Film/documentary: bowling for columbine

[Benze 0]

I'd piss my pants if officers in the US were not armed, like in some parts of the UK. Fact is, they are different places, folks. America is a violent place.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and some of the ppl who love some of US state's gun law refuse to come down here. <span id='postcolor'>

I never said I refused.

[FSPilot 0]

It's one of those things you have to build up to. Like a cold pool. You can't just jump in, you have to take it one toe at a time.

Same thing for us, you have to practice wearing shiny belt buckles and saying "y'all" while eating large chunks of meat with no utensils.

[NurEinMensch 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Dec. 01 2002,02:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I always wondered what these NRA members and fans are about ? I mean, I have to carry weapons along with my job and have/had to use them. I feel absolutely no need to take the guns home and put them into my closet although I have one suited for keeping weapons locked in and I am allowed to do it. I am always happy when I can leave them in the weapons store at the camp. What is so interesting about carrying guns into public. And where is the need for it ? Did that come out in some of that discussions you mentioned Albert ? I would be really interested about the arguments as I can see no point in it. I dont want to lead the topic offroad and Albert you can PM me on that. But I would really like to know.

OK sorry for interrupting, I will watch the movie next week. It is not shown in a big cinema here, but in one that offers special programs for "non-mainstream" freaks like me  <span id='postcolor'>

Balschoiw, I know you are not bullshitting, but since when is it alowed to take issued weapons home

Are you sure about that or are your superoirs just turning a blind eye on that?

About the reasons for private gun ownership - since when do I need a reason to own something? Is there a reason for fast or huge cars? Is there a reason for beer?

And both examples are destroying _far_ more lives than legal gun ownership!

You are not interested in guns, ok, so you don't see a point in having one. Easy to say if you handle them on a daily basis. But for other people it's an entertaining hobby. Let them have it if they want that.

Statistics prove legal guns are hardly used in crimes, the vast majority are illegal guns. And they will always be present, no matter how strict gun laws are.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but since when is it alowed to take issued weapons home <span id='postcolor'>

I can take home my handguns home without any problems at all. As I have a weaponcard plus permission to bear weapons in public. For sure it is a matter of rank and job. But it is legal.

I am certainly NOT allowed to take a G36 or any other rifle weapon home. It is always a funny thing when you go to airport on business travel and check in the handgun. It´s my job.

[joltan 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Dec. 01 2002,05:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is not as easy as that, unfortunately! The most bloody  school-shooting ever happened in Germany (only a year ago)! And we got some of the strictest gun laws in europe! <span id='postcolor'>

You have to remark though that it were legal weapons used (he was member of a gun club) and that he would most likely not been able to obtain a weapon from the black market (maybe not hard for a criminal with the right connections, but for a school kid? I doubt that...). Same goes for the weapons used in the Columbine Massacre.

These kids could shoot because they were able to get the weapons of a weapons fair or (like the German guy) from a gun shop.

[madmedic 0]

Bowling for Columbine is by no means a documentary of any sort. Just a mix of absurd rantings by a delusional a-hole.

Michael Moore engages almost exclusively in "ambush journalism"...meaning he interviews people, or he films situations, and then EDITS to make it look as though he has uncovered some great travesty.

Bowling for Columbine is in NO WAY an accurate depiction of anything (except for Michael Moore's holier than thou self-righteousness)

[Gollum1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Dec. 01 2002,03:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyhow, it is kind of a hard job to fight them if they know you are german, cause then they give you this "fucking Nazi" counter-insults. And then you gotta waste hours to proof to them you are not a Nazi.<span id='postcolor'>

Good luck trying to explain anything to jackasses like those.

Just ignore them.

[Guest]

Please keep the discussion civilized. Flaming will not be tolerated.

[Die Alive 0]

Next movie Michael Moore should do is explore why he is so fat. Ban all hand guns and ban all forks! And take off that baseball cap and shave, ffs, you look like you're on welfare.

-=Die Alive=-

[Jinef 2]

I was just amused by it all really, especially the fat militias. Like they are going to overthrow the US military and goverment if it starts abusing it's power!

Yes there were mistakes in it like as i said before classifying unemployment as the same as poverty which it is not.

But it did reveal lot's of things like how unemployed people have to go through all that shit just to try and stay above water. America needs to sort out it's own social state before trying to do Iraq's in my opinion. True the UK has got problems with the NHS and education and we too should be focusing on that instead of running all over the world shooting people.

And also it emphasised how America over reacts to things, children were expelled for taking nail clippers into school!

It's the same with airline security nowadays, you can't take even take some toothpicks on!

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Dec. 02 2002,02:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">America needs to sort out it's own social state before trying to do Iraq's in my opinion.<span id='postcolor'>

If we stopped focusing on Iraq saddam would get away with WMDs and then America would be in a worse position than it is now.

I haven't seen the movie, and I don't really plan to, but it sounds like this guy is just pointing out other peoples foibles without caring about his own, or even providing solutions.

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 01 2002,21:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Dec. 02 2002,024)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">America needs to sort out it's own social state before trying to do Iraq's in my opinion.<span id='postcolor'>

If we stopped focusing on Iraq saddam would get away with WMDs and then America would be in a worse position than it is now.<span id='postcolor'>

Why becuase saddam would use his "super duper weapons" and his little army and go kick amerricas butt ??

[madmedic 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Dec. 01 2002,21:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But it did reveal lot's of things like how unemployed people have to go through all that shit just to try and stay above water.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes,...but one thing you need to understand Jinef, is that there is ALOT more to the welfare/poverty/unemployment problem in the United States than Michael Moore would choose to show you.

There are legitimately indigent people (of ALL races by the way) in the U.S. who are not able to fend for themselves. These people absolutely deserve to be helped in any way possible.

However, there are also many, many people here who choose to be un-employed, collect welfare, and criple the ability of an already flawed system to help those who deserve it.

I work in fire/EMS, and I am regularly exposed to these people.

On "check day", if you go down to the local Welfare office in the city where I live...you will see people driving up to pick up there welfare check in a BMW, or Lexus (BTW, in Europe I understand that a BMW may be a common automobile...but they are expensive cars in the U.S.)

Another common scene is "poor" families with as many as 10 children all very close in age, running around in bare feet, wearing nothing but a dirty diaper, or some old tattered pajamas...and looking very in need of a bath.

NOW EVERYONE has a right to reproduce...BUT the case above is an example of simple abuse of the system.

You see, the Welfare system gives you MORE MONEY for having more kids (which makes sense in a perfect world where nobody cheats)

The abuse of the system becomes evident when you see the big screen television in the living room of the family mentioned above, when you see the mother and father decked out in "Tommy Hilfiger" clothes, and gold jewelry....and when you see the six thousand dollars worth of rims and tires on the beat up Impala outside.

Michael Moore is part of the ilk who denies/ignores the above problems...and feels the solution is for welfare to be MORE lucrative to be on....yet refuses to believe that there should be stricter standards for just WHO can collect welfare.

Seriously,...for you guys who are in Europe (and elsewhere)...Michael Moore is a joke. He has been around in the U.S. for a long time, PRETENDING to be a champion of the common folk, twisting the truth around to support that notion (on MANY MANY subjects)....and making BIG BUCKS for himself.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Nov. 30 2002,20:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dont forget NRA is the RICHEST organisation in New York and the did a good job to provide its members with propaganda.<span id='postcolor'>

an absolute lie.  it's not even the top 100 groups for lobbying.  However, it does have a strong grassroots base.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyhow, it is kind of a hard job to fight them if they know you are german, cause then they give you this "fucking Nazi" counter-insults. And then you gotta waste hours to proof to them you are not a Nazi.<span id='postcolor'>

Thank your grandaddy for that wonderful boat anchor he threw around your neck. oh well.  it takes a while to complete your penance when it comes to exterminating more than 11 million people like animals.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">His book "stupid white men" was also rejected and he had to find Canadian and German support to reprint it. It is out now in German and French but not in english. I realy laugh my a*s*s* of when I see how much of a boycott he has to face in the "land of the free"<span id='postcolor'>

thats funny. I've seen stacks of these things in the local bookstore.  perhaps you should research what you say before you say things grossly absurd.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Benze @ Dec. 01 2002,02<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'd piss my pants if officers in the US were not armed, like in some parts of the UK. Fact is, they are different places, folks. America is a violent place.<span id='postcolor'>

according to 2 international crime studies (from Leiden University in Holland and the British Home Office),  the UK and Australia generally had the worst crime. the U.S was back in pack.

here we go:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The report called "International Comparison of Criminal Justice Statistics 1999" was authored by Gordon Barclay, Cynthia Tavaras and Arsalaan Siddique and released earlier this month.

Twenty-four countries were studied. Rates were reviewed for violent crime, homicide, domestic burglary and motor vehicle theft. For the year 1999, the following information was revealed:

For all crimes, the United States ranked 17th out of 24 (the worst would be #1) with an average overall crime rate of 4,222 incidents per 100,000 people. Sweden topped the list in this category followed by New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Denmark, Belgium, Germany, Canada, the Netherlands, Finland and Norway.

For violent crime the United States ranked 12th out of 24. South Africa ranked number one with 1,771 violent crimes per 100,000 people followed by the United Kingdom with 1,263 violent crime per 100,000 people. Then New Zealand, Luxembourg, Canada, Australia, Sweden, Austria, Belgium and Finland.

For domestic burglary, the U.S. ranked 6th out of 24. Denmark topped the list followed by Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, United Kingdom, then the U.S., South Africa, Canada, Belgium and the Netherlands.

Regarding auto theft, the U.S. ranks 12th of 24. Sweden top the list followed by New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Australia, France, Denmark, Finland, Japan, Canada and Italy.

homicide. the U.S. still suffers from a high murder rate, about two-thirds accounted for by firearms. the rate in the U.S. continues to plummet however. The crime mad country of South Africa actually top the list with nearly 55 killings per 100,000 people. Russia is second with 21 per 100,000. Then the U.S. where the rate falls to 5.63 per 100,000. Finland, Spain and the Czech Republic follow with about half the rate of the U.S. Australia, Canada and the UK are at 7, 10, 14.<span id='postcolor'>

and

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland, found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations.

Twenty-six percent of English citizens -- roughly one-quarter of the population -- have been victimized by violent crime. Australia led the list with more than 30 percent of its population victimized.

The United States didn't even make the "top 10" list of industrialized nations whose citizens were victimized by crime.

Jack Straw, the British home secretary, admitted that "levels of victimization are higher than in most comparable countries for most categories of crime."

Highlights of the study indicated that:

The percentage of the population that suffered "contact crime" in England and Wales was 3.6 percent, compared with 1.9 percent in the United States and 0.4 percent in Japan.

Burglary rates in England and Wales were also among the highest recorded. Australia (3.9 percent) and Denmark (3.1 per cent) had higher rates of burglary with entry than England and Wales (2.8 percent). In the U.S., the rate was 2.6 percent, according to 1995 figures;

"After Australia and England and Wales, the highest prevalence of crime was in Holland (25 percent), Sweden (25 percent) and Canada (24 percent). The United States, despite its high murder rate, was among the middle ranking countries with a 21 percent victimization rate," the London Telegraph said.

England and Wales also led in automobile thefts. More than 2.5 percent of the population had been victimized by car theft, followed by 2.1 percent in Australia and 1.9 percent in France. Again, the U.S. was not listed among the "top 10" nations.

The study found that Australia led in burglary rates, with nearly 4 percent of the population having been victimized by a burglary. Denmark was second with 3.1 percent; the U.S. was listed eighth at about 1.8 percent.

Interestingly, the study found that one of the lowest victimization rates -- just 15 percent overall -- occurred in Northern Ireland, home of the Irish Republican Army and scene of years of terrorist violence.

Analysts in the U.S. were quick to point out that all of the other industrialized nations included in the survey had stringent gun-control laws, but were overall much more violent than the U.S. <span id='postcolor'>

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ Dec. 02 2002,03:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why becuase saddam would use his "super duper weapons" and his little army and go kick amerricas butt ??<span id='postcolor'>

What are you, new?

If Saddam had weapons of mass destruction he wouldn't use his army. He'd use some terrorist to walk into a big city and set them off.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Dec. 02 2002,00:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">His book "stupid white men" was also rejected and he had to find Canadian and German support to reprint it. It is out now in German and French but not in english. I realy laugh my a*s*s* of when I see how much of a boycott he has to face in the "land of the free"<span id='postcolor'>

thats funny. I've seen stacks of these things in the local bookstore.  perhaps you should research what you say before you say things grossly absurd.<span id='postcolor'>

and you should have read the post more thoroughly. i beat him to death on that matter already.

[Guest]

PitViper: Here are some stats from a pro-gun site http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">United States (/100k capita):

Violent deaths (suicide + homicide): 18.57

Homicides:  5.70

United Kingdom:

Violent deaths (suicide + homicide): 9.53

Homicides: 1.41<span id='postcolor'>

So, I don't really know where you got your reference from. Or better to say, what is your definition of "crime rate"? Reported crimes, solved crimes? Also there are different forms of crime. You can't really put bicycle theft together with homicide.

Edit:

I looked up the statistics on a government Swedish website: http://www.bra.se/web/statistik/internationellt/ where they give an explanation to why Sweden always topps the lists. They claim that the statistics are gathered differently. That in Sweden

1) Attempted crimes are registered as crimes

2) All crimes are registered (several crimes towards one victim are registered individually and different crimes committed at the same time are registered individually too).

3) Crimes are registered when reported, even if subsequent investigations show that there was no crime.

According to the site this differs from how other countries register their crimes.

So you see, just comparing crime rates doesn't give anything. You have to be more specific, like looking at the homicides. Then you will have a smaller error due to the difference in statistical methods used.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 01 2002,19:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So, I don't really know where you got your reference from. Or better to say, what is your definition of "crime rate"? Reported crimes, solved crimes? Also there are different forms of crime. You can't really put bicycle theft together with homicide.<span id='postcolor'>

I fully referenced both international crime studies. They are not of American origin. Are you going to challenge them?

jeez

Here's a direct link to the Leiden study.

http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publications/pdf_files/key2000i/index.htm

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Dec. 02 2002,01:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I fully referenced both international crime studies.  They are not of American origin.  Are you going to challenge them?<span id='postcolor'>

Yes I will, because of the reason I stated in the post above: the statistics are made in different ways in different countries, making it impossible to get an overall overview.

But even if they were, it's hardly relevant. Bicycle theft and guns have very little correlation.

Also, you have to take into account the differences of the countries, which the study does not. Why are bicycle theft crime rates high in Sweden - because everybody here has a bike and many people go to work/school by bike. Much more then for instance in the USA where you go more by car...

In short, not too impressive study.

[Guest]

Actually, I'll take back the first part. I am not going to challange the results of the study. What I want to question is your interpretations of the results of the study.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

"For the first three months of the book's release, Moore says, "I did not appear on a single broadcast network (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX) show other than one appearance on "Politically Incorrect" – which on that particular night did not air until 15am. Since then I have appeared only on the network show "The Today Show" – and only if I agreed to appear with a rightwing author (as they did not want to put me on alone, even though by then my book had been number one for four weeks). The book has been completely ignored by every single show on NPR and PBS, and 95 percent of the daily papers in the country, including the New York Times have refused to review it."  

(opps lost the link, go search on google )

---------------------------------------------------------------

.So, when do you get to see it? United Artists bought the film for the U.S. and is planning on releasing it this fall. But don't hold your breath. I hate to sound a note of pessimism or warning, but my experience this year in fighting to get my book released (from a publisher that was hell-bent on NOT releasing it) has made me justifiably wary of anyone who says they will distribute my work. I wish the good people at UA all the best....have to say that things have turned around a bit for me in the past few months. I have no one else to thank for this except for all of you. Against incredible odds that included a publisher who demanded I choose between censoring my work or destroying the 50,000 copies they had printed, you made "Stupid White Men" the most-read non-fiction book in the country – and it remains at or near the top of every best-seller list in the U.S. and Canada for the 15th week in a row.

(Michael Moore online diary)

---------------------------------------------------------------

... As weeks and then months went by, he engaged in an ongoing debate with his publisher over whether the book would be released, unless he "toned down" his dissent and changed the title and content. When his alternate title -- Bring Me the Head of Antonin Scalia -- and refusal to change his commentary were not acceptable to the publisher, he was told the book would be pulped.

The book finally was released for sale, he said, because of the efforts of an unlikely hero -- a librarian who went to one of his speeches, during which he described his plight. She posted a message in an Internet librarian chat room, from which it was forwarded on to librarian listservs, and soon Moore's story became a widely publicized First Amendment issue. The publisher caved. And was rewarded for it. Stupid White Men is now in its 15th printing and "selling at a faster pace than Harry Potter," Moore said, adding, "Thank God for the Internet, this egalitarian device that lets us speak to each other without the filters. Our problem now is to get the Internet into the hands of people who have no money...

(news.cornell.edu)

----------------------------------------------------------

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thank your grandaddy for that wonderful boat anchor he threw around your neck. oh well.  it takes a while to complete your penance when it comes to exterminating more than 11 million people like animals.<span id='postcolor'>

My grandfather showed a lot of courage during the Nazi-era. You know it can be pretty hurtful if someone insults your family just because they were german. This makes it especially insultive if some of them actually showed a lot of courage (maybe even more than you would have showed). and I consider my grandpa to be one of them. And as most germans he suffered under terrible poverty during and after the war. Despite that he was able to build several factories and brought back some glory to a town that was totally blown to dust. I dont know what you can expect from someone during this era but in my belief he did as much as someone can do with courage. My family has a long and prosperous history but I can assure you that you wont find any political activities from their side nor a tiny military background. So this "boat anchor" you are talking about is not tied around my neck, the opposite is the case, he gave me opportunity to speak up instead of feeling ashame for him. And I hope I can do the same for my grandchildren!

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thank your grandaddy for that wonderful boat anchor he threw around your neck. oh well. it takes a while to complete your penance when it comes to exterminating more than 11 million people like animals.

<span id='postcolor'>

This post is awful !

But it shows that there are still some blockheads around that need to base their opinions on prejudices. Go ahead !

People with an attitude like this really make me sick.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Dec. 02 2002,00:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyhow, it is kind of a hard job to fight them if they know you are german, cause then they give you this "fucking Nazi" counter-insults. And then you gotta waste hours to proof to them you are not a Nazi.<span id='postcolor'>

Thank your grandaddy for that wonderful boat anchor he threw around your neck. oh well.  it takes a while to complete your penance when it comes to exterminating more than 11 million people like animals.<span id='postcolor'>

*cough*Native Americans*cough*Slave Trade*cough*