Modern spetsnaz / group alpha

[mailman76 0]

Ok, guys i'll retextures "Vityaz" units in Woodland camo and Town/City camo (not so bright).

[akm74 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> found a pic of Group Alpha during the anti-terrorist assault on that Moscow theatre wearing these uniforms at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media....0ap.jpg

<span id='postcolor'>

I don’t think this is Alpha troops, it look more like “internal ministry troopsâ€. I’m 90% sure they belong to police (MVD) or OMON. They usually have blue camo uniform.

[Sigma-6 29]

Don't retexture them. just do another version.

Personally, I'm more than sick and tired of people hijacking realistic addons over what they think reality 'ought to be'.

Come on people, isn't there the possibility that what 'looks good' might not be the case?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's as bad as the U.N. soldiers wearing bright blue "Shoot Me" berets!!!

<span id='postcolor'>

The UN wears those berets for the *express purpose* of being *seen on the battlefield*. Difficult as it may be for you to understand, you will also hear stories of how they enter contested zones where fire is being exchanged *between two sides* clearly displaying giant blue flags and wearing big blue helmets.

I hate to break it to you, but sometimes you simply *have* to be seen on a battlefield. It may go against your notions, but reality is often stranger than fiction.

For example, as strange as it may seem, quite often camouflage patterns that initially appear to stand out in theory, in actual practise, serve the intended purpose of camouflage, which is not so much to 'blend in' as to 'disrupt'.

There are also other benefits to certain odd camouflage patterns, in that their tones often react differently to light levels and slight changes in environment. Sometimes it doesn't take much to fool the eye, and as any artist worth their chips will tell you, there are odd tones in places you don't expect there to be. . . just look hard at a monet.

Those blue Russian urban schemes are based on a great deal of practical experience, and do serve a particular purpose. You might be served by a study of modern disruptive camouflage patterns. There's a lot of counterintuitive stuff that a lot of people studying for many years have discovered actually works.

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sigma-6 @ Jan. 05 2003,11:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't retexture them. just do another version.

Personally, I'm more than sick and tired of people hijacking realistic addons over what they think reality 'ought to be'.

Come on people, isn't there the possibility that what 'looks good' might not be the case?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's as bad as the U.N. soldiers wearing bright blue "Shoot Me" berets!!!  

<span id='postcolor'>

The UN wears those berets for the *express purpose* of being *seen on the battlefield*. Difficult as it may be for you to understand, you will also hear stories of how they enter contested zones where fire is being exchanged *between two sides* clearly displaying giant blue flags and wearing big blue helmets.

I hate to break it to you, but sometimes you simply *have* to be seen on a battlefield. It may go against your notions, but reality is often stranger than fiction.

For example, as strange as it may seem, quite often camouflage patterns that initially appear to stand out in theory, in actual practise, serve the intended purpose of camouflage, which is not so much to 'blend in' as to 'disrupt'.

There are also other benefits to certain odd camouflage patterns, in that their tones often react differently to light levels and slight changes in environment. Sometimes it doesn't take much to fool the eye, and as any artist worth their chips will tell you, there are odd tones in places you don't expect there to be. . . just look hard at a monet.

Those blue Russian urban schemes are based on a great deal of practical experience, and do serve a particular purpose. You might be served by a study of modern disruptive camouflage patterns. There's a lot of counterintuitive stuff that a lot of people studying for many years have discovered actually works.<span id='postcolor'>

I am NOT trying to hijack his addon.  That is why I first suggest that he simply makes another Spetsnaz unit using the same model but with the woodland camoflage patterns.  

Also the blue uniforms were a tad too bright as he noted himself.  In addition, are all the Vityaz uniforms that color?  If not then I see nothing wrong with two versions.  I never suggested that he get rid of the blue uniforms.  

As far as how effective those uniforms are, say what you like, but in all those pictures those guys stick out like a sore thumb even around buildings and urban structures.   I can see no possible way that these uniforms are of benefit in Chechnya unless it is to reduce a soldier's profile against the sky.   Disruptive cammo patterns on uniforms and equipment worn by soldiers are almost always woodland colors.   When they are not, it is usually when the disruptive cammo paterns are used for aircraft or ships.

I have a Army background by the way and I'm very much aware of how camoflage works as I used to conduct training on applying camoflage to an individual, vehicles, and fighting positions so no need to lecture me on this please.

 

As for the Blue Berets/helmets and white vehicles, no doubt they are sometimes needed.  But often they have led to provide those who oppose the U.N. an easy target of  opportunity as many dead U.N. soldiers could attest to if they were alive (Sierra Leone is one example).  To be fair I believe they have certain SOP's for when and where the blue and white can be displayed on troops and vehicles (in Somalia for example the blue berets and helmets were rarely worn by soldiers under the U.N. who patrolled the streets of Mogadishu), but nevertheless it's a gamble when the enviornment is hostile and they are ordered to display these colors.  Anyhoo...others like RAN can give more information on U.N. operating procedures and the benefits vs. risks of wearing the blue head gear and riding around in white vehicles.

At any rate, I think it's good that Mailman is making the Vityaz uniform less bright, and also giving them a woodland camo uniform, although I'd prefer he just make another Spetsnaz group with cammo uniform.   But it's up to him.  Either way is kewl with me.   The missions made with his addons will show which versions mission makers prefer using. At the least it gives a mission maker a choice of whether they want to be ultra-realistic in their missions or not. Who knows, if the blue uniforms are sufficiently darkened and not so bright, I might use them in missions also, or use a combination of units.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[ran 0]

blue helmet cover is not nice when it comes to counter sniper in forrest environnement

but sigma is right , the blue and white colors are here on purpose and they are usefull (white looks better on TV than army green )

sigma is right , and the white and blue are the marks of the UN , with todays RoE applied in UN missions it means something like  : fire at us and we will answer so you'd better calm down

i appreciate the blue color of our headwear because it immediatly says to the locals who we are and they don't have to fear an armed incursion of the opposing side

those blue headcovers have some really big advantages since men under UN flag aren't always under an enemy rain of steel and the blue along the white fits well for some other tasks such as food distributions , civilian enginering tasks and so on

sure that we avoided to take our blue helmet covers with us when we were seeking enemy mortars or snipers

the "flashy" colors are only there as communication means and we take them with us only when we're asked to do so

i remember in bosnia , on the Mostar airport (if i remember correctly , might be the sarajevo one , but both had hills around anyway) almost nobody from the Air Commandos (their task was to protect the field) was wearing the blue helmet cover because the place was situated in a nice open area with a few nice hills around (mortars and snipers magnet)

[digitalcenturion 20]

Well i wont say anything about the Sigma vs. Miles teg argument, but on one thing i do have to disagree: the chechnyans must be pretty confident in the russians uniforms, because the wear them themselves. I saw a BBC documentary about the Chechen freedom fighters and there they displayed their gear, including russian blue uniforms (and silenced AKs, and one of those two warhead RPG-7 mods for busting ERA, all sold by corrupt russian generals). I trust BBCs documentaries enough to believe it was true. And speaking of bad camo, ive heard that the US woodland camo in fact is one of the worst there is. Prolly why the USMC seek to replace them.

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DigitalCenturion @ Jan. 05 2003,17:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well i wont say anything about the Sigma vs. Miles teg argument, but on one thing i do have to disagree: the chechnyans must be pretty confident in the russians uniforms, because the wear them themselves. I saw a BBC documentary about the Chechen freedom fighters and there they displayed their gear, including russian blue uniforms (and silenced AKs, and one of those two warhead RPG-7 mods for busting ERA, all sold by corrupt russian generals). I trust BBCs documentaries enough to believe it was true. And speaking of bad camo, ive heard that the US woodland camo in fact is one of the worst there is. Prolly why the USMC seek to replace them.<span id='postcolor'>

Captured Russian uniforms are often used for missions that require them to penetrate Russian lines disguised as Russian troops. I don't think it would be healthy for them to be wearing those in a firefight as the risk of friendly fire would be heavy.

As for the U.S. woodland camo, from experience with it, I can tell you that it is fairly good. Just ask anyone in the U.S. military who has taken part in hasty ambushes during combat training. Usually it's movement that gives a soldier's position away. The standard U.S. military woodland cammo is not the best certainly but it does a good job in general at least when it's not faded. No doubt their are better camoflage patterns which is why the USMC seeks to replace theirs.

My own opinion is that the best cammo is natural vegitation. Attach a bunch of grass and branches to yourself and equipment and your're a walking bush. Ghillie suits are nice but only available to snipers unless you make one yourself and your CO actually lets you wear it. Sometimes we also use pieces of cammo nets used for camoflaging vehicles and tents, but it snags on branches while moving. It's great stuff however for LP/OPs and for covering yourself up if you need to unroll a man size net and cover yourself with it.

Anyhoo... I stand by my opinion that the blue urban cammo in those Spetsnaz pics is crap cammo. If anyone can show me a pic where it actually camoflages the soldier well then I might change my opinion. The regular Russian woodland cammo however I like quite a bit.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[earl 0]

I like the blue tigerstripe camo, mailman, it's signature Russian camo. It's just really saturated right now on your units.

Here's a few screenshots of what the Ghost Recon developers did with the same pattern:

blue tigerstripe in GR

Try just taking down the saturation until it looks greyish. Take out way more than you think you should, because in-game it will probably look right - faded and worn, but still looks like blue camo.

Now - does anybody know where I can find a tutorial about modifying or making new units in Oxygen?

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (.40S&W @ Jan. 04 2003,13:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Very promising beta indeed.

Flashpoint.ru IS also in English.

http://west.flashpoint.ru/

whenever any addon of Russian team achieves its final stage, it's goint to be posted there for sure.

As for UCE's units and mailman rus weapon pack, they fit each other perfectly.<span id='postcolor'>

Except that it's always about a week or two behind, and any addons are linked to the Russian site, so when you try to download it you end up at the same old Rusiian "you are not logged in" page.

[toadeater 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Miles Teg @ Jan. 05 2003,20:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyhoo...  I stand by my opinion that the blue urban cammo in those Spetsnaz pics is crap cammo.  <span id='postcolor'>

Apparently it is some kind of standard international camo pattern because its used in the US too...maybe just for retail, but it exists:

There must be some reason it was made?

[toadeater 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (mailman76 @ Jan. 04 2003,09:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One qustion: Why the textures are crap???<span id='postcolor'>

What resolution are they? They seem kind of blurry.

[Sigma-6 29]

I'm not going to add anyhting new to the argument, since I've stated my case, and I've got reality on my side.

I will re-iterate:

Look again at the photos. In some cases there is not much disruption going on, but in other cases, the camouflage is doing a better job than other urban patterns would, certainly better than woodland patterns. keep an eye to shadow, shade, tone and the disruptive quality of the pattern.

Regardless of whether you've trained people in camouflage or not (I took those courses, incidentally) You're still missing a few of the basic tenets of the theory.

Your UN assertions are off base and incorrect.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No doubt their are better camoflage patterns which is why the USMC seeks to replace theirs<span id='postcolor'>

The new USMC pattern is called MARPAT. It's an americanized version of the Canadian developed CADPAT. It's similar to the T/W pattern.

That being said, I'm not posting on this topic anymore.

[suchey 0]

On a similar note in regard to the color discussion...stranger things have been discovered regarding cammo...pink has been determined to be an excellent cammo color in desert environments...I seem to remember an article which mentioned the use of pink vehicles in some desert based conflict. The details escape me at this time, but hard to imagine a group of hard chargin' spec ops screaming through the desert in a pink ATV.

[Frisbee 0]

Tornado's were sand/desert pink coloured during the gulf war,it's really not bright,fades into the desert better than that sand/brownish that's sometimes used.

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (toadeater @ Jan. 05 2003,23:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Miles Teg @ Jan. 05 2003,20:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyhoo...  I stand by my opinion that the blue urban cammo in those Spetsnaz pics is crap cammo.  <span id='postcolor'>

Apparently it is some kind of standard international camo pattern because its used in the US too...maybe just for retail, but it exists:

There must be some reason it was made?<span id='postcolor'>

I just wanted to point out that blue cammo is also sometimes used as night camoflage. Not sure if that's the intended purpose of the blue uniform in those pics, but I just thought I'd point that out.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sigma-6 @ Jan. 06 2003,00:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm not going to add anyhting new to the argument, since I've stated my case, and I've got reality on my side.

I will re-iterate:

Look again at the photos. In some cases there is not much disruption going on, but in other cases, the camouflage is doing a better job than other urban patterns would, certainly better than woodland patterns. keep an eye to shadow, shade, tone and the disruptive quality of the pattern.

Regardless of whether you've trained people in camouflage or not (I took those courses, incidentally) You're still missing a few of the basic tenets of the theory.

Your UN assertions are off base and incorrect.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No doubt their are better camoflage patterns which is why the USMC seeks to replace theirs<span id='postcolor'>

The new USMC pattern is called MARPAT. It's an americanized version of the Canadian developed CADPAT. It's similar to the T/W pattern.

That being said, I'm not posting on this topic anymore.<span id='postcolor'>

I looked at the photos. I think the woodland uniforms blend in better in my own opinion. Maybe I'm color blind. Theory and reality are two different things. Yes reality is that Russian military forces use these uniforms. But if you think that everything the Russian Army does is foolproof and well thought out, then you might think again. If it's anything like any other Army in the world, they people (civilians and brass) in charge of weapons/equipment procurement that make some really stupid decisions on what gear soldiers should and shouldn't use.

As for my U.N. assertions which were offbase or incorrect? I basically agreed with you, and Ran basically set things straight on when U.N. forces wear the blue helmets/berets and when they don't at least from his experience with the U.N..

As for the MARPAT cammo yes it seems like great stuff. I'm sure it's quite a bit better then the older woodland cammo patterns used by U.S. armed forces currently as their standard uniform.

If you wish to argue over semantics and details then you're welcome to move this to PM as it's already gone way off topic.

All I asked was that Mailman made some models based on his Vityaz model that had Russian woodland cammo textures. They don't have to be Vityaz. They could be one of the other Spetsnaz groups as they all seem to use similar equipment. My apologies if that's too much to ask for.

Ultimately it's Mailman's decision as these are his soldiers.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[mailman76 0]

i'm retexturinx Vityaz units

http://http://flashpoint.ru/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=134187

if you're can see this

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (mailman76 @ Jan. 07 2003,11:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i'm retexturinx Vityaz units

http://http://flashpoint.ru/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=134187

if you're can see this <span id='postcolor'>

I can't see the page.  

I get a "This page can not be displayed" message.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[ExtracTioN 0]

here is correct link click here

[desantnik 0]

In case no one noticed but mailman has made Russian motor-rifle soldier: it can be downloaded on Flashpoint Ru

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (desantnik @ Jan. 08 2003,03:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In case no one noticed but mailman has made Russian motor-rifle soldier: it can be downloaded on Flashpoint Ru

<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah I tried them out. They are very good. Their uniforms are little bright, but still I think they are extremely good. I love the body armor on them. Very realistic looking.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[mailman76 0]

I'm retexturing Vityaz units (Town camo)

Direct link to DL

http://www.flashpoint.ru/addons/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=81

Is This camo better or not?

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (mailman76 @ Jan. 09 2003,01:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm retexturing Vityaz units (Town camo)

Direct link to DL

http://www.flashpoint.ru/addons/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=81

Is This camo better or not? <span id='postcolor'>

Yup. That looks better. Thanks for the hardwork!!!

Your units were badly needed in the game and very much appreciated!!! Your units and weapons coupled with the MT-LP and BTR-70 addons going up against the OFP resistance fighters make for very good missions simulating the war in Chechnya or for anti-terrorist missions. Keep up the great work!!!

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>