The Iraq Thread

[Aeon 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blake @ April 09 2003,13:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Saddam's Reich is falling clearly - people cheering on the streets of Baghdad  

Let the party begin...<span id='postcolor'>

<s>Reich</s> King Saddam's private party began

...at Menphis

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ April 09 2003,18:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ZIKAN @ April 09 2003,18:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But there is a time and a place for everything, and that was the wrong moment to fly the American flag like they did. Hopefully no harm done and it wont detract from what the coalition has achieved.<span id='postcolor'>

Concur.  I was wincing as I watched the flag being passed up.  "No, no, nooo..."<span id='postcolor'>

Why did the allied forces need to bring US flags to Iraq in the first place?  I don't recall seeing even one Union Jack, so far.  ...And please don't say, "to avoid being shot at by your own side."

I think the military leaders should have announced a clear and limited set of conditions whereby a non-Iraqi flag could be hoisted while on Iraqi soil.

[Guest]

I think I know now why the Iraqis lost the war. Check the Returers video called "Saddam Statue". Notice how after the statue has fallen people throw shoes at the statue. Notice especially their inability to hit it from a distance less then 2m

[Tex -USMC- 0]

This reminds me of an interview given by Tom Brokaw months ago that I saw. He had been in Baghdad, and was able to speak with a few Iraqis when his government minder got distracted. One of the conversations went a little like this:

Tom: "How do you feel about president Hussein?"

Iraqi"Saddam is our beloved leader!!please come and kill him."

Tom: "What do you think about the threat of war with America?"

Iraqi:"Ha! We will fight and kill the Americans in the streets of Iraq!!!They will be very welcome here"

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 09 2003,12:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think I know now why the Iraqis lost the war. Check the Returers video called "Saddam Statue". Notice how after the statue has fallen people throw shoes at the statue. Notice especially their inability to hit it from a distance less then 2m <span id='postcolor'>

I watched some fighting from the Iraqi side like I said, they have no concept of patience and surprize. Which is what they desperately need to have with their odds. Their courage was pretty amazing. One thing is for sure, many ppl. in Baghdad really did have AK's, so I don't know how they couldn't organize a revolution sort of speak. Also do not know why they did not train to use hte weapons properly, what's the point.

What I want to say about the celebrations in Baghdad alone: There were circa 7 Million people in Baghdad, according to CentCom thousands were killed that opposed Ango-American forces, the rest that oppose them simply will not show up to a parade of 500 people to get shot by M1A1's etc. So what I'm wondering is, how many Iraqis from Baghdad (looking at original pop.) accept the foregneirs (% wise). If they do not they could simply not show up at the parade... also I think many Iraqis (vast majority) will simply adapt to the change of what they may see as a new regime; simply accept that someone else is runing the show.

Hopefully, around 70% of the original Baghdad population wanted US over Saddam. Something good could actually come out of the deaths and destruction.

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ April 09 2003,19:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I watched some fighting from the Iraqi side like I said, they have no concept of patience and surprize.  Which is what they desperately need to have with their odds.  Their courage was pretty amazing.  One thing is for sure, many ppl. in Baghdad really did have AK's, so I don't know how they couldn't organize a revolution sort of speak.  Also do not know why they did not train to use hte weapons properly, what's the point.<span id='postcolor'>

Bn880, has it occurred to you that there was no "revolution" against Saddam's regime because it was actually repressive and evil to the point where the Iraqi people lived in absolute fear of it? I hope it should also conversely occur to people that all those armed Iraqis could have just as easily decided to shoot their AK's at the Coalition forces. The fact that they have not done so, I think says quite a lot.

Lets hope that we can get these people back on their feet again and get the hell out of there before they come to resent us. The last thing the Coalition needs to do is present the image of being an occupying force. Flying the American flag wasn't too bright, those troops should have flown the pre-Saddam Iraqi flag instead.

[Maddas Niessuh 0]

All infidel lies! Those are doctored pictures made in the Hollywood! I even saw George Clooney in the background! The glorious leader is in charge and the mercenary assssassssinss have all dug their own graves! They will be killed until they die.

[Longinius 1]

The square outside my apartment is packed with Iraqis and their cars... Cars honking and flashing lights, people singing, dancing and waving flags.

I wonder when the riotpolice will get here, I can hardly hear my TV. They are interfering with FRIENDS damnit...

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 09 2003,20:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wonder when the riotpolice will get here,<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, tear gas those happy bastards!

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 09 2003,14:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bn880, has it occurred to you that there was no "revolution" against Saddam's regime because it was actually repressive and evil to the point where the Iraqi people lived in absolute fear of it?<span id='postcolor'>

What do you think?

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 09 2003,20:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 09 2003,20:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wonder when the riotpolice will get here,<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, tear gas those happy bastards!    <span id='postcolor'>

no ... a few could get respiratory (sp ?) problems , just use rubber bullets and flahbangs

[-iCeMaN- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Maddas Niessuh @ April 09 2003,14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All infidel lies! Those are doctored pictures made in the Hollywood! I even saw George Clooney in the background!  <!--emo& The glorious leader is in charge and the mercenary assssassssinss have all dug their own graves! They will be killed until they die.  <span id='postcolor'>

They will be killed until they die eh?

Makes a lot of sense...

-iCe-

[Jinef 2]

Respiratory is spelt correctly, i'm pretty sure.

Darklight, i didn't want this war in the first place but that's irrelevant now, i still think however that the coalition is going to have a hard time suppresing any resistance to it's presence until it establishes an Iraqi goverment with enough power to control the dissident factions that will now spring up taking their chance in this window of opportunity.

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ April 09 2003,09:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Concur.  I was wincing as I watched the flag being passed up.  "No, no, nooo..."

Semper Fi<span id='postcolor'>

I definately winced when I saw that, but I don't think it was done in a ill spirited manner.  It was nice when they put the old Iraqi flag up instead.

It also is awesome to see the Iraqi's in Michigan having a celebration waving both the Iraqi AND American flags.  An interesting tidbit that it's next to impossible to find any Union Jacks over here right now.  People have been buying them up and displaying them with American Flags.

But, we're ending up the easy part, and beginning the hard part.  There is still fighting ahead, possibly even greater battles then so far in the war.  Tikrit is still ahead of us.  But I think the change in the majority of Iraqi people is happening.  They won't be as likely to shelter or support the forces that continue to fight for the regime.  

One of the first tasks is that we must get all of the civilian Police and Medical services back up and running again.  The police are going to be a challenge unto themselves since most of the old police were involved with the regime in one way or another, so we can't use them.  This means using Coalition forces (ok short term, bad long term) or training new police forces (hard short term best long term).  

Getting electricity, water, and food routes back to cities must become our new campaign for the forseeable future as well.  The civilian infrastructure was mostly left untouched, so the water and electricity shouldn't be as much of a challenge compared to getting food to the people, and distributing it fairly.  The Bakery system in Baghdad should be modeled elsewhere in the country as this seemed to work pretty well under pressure and reduced supplies.

We must also help the Iraqi's stand up their government in the best and quickest way possible. It has to be legitimate, representative for everyone, and modeled how the Iraqi's want it. Not how Americans, Brits, French, Syrians, or anyone else wants it.

EDITED because it posted before I was done.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 08 2003,19:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ April 09 2003,18:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So Baghdad has fallen <span id='postcolor'>

Didn't think I'd see that for another two weeks at least.<span id='postcolor'>

I thought that it was going to happen on Monday the 14th. I've had some disturbing parallel development here. You see, they are changing the plumming in my building and they started the same day that the war started. The reached my floor the same day that US troops entered Baghdad.  My appartment is going to get invaded on 14/4 so I assumed that it would happen something similar in Baghdad <span id='postcolor'>

You should join the cops, i'm sure they could use a master brain like you!

[Guest]

I've been watching several US new channels today. From that and from what Americans posted here I find it very cute and uplifting how Americans are really truly happy for the Iraqi people. That the celebrations in Baghdad really triggered a genuine emotional response. I get the feeling that the general sentiment is that in every person in the world there is an American trapped just waiting to get out and that the Iraqis now have their chance

In Europe, while everybody agrees that this is great for the Iraqi people, the response is more ... moderate. I think Longinius expressed this best:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 09 2003,20:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

The square outside my apartment is packed with Iraqis and their cars... Cars honking and flashing lights, people singing, dancing and waving flags.

I wonder when the riotpolice will get here.

<span id='postcolor'>

[Schoeler 0]

Well, contrary to a lot of the bullshit propaganda that has been flying around recently, Americans are not a warmongering evil people, we will however fight to the death to make sure others are free. And I'm not referring to the motivations of our administration, whatever those might have been. I'm referring to the reason the majority of Americans supported the war, to rid Iraq of a brutal dictator and free the Iraqi people. I hope our politicians don't manage to fuck this up.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 09 2003,23:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">we will however fight to the death to make sure others are free<span id='postcolor'>

That is what I would call "bullshit propaganda" . Please let me know when you will invade Burma and free it's people!

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 09 2003,23:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm referring to the reason the majority of Americans supported the war, to rid Iraq of a brutal dictator and free the Iraqi people.<span id='postcolor'>

Really? And silly me thought it was about terrorism and WMD.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 10 2003,00:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 09 2003,23:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm referring to the reason the majority of Americans supported the war, to rid Iraq of a brutal dictator and free the Iraqi people.<span id='postcolor'>

Really? And silly me thought it was about terrorism and WMD.  <span id='postcolor'>

The Bush administration will take what it can get.

[Schoeler 0]

3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 10 2003,003)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 09 2003,23:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">we will however fight to the death to make sure others are free<span id='postcolor'>

That is what I would call "bullshit propaganda" . Please let me know when you will invade Burma and free it's people!<span id='postcolor'>

Take it as what you want, but thats how most Americans feel, its not bullshit to us, and we can't exactly force our government to enter Burma any more than you can force your government to do so.  Don't be surprised if this war sets a pattern for world politics far into the future.  Though personally I would like to see any wars avoided at all costs.

Edit: On a side note, I'm glad I don't live in a cynical country that doesn't seem to believe in anything, and is unwilling to act upon any of its beliefs. It must be terrible to see emotions like patriotism and the desire to spread freedom throughout the world as "bullshit propaganda".

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 09 2003,22:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In Europe, while everybody agrees that this is great for the Iraqi people, the response is more ... moderate. I think Longinius expressed this best:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 09 2003,20:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

The square outside my apartment is packed with Iraqis and their cars... Cars honking and flashing lights, people singing, dancing and waving flags.

I wonder when the riotpolice will get here.

<span id='postcolor'> <span id='postcolor'>

cause they were not part of the group that shares the product, but rather against it.

the war is far from over, and aftermath is what will determine the outcome. i'd be more cautious about saying this is over or not, and what the outcome will be.

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 10 2003,00:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 09 2003,23:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm referring to the reason the majority of Americans supported the war, to rid Iraq of a brutal dictator and free the Iraqi people.<span id='postcolor'>

Really? And silly me thought it was about terrorism and WMD.  <span id='postcolor'>

Again, I'm separating what the administration's goal was from that of what I feel the majority of American's goal was. TBA used the WMD/terrorism argument to enter Iraq, and who know's maybe it was true, although WMDs have yet to be found, I hope they are. I think most Americans supported the war for the sake of the Iraqis.

[Guest]

9--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 10 2003,009)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't be surprised if this war sets a pattern for world politics far into the future.<span id='postcolor'>

I find it disturbingly similar to what we Europeans did to the world. We went to America, Africa and Asia and saved the "poor heathens" by converting them to Christianity. The forced conversions were done because we really wanted to help those people, to convert them to the right faith so that they wouldn't burn in hell. Those poor bastard lived in ignorance about the true God. Thank God that we were there to save them and to make use of their natural resources which would have other been exploited for who knows what un-Godly purposes.

Right now the keywords are "poor oppressed people" and "Democracy".

This is neocolonialism baby, nothing more, nothing less.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 10 2003,00:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think most Americans supported the war for the sake of the Iraqis.<span id='postcolor'>

And the war with Afghanistan was of course for the sake of the Afghani people.