North korea warns us of "uncontrollable catastroph

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Dec. 24 2002,19:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The NK leaders know that.<span id='postcolor'>

So, what do they want them for?

Why throw the UN out now?

With Korea being a major supplier of missiles that can deliver a nuclear warhead to some slightly militant countries, do you see any danger of potential nuclear proliferation for fun and profit?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Dec. 24 2002,23:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You didnt, I did. Dont expect Iraqi forces to just sit their waiting to be killed.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, well then don't say I apparently think something if I didn't say it.

And you're right, they probably wont sit and wait to be killed, they'll probably surrender.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">He expected no one to take notice of him annexing a smaller nation. Besides, he was on the USA his nice people list till then<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">His people may have been starving, his army sure hasent. Remeber he is a dictator.... armed disgruntled and hungry armies can seriously shorten your time in office (and your live) is a dictator<span id='postcolor'>

Tell that to him. Besides, I doubt his army is volunteer.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well I dont know if you have ever gone in to the situation there locally in any depth but NK is quite good friends with china and has been supplied with SU-27's similar to china's. Which are the most modern Su-27's Even by russian standards ... so the avionics are bound to be good.<span id='postcolor'>

Not really. China made a copy of the SU-27 called the J-11, then probably sold them to North Korea as you've speculated. Now even if China copied the Soviet radar and avionics, and even if North Korea somehow managed to buy them, and somehow managed to maintain them, U.S. radar and avionics are probably superior. but that's just my ego talking.

We'll probably bomb them on the ground anyway.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW same thing about starving troops goes here .... The Current Kim (their leader) is a dictator.... it would be stupid of him to piss off the one force able of deposing him.<span id='postcolor'>

The question isn't whether or not he's willing to feed his troops, but capable of.

[Die Alive 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 24 2002,12:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">At this website (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap001127.html) there's a picture of the world at night.  Find North Korea.  It's just to the left of Japan, and, well, nort of South Korea.  Notice how dark it is?  Does this country look like it's using a bunch of nuclear power plants?

Doesn't to me.<span id='postcolor'>

How many North Koreans does it take to change a lightbulb?

Who cares, they go to bed hungry at night anyways.

But it's nice to see that the folks who are loyal to regime are getting fed with food aid.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No one really knows, however, how much donated food is diverted to the North Korean military, police, Communist Party officials, essential workers and those loyal to the regime.

The World Food Program argues that food aid is not going to the military because the military has the first cut from national harvests. But the agency has no evidence because there is no independent monitoring of donated food. As the main conduit of American aid, the World Food Program (WFP) has managed to increase the number of North Korean counties it can visit to 163, but its staff is barred from more than 40 and its visits everywhere are supervised. It cannot make random spot checks or bring its own Korean-language interpreters or visit farmers' markets where it could find out whether its food aid is being sold on the black market.

At a Congressional hearing this month, the World Food Program claimed to have a "reasonable degree of assurance" that the food was getting to those who need it. But others at the hearing strongly disagreed.

"Anyone who has sat and talked to the North Korean refugees would find it really difficult to believe the assurances of the WFP," Sophie Delaunay, North Korean project representative for Medecins Sans Frontieres, told Congress. In interviews by humanitarian groups and journalists in the past few years, refugees among the 100,000 to 200,000 who fled to China in search of food have said that they never got any donated food in North Korea and that the regime has denied food aid to those whose loyalty it questions.<span id='postcolor'>

Sauce err source

-=Die Alive=-

[zverushka 0]

A russian built Su-37 with thrust vector control arguably superior than that of the F-22, and long range missiles is far better than some chinese built junk based on an export model stripped doEÃŔÇu-27 that will fall apart in mid-air.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Dec. 24 2002,18:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They have been intending to reunite korea since the korean war stopped. They havent tried since. And they arent the only party in that region with nukes. The USA maintains a strong presence there and i'm pretty sure they have nukes in the area too along with the means to deliver them. One nuclear rocket armed sub in the region is enough .... besides the us their ICBM's can stike north korea from the us mainland.  Nukes dont give NK the key to reunification by force, using them would mean the destruction of both korea's. The NK leaders know that.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm sorry, I guess all those dozens of border skirmishes were really just simple misunderstandings. Maybe you should head over there right now and tell them that they aren't enemies any more! Now, let's get this straight: we don't need nukes in the region, because we can flatten North Korea from the cotiguous USA. That being said, we don't have any tactical nuclear weapons in South Korea or Japan (unless there's an aircraft carrier around). So, you are generally claiming that we can maintain a Cold War status quo with North Korea? Does that not seem just slightly unnacceptable, considering your general dislike of any US foreign politicking? Not to mention it will spur another arms race (not what North Korea's people need), complete with increased tensions with China, an increased US presence in the region, and a hundred other ramifications. And the icing on this wondeful little geopolitical cake you've cooked up? The possibility of 1 million South Koreans dying and 20 million North Koreans dying. And that is a best case scenario.

Now, if North Korea's leader's know this, and are peace loving, friendly individuals fully capable of being entrusted with nukes, why the border skirmishes? The DMZ? The need for an American infantry division to be in-country for the past 50 years? And now, the removal of UN monitors and the announcement they are commencing an enriched uranium program, AND this new press release. What exactly do you suppose that "uncontrollable catastrophe" might be?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Dec. 24 2002,18:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How many North Koreans does it take to change a lightbulb?

Who cares, they go to bed hungry at night anyways.<span id='postcolor'>

One more of these tasteless jokes and post restriction will follow.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 24 2002,20:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Dec. 24 2002,18:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How many North Koreans does it take to change a lightbulb?

Who cares, they go to bed hungry at night anyways.<span id='postcolor'>

One more of these tasteless jokes and post restriction will follow.<span id='postcolor'>

But this is no different than the Miami Herald, is it?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 24 2002,19:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But this is no different than the Miami Herald, is it? <span id='postcolor'>

It is. The Miami Herald's is political aimed as criticism towards the North Korean government. Die Alive's jokes target the people of North Korea in a way bordering to racism.

Also, as always if you have problems with my moderating decision, send me a PM

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 24 2002,20:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also, as always if you have problems with my moderating decision, send me a PM<span id='postcolor'>

I don't have problems with the decision, now that you've explained the distinction.

BTW, I still don't think that Die Alive meant anything other than the same as the cartoon above. If you have problems with my forum member handwriting analysis, scribble me a PM with a #2 pencil.

[theavonlady 2]

TV shows we'd love to see.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Die Alive's jokes target the people of North Korea in a way bordering to racism.<span id='postcolor'>

I knew you'd say that.

If he made the comment towards poor white people, it isn't racist. When he says it about poor Korean people, it somehow is?

I liked this one:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Think I'll go buy a ten pound bag of rice and throw it into a dumpster....   Merry Christmas North Korea.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL, arrogant but funny.  

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (zverushka @ Dec. 25 2002,00:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A russian built Su-37 with thrust vector control arguably superior than that of the F-22, and long range missiles is far better than some chinese built junk based on an export model stripped doEÃŔÇu-27 that will fall apart in mid-air.<span id='postcolor'>

I think Russia abandoned it's vectored thrust program. Not sure though.

Still those doEÃŔÇu-27s are deadly.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ Dec. 24 2002,12:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">http://www.cnn.com/2002....ex.html

WeIrD world.Too bad south korea is there ,because if it wasn't the US would have bomb NK long time ago.<span id='postcolor'>

is that US's solution to everything

nah, China would prevent that.

on serious note:

i find it extrememly funny that most of international communities didn't care about NK until now. during last few days of WorldCup, NK managed to attck SK navy patrol boats which resulted in 4 KIA in SK side, and possible 10 or more in NK part. this happened 2 years ago, too, but SK had no loss and NK lost 1 boat and possibly 20 ppl.

NK has been well known to send empty threats now and then. however, this time they are actually acting out of desperation. they were supposed to give up nuclear powerplants in exchange for heavy water. however, they broke

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ page 3)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">His people may have been starving, his army sure hasent. Remeber he is a dictator.... armed disgruntled and hungry armies can seriously shorten your time in office (and your live) is a dictator<span id='postcolor'>

actually, even army is suffering. it's been heard that military branches are encouraged to sow land at spare time. don't quote me on this, but i heard it from my korean friend.

furthermore, most NK citizens know that SK is a lot well off. stories from those who went to China and met SKoreans spread and NKoreans now know roughly how SK lives.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ page 3)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well I dont know if you have ever gone in to the situation there locally in any depth but NK is quite good friends with china and has been supplied with SU-27's similar to china's. Which are the most modern Su-27's Even by russian standards ... so the avionics are bound to be good. (Face it russia doesnt make crappy aircraft) Also these birds were delivered with a full complement of missiles (pays to be friends with china huh?) BTW same thing about starving troops goes here .... The Current Kim (their leader) is a dictator.... it would be stupid of him to piss off the one force able of deposing him. <span id='postcolor'>

they got Su-27s all right. just don't have fuels to fly them for training

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They have been intending to reunite korea since the korean war stopped. They havent tried since. And they arent the only party in that region with nukes. The USA maintains a strong presence there and i'm pretty sure they have nukes in the area too along with the means to deliver them. One nuclear rocket armed sub in the region is enough .... besides the us their ICBM's can stike north korea from the us mainland. Nukes dont give NK the key to reunification by force, using them would mean the destruction of both korea's. The NK leaders know that.

<span id='postcolor'>

nope. neither SK nor US forces in SK have nukes they were removed in early 90s. this point is agreed upon by even the most hardcore anti-US ppl. nuke GIVES NK an edge. last time some idiot from NK yelled 'We will turn Seoul into sea of flames" SK went on high alert. not to mention 2 naval clash i mentioned above. NK's doctrine still does not give up force a s the mean of unification.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Dec. 24 2002,19:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I liked this one:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Think I'll go buy a ten pound bag of rice and throw it into a dumpster....   Merry Christmas North Korea.<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

that's just sick.

[Othin 0]

As for the North Korean Air Force, please. They're so undertrained it's a joke. Most of you that have played many hours on a good flighth sim probably have a better chance then they would in a modern air war. Flight hours are next to nothing, modern tactics are non existant.

Not only that, but they have next to no concept of deconfliction and if they tried a SAMbush they would most likely end up shooting their own planes down. Much too dependant on GCI as well.

This is a non-topic. Move on.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ Dec. 24 2002,21:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most of you that have played many hours on a good flighth sim probably have a better chance then they would in a modern air war.<span id='postcolor'>

Thank G-d for the Spowith Camel addon!

[Die Alive 0]

Sorry for my humor, I was writing jokes for Jay Lenno to use on his show and I just thought that I post some of the better ones here. It was all in good humor.

-=Die Alive=-

[Necromancer- 0]

But seriously, NK doesn't have long range AA-missiles like the AIM-54 Phoenix.

I dont think NK would stand a chance against the SK's, Japanese and US military.

Think of it, only the top of the NK military command are motivated to resist. The rest would just surrender and may be even would join the allied forces against NK.

[dayglow 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 24 2002,12:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (zverushka @ Dec. 25 2002,000)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A russian built Su-37 with thrust vector control arguably superior than that of the F-22, and long range missiles is far better than some chinese built junk based on an export model stripped doEÃŔÇu-27 that will fall apart in mid-air.<span id='postcolor'>

I think Russia abandoned it's vectored thrust program.  Not sure though.

Still those doEÃŔÇu-27s are deadly.<span id='postcolor'>

Basically the SU-37 was a tech demonstrator, much like the paper launch of AMD cpus. They have the tech, but it isn't built yet.

As for NK SU-27 it is a formatble aircraft, but the training, tatics, supplies aren't there. The US pilots have been training and developing methods of beating a meduim range shot for ages. The NK probably don't have a readied program on how to defeat an active missile like the Slammer. On the other hand US would have tatics and methods of denying a long range shot from the SU-2&. Why? Because they have the money and fuel to train regularly and develope these defensives. Also they train against their own equipment, so if an active missile like the Slammer is fielded by the enemy, they already have 5+ years of working on defeating that kind of shot.

Plus the fact that C&C is way ahead for the US as well. NK doesn't have anything remotely with the capacities of an AWAC and remember detection is what wins the battle. Desert Storm was the infancy of this and that was 10 years ago. Basically any flight NK puts up will be seen and US fighters can be vectored into place to get a shot without being seen. I honestly don't think NK airforce is up to the task.

COLINMAN

[Lazarus_Long 0]

Jeesh, what the hell is wrong with these people? I don't understand why North Korea is trying to piss off the world like this. What do they have to gain from making these horrible threats? Is this Jong guy simply insane, or is there some part of the story that I havent read about? Sure, Bush's insult, calling them "evil" was a bit silly, but com'on...

Something does not add up here.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ Dec. 24 2002,22:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jeesh, what the hell is wrong with these people?  I don't understand why North Korea is trying to piss off the world like this.  What do they have to gain from making these horrible threats?  Is this Jong guy simply insane, or is there some part of the story that I havent read about?  Sure, Bush's insult, calling them "evil" was a bit silly, but com'on...

Something does not add up here.<span id='postcolor'>

more like lack of electricity. the primary reason that i see is that they are now taking seals off to restart their nuclear reactors to provide electricity. heavy water supply is now out of question when US stopped sending it, and NK is going "heck with it! we need electricity now!"

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ Dec. 24 2002,22:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jeesh, what the hell is wrong with these people?  I don't understand why North Korea is trying to piss off the world like this.  What do they have to gain from making these horrible threats?  Is this Jong guy simply insane, or is there some part of the story that I havent read about?  Sure, Bush's insult, calling them "evil" was a bit silly, but com'on...

Something does not add up here.<span id='postcolor'>

It could be an economic move. Both USA's and Russia's (and the rest of the world's for that matter) is unstable regimes with nuclear weapons. The North Korean people are poor and oppressed and a revolution is while unlikely, possible. So to ensure that the nukes don't get into the wrong hands the world will have to pump in money into NK to make sure that there is stability.

[digitalcenturion 20]

Damn you all darn americans and your goddamn overconfidence in your army. There has been several examples of how "good" it is not very long ago, for example Somalia, now this might be hard for you to accept, but even though the US won in the movie, they didnt in real-life. It just shows that, while your shiny pants special forces are nice, when cornered by greater number they too can crumble. And remember the only reason they performed as well as they did was because they were your best of the best and so forth. Ever wondered what would have happened if it had been standard US army soldiers instead of delta force and rangers and whatnot?

Another example of your great military and unfailing airwar is jugoslavia, in what was it 96, 98? oh well... There the serbs managed to down one of your F-117 stealth fighter with a SA-3 missile (year of introduction 1961) or possibly a SA-6 (1966). The reasons were poor flying skills and tactics on the US side (they used repetitive bomb flight paths).

And since russia now sells stuff to just about anyone, i dont doubt that China has SA-10 SAMs, and they have prolly passed along some info of those to the Koreans too. Besides if US decides to go to war with NK (i highly doubt it) what stops China from joining in. They have alot to gain if they win, and i have good reasons to believe that they are the dominant military power in the region.

To sum it up: the US military is a club of jackasses and cowboys who hasnt fought an even match since WW2.

Oh well...

I'll just go and buy a world trade center miniature now and play some Osama bin Laden airlines... merry christmas, New York and the rest of the USA

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 23 2002,19:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think it's pretty obvious now that NK is developing, or already has WMDs.  But for those who want more evidence to make this decision, look at this.

At this website (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap001127.html) there's a picture of the world at night.  Find North Korea.  It's just to the left of Japan, and, well, nort of South Korea.  Notice how dark it is?  Does this country look like it's using a bunch of nuclear power plants?

Doesn't to me.

Either way, with nuclear weapons in the hands of ANYBODY willing to use them, it's not going to be a merry Christmas.<span id='postcolor'>

That very bright little country in central Europe is Belgium

A rather small country but for some reason extremely visible at night

I bet we could build a lot of nukes

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 23 2002,19:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Dec. 24 2002,237)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Besides why is the USA allowed to have WMD's and, lets say, Iraq isnt? I personally dont find George W Bush all that stable a person and the thought of a man merely in office to serve big bussiness their interest commanding one of the largest nuclear arsenals in the world is not fun at best.<span id='postcolor'>

Because he would only use them in retalliation.  Saddam and whoever's leading NK now would use them in haste and in hate.<span id='postcolor'>

*sigh*

I need a drink, somethign pretty fucking strong!

Sure they would use them in haste and hate, but why do you think this haste and hate started in the first place?