The Iraq Thread

[FSPilot 0]

I guess you didn't see when he banned someone for racist remarks against Americans.

[NurEinMensch 0]

Maybe that's a strange idea for the "either with us or against us" thinkers, but the "us-bashers" :rolleyes: on this board will be there when america really needs them.

They just don't like it when america rushes into war adventures that seem not to be justified.

[FSPilot 0]

I understand that we simply have a difference of opinion, but I think they'd be rushing into war too if their balls were on the wire like this.

[joltan 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 11 2002,23:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lol, that was a very very minor rebellion in the north. Not a civil war.<span id='postcolor'>

Don't forget the south, where it was much worse then in the north. The uprising in Basra and other southern cities with mainly shiite population was completely and brutaly crushed by Sadam.

BBC infos on the uprisings

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">According to the US, which has been criticised for allowing Saddam Hussein to continue using the military helicopters, between 30,000 and 60,000 people were killed.<span id='postcolor'>

'Minor' uprising???

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 12 2002,03:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Racism will not be tolerated in these forums. Consider yourself permanently banned.<span id='postcolor'>

Why THANK YOU Mr. Denoir!

And as for the heathen! ppphhppppttt!!

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (joltan @ Dec. 12 2002,14:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 11 2002,23:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lol, that was a very very minor rebellion in the north. Not a civil war.<span id='postcolor'>

Don't forget the south, where it was much worse then in the north. The uprising in Basra and other southern cities with mainly shiite population was completely and brutaly crushed by Sadam.

BBC infos on the uprisings

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">According to the US, which has been criticised for allowing Saddam Hussein to continue using the military helicopters, between 30,000 and 60,000 people were killed.<span id='postcolor'>

'Minor' uprising???<span id='postcolor'>

To be fair...

I would have to term it a "rebellion" as well. A Civil War implies civil population versus civil population. A country divided against itself. That was not the case here. The uprising was directed soley at the authority and government leadership. Some rose up, some kept their heads down. They all got screwed though.

Ah semantics...:O comes from the Clinton years!

I remember when we encouraged the uprising, and then a la Bay Of Pigs pulled back support. Think we would have learned something from that. It's going to be a hundred times harder to convince the same people to rise up again and that we AREN'T going to leave their cheese in the wind again. Hell they just might just give us the finger and turn away. We missed a GOLDEN oppurtunity in '91/'92, and now once again it is biting us squarely in the ass.

Oh yeah...and Happy Holidays to everyone!

[FSPilot 0]

At least this time we won't pull out. If we go to war, Saddam is coming out before the war is over. So they won't have anyone to fight.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 12 2002,00:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Better yet why don't you research it...<span id='postcolor'>

Nope, that's your job.<span id='postcolor'>

Excuse me?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I told you I have not looked into it, and I am not saying it is absolutely true, I give my info usually without sources, which is funny, because the U.S. claims it can not reveal it's info because it's sources will be revealed...<span id='postcolor'>

Don't tell me I have to explain what the term "top secret" means to someone with Albert Einstein for their avatar.

The U.S. isn't revealing their sources because if they do, their undercover

<span id='postcolor'>

Oh boy.... once again, some members on this forum leave me saying.... nothing.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(actually now I remember, I saw that on an interview with some high ranking Iraqi official, not long ago. research it)<span id='postcolor'>

Again, your job.<span id='postcolor'> You think so... ever wondered what the word truth means and why it is important to reality?

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 12 2002,18:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(actually now I remember, I saw that on an interview with some high ranking Iraqi official, not long ago. research it)<span id='postcolor'>

Again, your job.<span id='postcolor'> You think so... ever wondered what the word truth means and why it is important to reality?<span id='postcolor'>

You ever wonder what exactly constitutes "the truth"?

Why is it that you are so quick to believe an "Iraqi official" who claims they are arming the populace of Iraq and yet you don't believe anything the US says? What? Because Iraq has never lied or sent out their own propoganda, right?

Stop and think of the resources and sheer amount of arms needed to arm the populace and tell me if this is crediable.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh boy....  once again, some members on this forum leave me saying.... nothing.<span id='postcolor'>

Yet you go ahead and still say things.

The reason Bush has not revealed the information is because it's classified.  That means that only a select group of people can see it for whatever reason they have.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(actually now I remember, I saw that on an interview with some high ranking Iraqi official, not long ago.  research it)<span id='postcolor'>

Again, your job.<span id='postcolor'>  You think so... ever wondered what the word truth means and why it is important to reality?<span id='postcolor'>

Truth or not.  If you cite someone you need to be prepared to name your source.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 12 2002,12:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I told you I have not looked into it, and I am not saying it is absolutely true, I give my info usually without sources, which is funny, because the U.S. claims it can not reveal it's info because it's sources will be revealed...<span id='postcolor'>

Don't tell me I have to explain what the term "top secret" means to someone with Albert Einstein for their avatar.

The U.S. isn't revealing their sources because if they do, their undercover

<span id='postcolor'>

Oh boy.... once again, some members on this forum leave me saying.... nothing.

<span id='postcolor'>

Yet you go ahead and still say things.

The reason Bush has not revealed the information is because it's classified. That means that only a select group of people can see it for whatever reason they have.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(actually now I remember, I saw that on an interview with some high ranking Iraqi official, not long ago. research it)<span id='postcolor'>

Again, your job.<span id='postcolor'> You think so... ever wondered what the word truth means and why it is important to reality?<span id='postcolor'>

Truth or not. If you cite someone you need to be prepared to name your source.<span id='postcolor'>

No I don't, I'm trying to help you people reason some things out, I don't have time to prove everything to everyone. I am not the official opposition to anyone, I am not obligated to provide you with proof of my statements, I can insist on them and you can disagree, it is up to you.

I actually said nothing to your "top secret" logic...

Ok, I think I'm done talking to the patriots, you think this is a school debate about winning while I think it's about morals, truth, and doing the right thing.

[BaronVonRed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Dec. 12 2002,18:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why is it that you are so quick to believe an "Iraqi official" who claims they are arming the populace of Iraq and yet you don't believe anything the US says? What? Because Iraq has never lied or sent out their own propoganda, right?<span id='postcolor'>

Bullseye.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BaronVonRed @ Dec. 12 2002,12:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Dec. 12 2002,18:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why is it that you are so quick to believe an "Iraqi official" who claims they are arming the populace of Iraq and yet you don't believe anything the US says? What? Because Iraq has never lied or sent out their own propoganda, right?<span id='postcolor'>

Bullseye.<span id='postcolor'>

More like bullshit.

To quote myself

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I told you I have not looked into it, and I am not saying it is absolutely true, <span id='postcolor'>

Thanks, and bye bye.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 12 2002,23:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am not obligated to provide you with proof of my statements<span id='postcolor'>

Then we're not obligated to believe you or even take you seriously.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, I think I'm done talking to the patriots, you think this is a school debate about winning while I think it's about morals, truth, and doing the right thing.

<span id='postcolor'>

It doesn't matter what people think this argument is about. If you go around saying things that have absolutely no proof or even a source to back them up then it isn't even a debate, it's just rumors.

By your logic I could say that U.S. forces and Saddam Hussein danced the macarena last night. Don't ask me for proof because that just makes it a school debate about winning.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 12 2002,18:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok, I think I'm done talking to the patriots, you think this is a school debate about winning while I think it's about morals, truth, and doing the right thing.<span id='postcolor'>

And yet you use that as the basis for saying that the Iraqi people aren't oppressed.

As FSPilot says....statements without sources or some sort of correlating truth are meaningless.

And I thought this was a debate about opposing view points as any debate is. According to you its about "...morals, truth, and doing the right thing"....but to you anyone who disagrees or has a differing view point has none of the above. What? Is YOUR "truth and morals" the only right ones?

And who are you to say what "doing the right thing" is? What if Iraq ISN'T attacked and Saddam a year, 5 years, or a decade from now gasses more people....is your "right thing" STILL the right thing? Then I bet you will be right back here (assuming the forums are still here) saying the US should have attacked and "done the right thing". What if Saddam is attacked? Is a few years of misery and human deaths a proper trade off for what could be years or decades of peace and stability?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

oh boy, there is too much wannabe justification for a war out there. Too many slogans such as "war against terorism" and "saddams weapons of mass-destruction" and "defend our country". Too many pragmatic people out there that think that a strong key can open all locks!

There is this pressure for fast initiative, the willingness to pay back!

The entire worldorder is moving backward and this pretty quickly without people noticing it.

It is not about war or not war, it is about being able to think longterm and estimate consequences. If the US attacks Iraq then the consequences will be hard to forecast, cause chainreactions in general are hard to forecast!

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Dec. 12 2002,14:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">oh boy, there is too much wannabe justification for a war out there. Too many slogans such as "war against terorism" and "saddams weapons of mass-destruction" and "defend our country". Too many pragmatic people out there that think that a strong key can open all locks!

There is this pressure for fast initiative, the willingness to pay back!

The entire worldorder is moving backward and this pretty quickly without people noticing it.

It is not about war or not war, it is about being able to think longterm and estimate consequences. If the US attacks Iraq then the consequences will be hard to forecast, cause chainreactions in general are hard to forecast!<span id='postcolor'>

I agree, the sudden change of policies is beginning to put the world back to 1940 status.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 12 2002,21:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Dec. 12 2002,14:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">oh boy, there is too much wannabe justification for a war out there. Too many slogans such as "war against terorism" and "saddams weapons of mass-destruction" and "defend our country". Too many pragmatic people out there that think that a strong key can open all locks!

There is this pressure for fast initiative, the willingness to pay back!

The entire worldorder is moving backward and this pretty quickly without people noticing it.

It is not about war or not war, it is about being able to think longterm and estimate consequences. If the US attacks Iraq then the consequences will be hard to forecast, cause chainreactions in general are hard to forecast!<span id='postcolor'>

I agree, the sudden change of policies is beginning to put the world back to 1940 status. <span id='postcolor'>

How so? Please elaborate...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

First I want my pizza to be done and then I will eat it and if I liked it I will answer!

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Dec. 12 2002,22:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">First I want my pizza to be done and then I will eat it and if I liked it I will answer! <span id='postcolor'>

Seems fair enough....

Your damn sig makes me long for a good ol' jaegerschnitzel

DAMN YOU!

[FSPilot 0]

If we don't go to war they'll attack us.

If we do go to war, they'll attack us.

Seems like we should eliminate all the threats we can as best we can.

Unless, of course, one of you can come up with a better solution?

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 12 2002,23:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If we don't go to war they'll attack us.

If we do go to war, they'll attack us.

Seems like we should eliminate all the threats we can as best we can.

Unless, of course, one of you can come up with a better solution?<span id='postcolor'>

Added irony:

If we do nothing we are criticized...

If we go to action we are criticized...

But its no point in continuing. Seems most everyone gave up, left, or stormed off in a huff...

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Dec. 12 2002,23:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If we do nothing we are criticized...

If we go to action we are criticized...<span id='postcolor'>

It is the combination of those two: Doing nothing in some cases and going to action in other.

In one moment ignoring the international comunity ("What International Crime Court? We have our own laws") and in the second demanding of everybody to follow your lead ("We must all unite against the terrorist threat against us .. etc").

[Bart.Jan 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 12 2002,23:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If we don't go to war they'll attack us.

If we do go to war, they'll attack us.

Seems like we should eliminate all the threats we can as best we can.

Unless, of course, one of you can come up with a better solution?<span id='postcolor'>

This would be "good" example for India and any other country that has problem with another country. They'll destroy opponent before they will be destroyed.

I think the war is the very last solution to solve some problem. And if war is inevitable - there shoud be more then one country (which wants war) to affirm that war is only possible solution.

I don't agree with US-Iraq war. From what I read generally, I think it's war for oil only. Regardles what I think, if UN said war is ok, it's better for me - because I hope US has not so big influence on UN - that it will be their decision based on good proofs.

I, personally, can not accept : "We must go figt, but we can not tell you why because it's confidential."

[Bart.Jan 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BaronVonRed @ Dec. 04 2002,16:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't think bombing the entire country is the best answer, but how else can we stop the military there? A lot of their military resources are intentionally located in or near civilian areas.

Shut down the military, remove him from office, eduacte the people.<span id='postcolor'>

I give you my personal opinion :

As a child I lived in comunistic Czechoslovakia. There was, and is, good education system so people was educated. It was reign of terror but majority of people doesn't know or they didn't want to know. Every elections comunistic party has 100%(! of all votes. Everything seems to be correct. I thought west imperialistic countries are our enemies because they want to destroy our prospering happy country and I has only one planned future - as member of communist party. I thought it's only one good way. Our problem was solved peacefully over time.

But if there were some "liberators" that came to our country, killing our citizens, bombing our factories, towns (many military resources was located near towns) I would hate them and in furute probably fight against them. Not only becasue of brainwashing but because I'm not so cool blooded that I can stand deaths of my family, friends and their friends because of some "high morale goal".

If there will be US-Iraq war and US wins, I think there will be little of true happy Iraq citizens. I think there will be needed really big propaganda (another brainwashing) to convice common citizens that US armed forces killed them for their own good.