The Iraq Thread

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 13 2002,15:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">During the '70 we had new terrorist attacks many times each year. Relative to our populations we certainly took a harder blow from that then the US did from the WTC attack. We managed however to get rid of the terrorists. And mind you, without invading any countries <span id='postcolor'>

But were they of a foreign source?

Yes I know about the IRA and the Red Army Faction (who blew up a car bomb in front of my Dad's work while we lived in Germany) and terrorists of that ilk. The home grown political terrorists bent on a "cause" ie the downfall of what they viewed as an unpopular government or continuing Imperialistic rule. These are the same as the so-called "militias" of the US, citizens going against their own government.

But what of foreign sourced terrorism? What foreign sourced attacks happened that were not originally targeted at Americans?

*I'm legitamately asking btw*

Merry Xmas. Saturnella, Kwanza, Hanakuh, etc etc etc

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">hasn't bombed Iraq<span id='postcolor'>

not true. check the link i posted pages ago. It shows you the bombings that happen since end of Desert Storm.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But were they of a foreign source?

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, as RAF members did cooperate with foreign terrorists, the hijack of Landshut, the german jet, that they brought to Mogadishu, was done by Palestinians to free imprisoned german RAF terrorists. Also Carlos may ring some bells in your brain.

You remember Munich olympic massacre ? Also done by foreign terrorists on our ground.

[BaronVonRed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

not true. check the link i posted pages ago. It shows you the bombings that happen since end of Desert Storm.

<span id='postcolor'>

You mean this.

Once again, you are trying to take things down to a overly simplistic level to make your counter attack easier, but it is ineffective. When I said (current) George hadn't bombed Iraq yet, I MEANT in the flavor of desert storm, an all-out war, etc, which if you read the post IN CONTEXT is pretty clear.

My statement was that a lot of people are arguing about this as though this event is in the past when in fact it hasn't and may not happen.

[Die Alive 0]

What is to be expected after the war on iraq?

More pointless, off-topic, propaganda, nation bashing, finger pointing, "I'm right, you're wrong", in my opinion, STFU, read the report, misinformation, get an education, biased, anti-democracy, bullshit threads.

-=Die Alive=-

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Dec. 13 2002,17:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">More pointless, off-topic, propaganda, nation bashing, finger pointing, "I'm right, you're wrong", in my opinion, STFU, read the report, misinformation, get an education, biased, anti-democracy, bullshit threads.

-=Die Alive=-<span id='postcolor'>

Thanks man, truly informative

[BaronVonRed 0]

Heh, heh, pretty much! I have acually learned some things, though, but it's mostly what you said!

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Dec. 13 2002,15:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes I know about the IRA and the Red Army Faction (who blew up a car bomb in front of my Dad's work while we lived in Germany) and terrorists of that ilk. The home grown political terrorists bent on a "cause" ie the downfall of what they viewed as an unpopular government or continuing Imperialistic rule. These are the same as  the so-called "militias" of the US, citizens going against their own government.

etc<span id='postcolor'>

It is a good point. We have however had our share of international terrorists too (remember München 1972? not to mention France's problems with Algerian terrorists). Also most of the as you call them 'home grown' terrorists were financed from other countries. For instance the Red Army Faction had its backings from East Germany and the Soviet Union.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Dec. 13 2002,17:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What is to be expected after the war on iraq?

More pointless, off-topic, propaganda, nation bashing, finger pointing, "I'm right, you're wrong", in my opinion, STFU, read the report, misinformation, get an education, biased, anti-democracy, bullshit threads.

-=Die Alive=-<span id='postcolor'>

If you have nothing to contribute, then don't post

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Once again, you are trying to take things down to a overly simplistic level to make your counter attack easier, but it is ineffective. When I said (current) George hadn't bombed Iraq yet, I MEANT in the flavor of desert storm, an all-out war, etc, which if you read the post IN CONTEXT is pretty clear.

<span id='postcolor'>

Haha very funny. I dont need to do counter attacks. But if your posts are clear and easy to understand you will not run into misunderstandings. That´s definately not my fault.

[Die Alive 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 13 2002,11:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Dec. 13 2002,17:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What is to be expected after the war on iraq?

More pointless, off-topic, propaganda, nation bashing, finger pointing, "I'm right, you're wrong", in my opinion, STFU, read the report, misinformation, get an education, biased, anti-democracy, bullshit threads.

-=Die Alive=-<span id='postcolor'>

If you have nothing to contribute, then don't post  <span id='postcolor'>

Just answering the question, man.

[Guest]

http://www.cnn.com/2002....ex.html

Hardly surprising, the Bush administration says that the 11000 page report is not complete enough. They must be very fast readers There is going to be a war, no matter what happens. That much is obvious.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 13 2002,17:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Dec. 13 2002,15:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes I know about the IRA and the Red Army Faction (who blew up a car bomb in front of my Dad's work while we lived in Germany) and terrorists of that ilk. The home grown political terrorists bent on a "cause" ie the downfall of what they viewed as an unpopular government or continuing Imperialistic rule. These are the same as the so-called "militias" of the US, citizens going against their own government.

etc<span id='postcolor'>

It is a good point. We have however had our share of international terrorists too (remember München 1972? not to mention France's problems with Algerian terrorists). Also most of the as you call them 'home grown' terrorists were financed from other countries. For instance the Red Army Faction had its backings from East Germany and the Soviet Union.<span id='postcolor'>

While not downplaying those events where they not primarily against Isrealis and not, say, the people of Germany? That is to say the Germans themselves were not targeted in random bombings or killings like in Isreal, or in sustained offensives.

I don't know about the French troubles (other than they were in a war in Algeria)...any links?

And Carlos I dont' really count. He maybe foreign but he was too sporadic and lacked the cohesion of a central cause.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Dec. 13 2002,18:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know about the French troubles (other than they were in a war in Algeria)...any links?<span id='postcolor'>

http://library.nps.navy.mil/home/tgp/chrono95.htm

http://www.emergency.com/frncboms.htm

was in paris at that time and believe me , i've heard the "bang"

[ran 0]

France

A series of terrorist incidents in France in 1995 appeared to be the work of Algerian extremists. In July a cofounder of the Algerian opposition group Islamic Salvation Front (FIS), Abdelbaki Sahraoui, was murdered in Paris. Suspicion focused on another Algerian opposition group, the Armed Islamic Group (GIA), which had earlier put Sahraoui on a "death list" for his supposed conciliatory posture toward the Algerian Government.

A blast on 25 July in a Paris metro station kicked off a campaign of eight bombings or attempted bombings in France. Eight people were killed and 160 wounded in the attacks, which were staged in train stations, markets, and other public places to maximize civilian casualties. Although there were various claims of responsibility for the blasts, suspicions centered on the violent Islamic opposition to the Algerian Government. Some commentators argued that the GIA wanted to punish the Government of France for its supposed support for the Algerian Government; others claimed that the bombings were in retribution for the killing of four Algerian hijackers of an Air France Airbus in December 1994.

French police achieved a breakthrough in September when they traced fingerprints found on an unexploded bombůdiscovered on high-speed train tracks near Lyonůto a French citizen of Algerian descent, Khaled Kelkal. The police killed Kelkal in a shootout later that month. In November fingerprints found on another unexploded device and other information led police to arrest several more people of North African descent, two of whom were formally charged with involvement in the bombings. There were no additional terrorist blasts in 1995 following these arrests. The French judiciary may reveal more about its understanding of the structure behind the crimes when the judicial cases against the accused come to trial.

In August assailants threw a molotov cocktail at a Turkish sporting and cultural association in Paris, injuring six and causing minor damage. The Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) probably is responsible.

that's only for the year 1995 , i won't talk to you about the Algeria war period there would be way too much to say

[Lazarus_Long 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 13 2002,18:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">http://www.cnn.com/2002....ex.html

Hardly surprising, the Bush administration says that the 11000 page report is not complete enough. They must be very fast readers   There is going to be a war, no matter what happens. That much is obvious.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes I have to agree with you there. Any statements like that at this point seems a bit premature.

This report thing was a big waste of time if you ask me. What did people expect from these papers anyway. If Iraq did have a nuclear weapons program (I'm sure they at least tried to), does anyone think Saddam is dumb enough to leave incriminating evidence of it in a report like this? Please!

Lets hope the inspections work out better.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Dec. 12 2002,18:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What is to be expected after the war on iraq?

More pointless, off-topic, propaganda, nation bashing, finger pointing, "I'm right, you're wrong", in my opinion, STFU, read the report, misinformation, get an education, biased, anti-democracy, bullshit threads.

-=Die Alive=-<span id='postcolor'>

To my great surprise, this is one of the best damn answers on this forum.

ps: Can i say fuck on this forum? Because i wanted to say "one of the best fucking answers", sounds rather nice if you ask me. If i can't say fuck, feel free to delete my ps...

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Dec. 13 2002,20:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ps: Can i say fuck on this forum? Because i wanted to say "one of the best fucking answers", sounds rather nice if you ask me.  If i can't say fuck, feel free to delete my ps...<span id='postcolor'>

Just don't fucking ask and don't fucking overdo it!

[FSPilot 0]

If you ask me, the only way to solve our problems as a society is to help each other instead of just looking our for ourselves.

My opinion anyway.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,12:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let me put it this way, if you take an innocent life, you just used up whatever value yours had.

But what about the inocents

in Afghanistan?.<span id='postcolor'>

The differences are (1) we didn't intentionally target noncombatants (a small consolation I realize, but that's war, and intentions do matter), and even more simplistically, (2) we didn't start the fight.  If a government starts a war, or sponsors and trains a terrorist group that starts one, that government bears the responsibility for its civilian deaths.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,12:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And let me take you back to Bart. Jan's post: <snip> "I would hate them and in furute probably fight against them. Not only becasue of brainwashing but because I'm not so cool blooded that I can stand deaths of my family, friends and their friends because of some "high morale goal".<span id='postcolor'>

This applies to us, too.  Believe it or not, we didn’t attack Afghanistan because we’re brainwashed, bloodthirsty, confused, or oil-hungry.  We attacked Afghanistan because THAT’S WHERE THE TERRORISTS WERE.  The Taliban sponsored AQ and they are paying the price for their decision.  Would you prefer us to sit on our hands and nicely ask AQ to stop while they carry out their "high moral goal" of killing civilians (not just Americans, remember) because they don't like the fact that we've been permitted to base in the Middle East?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,12:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you would read the report I posted perhaps you would think differently about the isolationist position the US had...but ah fuck it, it's all anti-US propaganda right?<span id='postcolor'>

You mean the report where Blum (author of the obviously unbiased Rogue State:  A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower) refers to the bombing sorties the U.S. flew during the Gulf War as “terrorism?† Where in the report is U.S. isolationism in the first half of the twentieth century even mentioned?  I’ll save you the trouble of re-reading it:  It’s not.  At all.  The report seems to specifically focus on U.S. misdeeds after 1945.  (Don’t misunderstand me, I’ll be the first to admit that some of the steps taken by the U.S. to contain communism were wrong.  I’ll also be the first to say that in comparison to some of the atrocities committed in the name of communism, the alternative was worse.)  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,12:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Guantanamo, Cuba. They've been asking you to leave since 1959 <span id='postcolor'>

As long as (1) we keep paying the agreed-upon $2k/year in gold and (2) don't agree to modify the previously agreed to terms of occupancy, we're legally justified to stay in Gitmo as long as we like.  So to summarize:  Neener, neener, neener!  

Semper Fi

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 13 2002,15:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3) Until you European blokes experience a terrorist attack resulting in heavy civilian casualties, refrain from criticizing the US for taking preemptive defensive measures. It took a terrorist attack on an Aussie resort in Southeast Asia to convince the Aussies that indeed this "threat" is a problem and the perpetraitors must be destroyed. And let's not forget the French oil tanker that was attacked. That was a rude awakening for France.<span id='postcolor'>

As an Aussie, let me just point out that while Australia was indeed shaken by this attack, but by the same measure, wasn't howling for blood and demanding we invade some country without any real evidence of where the attackers originated. Most Australian citizens view this attack as a direct result of our PM John Howard bootlicking to Bush and declaring alliance to an attack on Iraq.

Maybe that what US citizens should do, instead of just being interested in revenge, maybe look at what actions of the goverment prompted the attack.

If you really can't see how wrong the foreign policies of America in the last 25 years or so have been, then you are simply fooling yourself. Setting up puppet dictators, funding terrorist organizations when they happen to have a mutual enemy, dictating world trade policy to their own benefit...

[Tovarish 0]

7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Dec. 14 2002,037)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The differences are (1) we didn't intentionally target noncombatants (a small consolation I realize, but that's war, and intentions do matter), and even more simplistically, (2) we didn't start the fight. If a government starts a war, or sponsors and trains a terrorist group that starts one, that government bears the responsibility for its civilian deaths.<span id='postcolor'>

I know it's not intentional, but you are right, it is a small consolation, and as to not having started it, my main argument is that US foreign policy may have provoked it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

This applies to us, too. Believe it or not, we didn’t attack Afghanistan because we’re brainwashed, bloodthirsty, confused, or oil-hungry. We attacked Afghanistan because THAT’S WHERE THE TERRORISTS WERE. The Taliban sponsored AQ and they are paying the price for their decision. Would you prefer us to sit on our hands and nicely ask AQ to stop while they carry out their "high moral goal" of killing civilians (not just Americans, remember) because they don't like the fact that we've been permitted to base in the Middle East?

<span id='postcolor'>

You know, I first supported this war in Afghanistan, my main gripe is the way it is being expanded and how the word "terrorist" is being overused. Face it, most of the people the US is fighting there right now likely never comitted an act of terrorism, they're just trying to defend what's theirs. That said, Yes, I do realize it's war and they are an enemy.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

You mean the report where Blum (author of the obviously unbiased Rogue State: A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower) refers to the bombing sorties the U.S. flew during the Gulf War as “terrorism?†Where in the report is U.S. isolationism in the first half of the twentieth century even mentioned? I’ll save you the trouble of re-reading it: It’s not. At all. The report seems to specifically focus on U.S. misdeeds after 1945.

<span id='postcolor'>

Not the best example, I'll admit, but 1945 is technically still in the first half. (I only mention this because of your technicality about the Guantanamo base which I will get to, but yep, you can ignore it if you wish as a bad example). I'll give you a better one - Manifest Destiny and it's impact in Latin America.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 13 2002,12:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Guantanamo, Cuba. They've been asking you to leave since 1959 <span id='postcolor'>

As long as (1) we keep paying the agreed-upon $2k/year in gold and (2) don't agree to modify the previously agreed to terms of occupancy, we're legally justified to stay in Gitmo as long as we like. So to summarize: Neener, neener, neener!

<span id='postcolor'>

Agreed upon with Batista, not in any way relevant with today's government. Anyone will tell you that $2000 a year for a piece of land big enough to hold a military base is the biggest real estate ripoff in the planet, and furthermore, Cuba has refused to cash in those payments since 1959, and has continually protested US presense there. And hey, I'll give it to you, it's "legal", it's one of the dirtiest legalities I've ever seen, but sure, ok, it's totally legit. But it does make your previous quote:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If we were ever to use FORCE to remain in a host country, which has NEVER happened, you’d have grounds for an argument.<span id='postcolor'>

Complete and utter bullshit, since you are occupying a country's sovereign land against the direct wishes of it's government. The Cubans can't very well just kick you out either, no, that would be "communist agression" and would result in "Bay of Pigs part 2", likely without the pullout the first one featured.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ previous post)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most Australian citizens view this attack as a direct result of our PM John Howard bootlicking to Bush and declaring alliance to an attack on Iraq.

<span id='postcolor'>

from CNN.com(Nov. 22nd)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Samudra told investigators nightclubs on the resort island were targeted because they were frequented by foreigners -- specifically, he believed, Americans. <span id='postcolor'>

they don't give a squat whether you hold Austrailian passport or US. as long as you look like American( ) they will kill you indiscrimantly.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Dec. 14 2002,03:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Maybe that what US citizens should do, instead of just being interested in revenge, maybe look at what actions of the goverment prompted the attack.

If you really can't see how wrong the foreign policies of America in the last 25 years or so have been, then you are simply fooling yourself. Setting up puppet dictators, funding terrorist organizations when they happen to have a mutual enemy, dictating world trade policy to their own benefit...<span id='postcolor'>

Thank You Fubar, that is exactly what i've been trying to say all this time, in a nutshell.

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 13 2002,23:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you ask me, the only way to solve our problems as a society is to help each other instead of just looking our for ourselves.

My opinion anyway.

<span id='postcolor'>

interesting

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Dec. 14 2002,03:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Dec. 14 2002,038)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Maybe that what US citizens should do, instead of just being interested in revenge, maybe look at what actions of the goverment prompted the attack.

If you really can't see how wrong the foreign policies of America in the last 25 years or so have been, then you are simply fooling yourself. Setting up puppet dictators, funding terrorist organizations when they happen to have a mutual enemy, dictating world trade policy to their own benefit...<span id='postcolor'>

Thank You Fubar, that is exactly what i've been trying to say all this time, in a nutshell.<span id='postcolor'>

actually that pretty much sums what other countries are doing too.