thread.  You know, the part where I list a definition of race including nationality.

This is stupid, you're saying it's ok to blatantly insult an entire nation because they all come from different ethnicities?  Just plain stupid. <span id='postcolor'>

How did you manage to quote me without taking a single thing from my post?

Anyhow, look. No, it's not okay, and it is undoubtedly stupid, but just listen to me on this: it is not racist.

Racist is denying equal rights to a race (an actual race, not a watered down, politically correct version of a race), simply because they are that race.

Racist is beleiving that one race is superior to another.

And let me ask you this question: How can Americans be defined as one 'race', if we ourselves still allow racial hatred to divide us within our own country?

[llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 11 2003,07:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is stupid, you're saying it's ok to blatantly insult an entire nation because they all come from different ethnicities?  Just plain stupid. <span id='postcolor'>

Sure that's what I said... If you want to turn everything said against you that's fine for me.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How did you manage to quote me without taking a single thing from my post?  <span id='postcolor'>

It's a bug, and it bugs me.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Racist is denying equal rights to a race (an actual race, not a watered down, politically correct version of a race), simply because they are that race.

Racist is beleiving that one race is superior to another.<span id='postcolor'>

According to my magic online dictionary, it's both.  And it's irrelevant, as the moderator has already decided to do nothing about it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism

racism

n 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And let me ask you this question: How can Americans be defined as one 'race', if we ourselves still allow racial hatred to divide us within our own country?<span id='postcolor'>

Don't take groups like the KKK and neo-nazis as a representation of the entire US.  Like I said before, I think that America is one race, even though it's made up of lots of races.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sure that's what I said... If you want to turn everything said against you that's fine for me.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually I wasn't talking to you.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 11 2003,07:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Racist is denying equal rights to a race (an actual race, not a watered down, politically correct version of a race), simply because they are that race.

Racist is beleiving that one race is superior to another.<span id='postcolor'>

According to my magic online dictionary, it's both.  And it's irrelevant, as the moderator has already decided to do nothing about it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism

racism

n 1: the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races 2: discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And let me ask you this question: How can Americans be defined as one 'race', if we ourselves still allow racial hatred to divide us within our own country?<span id='postcolor'>

Don't take groups like the KKK and neo-nazis as a representation of the entire US.  Like I said before, I think that America is one race, even though it's made up of lots of races.<span id='postcolor'>

look, I know what dictionary.com says, and I'm telling you that it is innacurate.

And don't tell me how to look at my own country. I know what has happened in this country and still happens. I judge people upon their actions, not their words, and their is entirely more racially divisive actions going on, even today in America than racially inclusive actions. And it isn't just the KKK or skinheads. It's the cop that pulls over a guy because he's black and driving a nice car. It's the pizza guy who sees a black couple walking on the opposite side of my street and jokingly warns me to make sure they don't try and steal my stuff. It's shit like that, not the fucking extremists, that are keeping us apart.

[llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 11 2003,07:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Like I said before, I think that America is one race, even though it's made up of lots of races.<span id='postcolor'>

You are saying that chinese, arabs, africans, indians, latinos and swedes are the same race?

And don't forget the aliens at area 51 who are also part of the american race

[Tex -USMC- 0]

1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chill @ Jan. 11 2003,071)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I meant is that if your a christian " Thou shall not kill"

That means, no matter what reason! People turn the bible around and make it their own advantage eg: The Crusades.

The Bible is the law upon we should all live.

Don't you all think that this conflict in Iraq  is a smoke screen for the USA to take their oil fields.

The Kurds have already agreed to let the US companies takeover the oil fileds once Saddam is expelled!

In the US there are some enlightened people already realise that by attacking Iraq will only boost the ranks for Bin Ladden.

I just pray that enough people have the common sense to see thru these stupid/profit motives of the USA!<span id='postcolor'>

Let's take this line by line, so things will stay orderly.

"Thou shalt not kill" is one of the Ten Commandments, as related by the Old Testament, which is a sacred text to Jews, in addition to Christians. Muslims also share many basic beliefs stemming from nonviolence. Apparently, this hasn't had a very large impact on any of these religions, so it is a little unfair to single Christians out. Hussein claims to be a Muslim, but I don't recall the line in the Koran that says "Thou shalt gas thy neighbors and thy own people". The point is that placing the entire burden of religious violence on Christianity is absurd, biased, and 'higly misinformed'. The Bible is the law upon which we should all live? What about Jews? They only recognise half the Bible as holy, should they be punished? Muslims also? How about the followers of the Eastern religions? Seems to me you are cutting alot of people out with that statement.

No, I don't think that the conflict in Iraq is about oil. If we were at the point of invading countries solely to take advantage of their natural resources, don't you think we would pick Saudi Arabia instead? More oil, less opposition, and all in all a much easier target. And what, exactly, do the Kurds have to do with anything? Your rote recital of Islamic fundamentalist propaganda is truly sad. Yes, the Kurds want a piece of the petroleum pie, just like everyone else in the region. But they already have that piece, because they play ball with Saddam. the only thing the Kurds lack is a country to call their own, and a US invasion will set back that goal even more than it advances it, as I've proven in previous threads.

So, attacking Iraq will increase support for Al Qaeda? That's a shock- it seems like anything the US does increases support for Al Qaeda these days. If us attacking a secular Arab regime that has attacked two of its devoutly religious neighbors in the past will increase hatred against us, then I imagine practically anything we do will increase hatred. At this point, we might as well get the job done, take the world popularity hit, and keep on trying to do what's right.

[llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Jan. 11 2003,07:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let's take this line by line, so things will stay orderly.

"Thou shalt not kill" is one of the Ten Commandments, as related by the Old Testament, which is a sacred text to Jews and Muslims, in addition to Christians.<span id='postcolor'>

Hmm... You better study religion a little more.

Muslims do NOT consider the old testament as sacred.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Llauma @ Jan. 11 2003,08:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmm... You better study religion a little more.

Muslims do NOT consider the old testament as sacred.<span id='postcolor'>

I apologize, my info was innacurate. Islam draws many things from the Old Testament, although it does not hold the Old Testament as sacred. Still, nonviolence is a strong theme in Islamic teaching, so my overall point stands.

BTW, I'll edit my original post.

[llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Jan. 11 2003,07:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So, attacking Iraq will increase support for Al Qaeda? That's a shock- it seems like anything the US does increases support for Al Qaeda these days. If us attacking a secular Arab regime that has attacked two of its devoutly religious neighbors in the past will increase hatred against us, then I imagine practically anything we do will increase hatred. At this point, we might as well get the job done, take the world popularity hit, and keep on trying to do what's right.<span id='postcolor'>

Attacking arabic countries wont eliminate the terrorism.

The terrorists have many children...

You have to deal with the root behind this problem.

I'm not the man to answer what it is but I would guess that it's mainly the global injustice from the western countries with USA carrying the flag towards the poorer countries.

It's not a world popularity hit you will have to take...

WTC was nothing compared to what you will have to deal with.

You will have to live your lives in terror if you continue your crusade.

And the last thing... Have you ever considered that USA might be wrong?

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 11 2003,07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">*sigh* my point was your initial question was stupid and I gave another one of equal stupidity to illustrate that to you. I guess atheist can make stupid statements, but I know for a fact certain christians can. For example:<span id='postcolor'>

Are you going to rehash old arguments or actually contribute to this discussion.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, that depends, are you going to attack me personally because I happen to be an atheist or are you going to actually contribute to this discussion? <!--emo&

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Like I said before, I think that America is one race, even though it's made up of lots of races.

<span id='postcolor'>

You have got some serious issues differentiating between a nation and a race. What about the civil rights movement then, what was all that about? Hell, call it a race if you will. I guarantee you if you make that statement to any visible minority they will either laugh or get a bit irritated with you, but sure, to yourself Americans are a race.....now, look at every single reply on this forum to that effect.....does ANYONE agree? nope....wow, maybe you're not right?

<span style='color:red'>*edit*</span> Allrighty, since you seem to have a habit of simply ignoring points of discussion you don't like, I think I shall start pointing them out after a few hours unanswered, starting here

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Llauma @ Jan. 11 2003,08:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Attacking arabic countries wont eliminate the terrorism.

The terrorists have many children...

You have to deal with the root behind this problem.

I'm not the man to answer what it is but I would guess that it's mainly the global injustice from the western countries with USA carrying the flag towards the poorer countries.

It's not a world popularity hit you will have to take...

WTC was nothing compared to what you will have to deal with.

You will have to live your lives in terror if you continue your crusade.

And the last thing...  Have you ever considered that USA might be wrong?<span id='postcolor'>

You're right, attacking Arabic countries won't eliminate terrorism. That isn't what removing Saddam is about. Disarming Iraq is a means to keep weapons that could seriously hurt us out of terrorist's hands. A terrorist will always be able to get into the US and be able to kill a few people with relative ease, but to pull off an attack that truly damages the nation, either physically or psychologically, a terrorist either needs the funding to pull off a 9/11 type atatck, or they need weapons of mass destruction. By removing Saddam Hussein, we remove a large portion of biological and chemical weapons from the reach of terrorists, as well as eliminating a rogue state with the funding and wherewithal to eventually create a nuke.

I hold no illusions that terrorists can be wiped from the face of the globe. As long as people are willing to kill innocents to get their way, terrorism will exist. That doesn't mean we should just roll over and accept terrorism as a status quo. We have a responsibility to make the terrorism the most dangerous job in the world, as well as the most difficult. A state like Saddam's Iraq is not on the friendliest terms with the US to begin with, and its historical willingness to use WMD's and terrorism in regional conflicts makes it a likely suspect for collaboration with terrorists targeting America. If you destroy Iraq's ability to aid terrorists, you are making the terrorist's job that much more difficult. Without state-support, they have to turn to the private sector, with its smaller resources and infrastructure (in most cases). Then terrorists have to rely on guys like Osama Bin Laden (who are the exception to the above statement), whose unique coupling of hate and monetary resources makes him, quite literally, one in 6 billion.

By taking out large targets like Iraq, you don't eliminate terrorism. Terrorism will always be around. But what does happen is you force terrorism into a much smaller arena, with lower stakes, and lower losses of innocent life. The idea is to take out the big fish one by one, and eventually you find that without the big-timers backing up the little guys, the little guys are much less of a threat, and you can pursue them at leisure.

The reason for such a focus on terror suspects like Saddam with access to NBC weaponry, is that these weapons can (and eventually will, unfortunately) change the entire game. Now a lone suicide bomber can kill hundreds instead of just tens, and a truck bomb can take out a town, instead of just a block.

We will be able to live with conventional terror on a small scale, but if we allow the terrorists to raise the stakes with WMDs, we will be living with terror daily, but we will lack the ability to do anything about it.

I'm sure I missed some stuff in there, but I just had to get to your last remark. Have I considered that we are wrong? Yes and no, really. I have thought about it in the abstract, but I never really seriously considered it, for several reasons.

1) Americans and America are, despite our flaws, are fundamentally dedicated to good. We send out billions of dollars of foreign aid, are on the leading edge of scientific research, have more and better institutes of higher learning than any other country in the world, and thousands of Americans have died for good causes.

2) Any group who is willing to purposefully target innocent people to achieve their political or idealogical goals has something fundamentally flawed in their decision-making process.

3) Any country in which Jerry Lewis, Gilligan's Island, and The Brady Bunch are so successful is too dumb to be capable of evil

[Longinius 1]

"No, I don't believe the conclusions of my government are universal, but I don't believe that even the majority of the government would lie about something. And I think we've said multiple times that we'll do this with or without UN support."

What about if the majority of the government has been mislead by a minority then? Or howabout the oh so classic "plausible denial"?

""You shall not kill" is the fifth commandment... "

Actually it is "You shall not murder". There is an error in translation, or so I have been told. Christians can kill for just reasons, but murder is a big no-no.

"Don't take groups like the KKK and neo-nazis as a representation of the entire US. Like I said before, I think that America is one race, even though it's made up of lots of races."

The US is actually quite racist, just as many European countries. Just because it isnt open racism doesnt mean it isnt there.

[//relic// 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 11 2003,05:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What's the answer?<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">God doesn't disallow warfare.<span id='postcolor'>

Interesting.  You speak so certainly for something which has never had it's existance proven, and by all scientific logical processes would be immediately discarded as it's unfalsifiable.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That I can't answer since I don't believe in Him. It would make as much sense as if I asked you "If God is really all powerful, can he create a stone that's too heavy for even Him to move?".<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Can atheists make a statement so stupid even THEY won't believe it? <span id='postcolor'>

Why is that stupid?  Because you personally cannot figure out a way to reconcile that question with your belief in "god's" (speech marks are to demonstrate my highly dubious reference to "god" as though "he" exists) infallibility?

I see you're bringing your in-your-face christianty to here as equally as you have a 500x80 or something "FRUGALSWORLD CHRISTIAN BROTHERHOOD" sig at frugalsworld.

Edit: LOL Tovarish said it already - whenever I see that particular commandment it makes me laugh because of the thou shalt not covet thy neighbours ass bit

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">God doesn't make mistakes.<span id='postcolor'>

If there is a god, then it's biggest mistake was humanity.

Chill, what America does is in the best intrest of the nation.  It's always been like that, and always will.  It may seem wrong to you, because you're looking through a different prerspective.  Nobody wants to really fight Iraq, but if it is in the best intrest of the country, that's good enough for me.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Edit: LOL Tovarish said it already - whenever I see that particular commandment it makes me laugh because of the thou shalt not covet thy neighbours ass bit <span id='postcolor'>

Me too lol.

[Cloney 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Jan. 11 2003,18:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">God doesn't make mistakes.<span id='postcolor'>

If there is a god, then it's biggest mistake was humanity.<span id='postcolor'>

If we wanted to get really techincal, In the Old Testament when God created us, we *were* perfect. Adam and Eve fucked up and God banished us from Paradise.

Being a contextual reader of the Bible,(Im Catholic), I'd say that "Paradise" or "Eden" was a world without hate, suffering or pain. We screwed it up for ourselves, God didn't screw up, we did. The Bible also states that God created all things good.

I'm not trying to jam my relgious beliefs down your throat Im just making a point.

[joltan 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Jan. 11 2003,07:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, I don't think that the conflict in Iraq is about oil. If we were at the point of invading countries solely to take advantage of their natural resources, don't you think we would pick Saudi Arabia instead? More oil, less opposition, and all in all a much easier target.<span id='postcolor'>

Wrong! Iraq is already singled out as a bad boy for the international community and doesn't have much support from its neighbours - Saudi Arabia is home to the holy sites (Mekka and Medina) of Islam, and any invasion by the US would cause a bigger uproar in the region than the US could take. So Iraq is an easy target - and by pure coincidence its oil will last longer than Saudia Arabia's recources which have been exloited at a much higher rate.

[Harnu 0]

All I mean is, if we were so perfect, why'd they mess up? And then with Adam and Eve, then there's the whole imbreeding thing lol. (just kidding, I haven't read the whole bible so I don't really know if "God" made just adam and eve, or if he made others too.

[Gollum1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Jan. 11 2003,19:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All I mean is, if we were so perfect, why'd they mess up?  And then with Adam and Eve, then there's the whole imbreeding thing lol.  (just kidding, I haven't read the whole bible so I don't really know if "God" made just adam and eve, or if he made others too.<span id='postcolor'>

There was inbreeding, but I´ve heard that it was somehow justified because the human race was still unmutated and pure, so the offspring didn´t become deformed or sick like they would have a very high chance of becoming today.

But of course there are the usual issues about siblings sleeping together. Couldn´t God have created another couple so they would have been spared the sheer indignity of inbreeding? Sick.

Aah, just my 2 cents

[Badgerboy 0]

Thats all ways a good one to throwat someone. And considering Eve had two boys, they were in effect having to nail their mum to get more kids......

There were some real sickos writing that book!