Airsoft & Paintball and those in between.

[Tovarish 0]

Hey I was just pointing out your assumption of an automatic improvement in accuracy was flawed, I'm not saying you shouldn't get it or anything, and no one's trying to get hostile with you.

[madmedic 0]

Whoa now  easy folks,...nothing to argue about here.

I will give a simple explanation of the concept.

BUT FIRST

Increasing the length of the barrel does not increase the amount of "spin"...only adding faster twist rifling will do that...

And more spin does not mean more accuracy...Rifling twist is matched to the calibre and weight of bullet (in general, a heavier bullet needs a faster twist)

Too slow, or Too fast...and the bullet will not properly stabilize.

on to the "bullpup discussion

Okay,...you have a standard issue, full length M16A2...It has a 20 inch barrel, with rifling twist rates of 1:7, 1:8, or 1:9 depending on the manufacurer.

The rifle has good accuracy, and sufficient velocity for bullet fragmentation to still occur at around 190 to 200m with M193 BALL 55gr ammo, and around 140 to 150m with M855 BALL 62gr ammo.

If you take that M16A2, and put an M4 barrel, and buttstock on it...you have a much more compact rifle, suited for closer engagements....BUT, you also give up a little accuracy, and velocity/effective range.

NOW if you could take that 20 inch M16 barrel, and mount it on a "bullpup" action...you could end up with a rifle that is the same length as that M4 (or even shorter)...yet retains all of the advantages of a 20 inch barrel.

However bullpup rifles are more than likely better off with optics on them (such as an Aimpoint)...because moving the barrel tip closer to your eye reduces the site radius for iron sites...wich in turn hurts accuracy.

Most bullpup RIFLE designs have really not performed as well as anticipated by their designers.

The original question was in reference to AIRSOFT guns though,...in which case, none of this matters

I would immagine that all Airsoft guns of similar rated velocity (FPS) ...will probably perform pretty much the same.

I have never messed around with one, but I know there are "custom" shops out there where they are building those things to push 600 fps "ouch!"

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

600 fps are illegal in the UK.

In the UK, AEG's on full auto are allowed to have a max of about 320 odd fps, single shot sniper rifles are allowed to go up to 500 fps.

All stock guns imported to the UK make about 300 fps unmodified, where the FAMAS and other old airsoft guns (like the XM177E2) make about 260-280 fps, because they use a weaker gearbox.

The thing that matters for airsoft rifles is a function called "hop up", which adds a spin to the BB rifle, similar to the twist of a real bullet, but unlike a real bullet it doesn't rotate over its length axis, but rather over its height axis. That way an can reach between 30 and 40 yards, with some snipers reaching 60-80 or even more

[Aaron Kane 0]

I've come to the conclusion that I'm indeed going to buy an airsoft gun. I'm thinking either the M16A2 or the M4. I'm considering the M16A2 because someone in this thread mentioned that it has a larger battery than the M4. I used to play paintball, and I'd always have lots of ammo but no CO2, so having a large battery is going to be helpful. Which one do you all think I should buy? I'm probably going to play against guys with paintball guns.

I'm probably going to play on a mountainside with lots of woods and boulders to hide behind, but it still offers relatively good visability. Is there a singifigant difference between the effective range of the M4 and the M16A2 in airsoft?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aaron Kane @ Nov. 26 2002,14:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Is there a singifigant difference between the effective range of the M4 and the M16A2 in airsoft?<span id='postcolor'>

Unmodified - hardly.

If you modify them slightly, you may get 2-4 yards more out of the M16, hardly worth the hassle.

One point - do not use paint-ball BB's in your AEG's, they will brake and ruin your gun! This is not a "may happen" scenario, this WILL happen if you use them!

[Maraudeur 0]

http://www.theqproject.com/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=103

[MrMilli 0]

M16A2 and M4, main difference that is instantly recognisable is the rate of fire, the M16A2 having a new motor chucks em out faster than the M4 (unmodified I'm on about here).

There is also a just about noticeable difference in range (although not by much with both having fully charged batteries and same conditions) and a slightly more noticeable difference in accuracy (although you have to bear in mind accuracy isn't really much of a issue, as the weight of the shot isn't sufficient for good accuracy)

A difference that becomes apparent later on is the Battery on an M4 will run out a lot quicker than an M16 large battery.

Most people, barring malfunction, will not need to change an M16's battery in a day.

An M4 battery needs to be changed about lunchtime.

6mm Paintballs in AEG's will burst as they leave the hop-up, the hop-up is meant to be clear and clean, and even the smallest particle will affect its performance.

If a paintball bursts in the hop-up, then you might as well start looking for a new one.

WGC, and all AEG's do not include cleaning fluid, they include a cleaning rod, which is a remarkably useless item without cleaning fluid

Legal Limits in the UK are iffy, take a look at arnies airsoft for the best explanation.

WGC prices are good, but you need to take into account all the charges before ordering, because if you can't pay them they you won't get the goods

P.S M134, YES PLEASE!

[FSPilot 0]

LOL

I'd probably fall over using an M134.

Both from any recoil and from the sheer giddyness and hypoxia resulting from the uncontrollable grin on my face.

[Warin 0]

Wow. A minigun.

I wonder if they actually sell any of those beasts!

I'm trying to decide which airsoft gun that I want to buy. I have it narrowed down to the CA M4 Carbine or a TM G36. Any opinions?

[-TU--33ker 0]

if you mean the TM G36c, you'll have problems to get your hands on those babies.

they're brand new and there will be a rush on them when they're out. but the shops are taking pre-orders now i think.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote ([TU]$33ker @ Nov. 26 2002,19:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if you mean the TM G36c, you'll have problems to get your hands on those babies.

they're brand new and there will be a rush on them when they're out. but the shops are taking pre-orders now i think. <span id='postcolor'>

That's the one! I have to mailorder it from Calgary...but they do have them on pre-order.

The biggest problem is that there isnt anyone here that plays... so I will have a cool hobby with nothing to do with it.

[-TU--33ker 0]

try a search around on the net. i think you'll have to drive some miles then, but you will find a place or a club.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote ([TU]$33ker @ Nov. 26 2002,19:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">try a search around on the net. i think you'll have to drive some miles then, but you will find a place or a club.<span id='postcolor'>

The closest club is in Vancouver. And that's 400km

I am thinking of getting one going here. The biggest problem will be finding a place to play. Maybe we can co-exist with the local paintball guys.

The ideal would be to find a warehouse that no one is using and rent it cheap and build some CQB buildings inside.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Nov. 26 2002,19:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote ([TU]$33ker @ Nov. 26 2002,19:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">try a search around on the net. i think you'll have to drive some miles then, but you will find a place or a club.<span id='postcolor'>

The closest club is in Vancouver.  And that's 400km

I am thinking of getting one going here.  The biggest problem will be finding a place to play.  Maybe we can co-exist with the local paintball guys.

The ideal would be to find a warehouse that no one is using and rent it cheap and build some CQB buildings inside.  <span id='postcolor'>

I thought AEG's are illegal in Canada

If not, Paintball club is a good place to start, they have the facilities which, if you can find an arrangement, you will be able to use

Have a look around some UK sites and see how they organise such events, you could get some inspiration from there.

[-TU--33ker 0]

lol we have plenty of cqb sites here. we just have to rent some buildings at the old NATO base in our town. (we had a dutch base here )

but unfourtunately airsoft isn't legal in germany.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You play the bass? Me too <span id='postcolor'>

LÖL today we almost decided to call our band "Flashpoint".

but the final name is "Soundtank"

[FSPilot 0]

hahaha

the only band I was ever in, and I didn't play the bass coincidentally, we called "nine inch males"

a play off of "nine inch nails"

eh, i thought it was clever

paintball fields are probably the best place to start off if there aren't any clubs around you already.

but bear in mind i had to drive 2 hours to get to this match I went to, you might have to do some driving as well.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ Nov. 26 2002,19:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I thought AEG's are illegal in Canada

If not, Paintball club is a good place to start, they have the facilities which, if you can find an arrangement, you will be able to use

Have a look around some UK sites and see how they organise such events, you could get some inspiration from there.<span id='postcolor'>

Not at all. Canada has really strict laws about ownership of real guns... but not nearly as uptight about air rifles. In fact, you can buy them here without hte horrid orange barrels required by law in the US.

I am just itching to buy one of these babies. I also like the looks of the Beta Spetsnaz AK, but it doesnt look like it has the tweaks available like an M4 or that funky new G36 will have

[-TU--33ker 0]

M16 and HK series have the most possibilities for upgrades.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"nine inch males"

<span id='postcolor'>

hehe

would be a stupid name for some dudes who are playing twice a week at school.

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MrMilli @ Nov. 26 2002,17:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Legal Limits in the UK are iffy, take a look at arnies airsoft for the best explanation.

WGC prices are good, but you need to take into account all the charges before ordering, because if you can't pay them they you won't get the goods

P.S M134, YES PLEASE!<span id='postcolor'>

From what i`ve read on the energy of a pellet must not exceed 1 joule which is roughly 320fps for normal ammo slightly lower for heavier ammo and thats for automatics.

For sem-automatics its 520fps both sniper and pistols as far as i know also i dont know if they`ll be treated as illegal or just as an airgun if u exceed the limit :|

As for places to play over here the rule is to use them on private property with permission of the landowner (tip:-get written permission and keep it safe) even though their may be grounds better suited and safer to play on???

It may also be useful to go through the hassle of letting the local police know when ur going ,woopeee other wise some moron ,70% of the population, may think ur actually running around with an assualt rifle just for the fun of it woopee

Also from what i`ve heard the clubs now are more smallish local ones,local clubs for local ppl which im not a big fan off so ill be sticking to laserquest for the meantime.

[MrMilli 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ Nov. 26 2002,20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MrMilli @ Nov. 26 2002,17:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Legal Limits in the UK are iffy, take a look at arnies airsoft for the best explanation.

WGC prices are good, but you need to take into account all the charges before ordering, because if you can't pay them they you won't get the goods <!--emo&

P.S M134, YES PLEASE!<span id='postcolor'>

From what i`ve read on  the energy of a pellet must not exceed 1 joule which is roughly 320fps for normal ammo slightly lower for heavier ammo and thats for automatics.

For sem-automatics its 520fps both sniper and pistols as far as i know also i dont know if they`ll be treated as illegal or just as an airgun if u exceed the limit :|

As for places to play over here the rule is to use them on private property with permission of the landowner (tip:-get written permission and keep it safe) even though their may be grounds better suited and safer to play on???

It may also be useful to go through the hassle of letting the local police know when ur going ,woopeee other wise some moron ,70% of the population, may think ur actually running around with an assualt rifle just for the fun of it woopee

Also from what i`ve heard the clubs now are more smallish local ones,local clubs for local ppl which im not a big fan off so ill be sticking to laserquest for the meantime.<span id='postcolor'>

to quote

"There is no specific legal limit for Airsoft replicas! Firstly, Airsoft replicas are not weapons! A weapon is defined as something ‘which has a lethal effect on its target, or is capable of penetrating the skin’.  Evidence from the forensic science service (http://www.forensic.gov.uk/forensic/entry.htm), accepted by the Home Office, states that:

‘The lowest power level at which a penetrating injury can occur is at a muzzle energy of about one foot pound, which roughly equates to 1.35 joules’

So basically, anything with a muzzle energy of less than 1.35J is not a firearm, or weapon, and is not restricted in any way by the firearms act. [hence why if you look I never refer to airsoft guns as "weapons"] This also means they can be purchased by anyone, even young children. (See http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa....05.htm) 1.35J muzzle energy is approximately 380fps with a 0.2g BB, and limits are often quoted as an fps, assuming that it corresponds to a 0.2g BB..."

This applies to all airsoft guns in the UK, a airsoft gun doing 500fps (including sniper rifles and definately self loaders doing 500fps) are classed as low powered air weapons, but when you play on a site you give consent to be shot at by these low powered air weapons, which because they have a power of over 1ft/lb are classed as "Firearms" not requiring a police issued certificate or otherwise licensed.

So, technically as long as you give consent to be shot at by them, the limit can go as high as 12 ft/lb, but if you turn up with any gun clocking more than 500fps (or 1.7ft/lb)

then the site owners will "politely invite you to vacate the property" and if you turn up with one doing 12ft/lb (or a scary 1329 fps) then you will be escorted off the site with your gun in about 7000 more pieces than it arrived in.

If you turn up amazingly with anything over 12ft/lb, then it is well within the rights of the site owners to call the police, and have them nick you for possesion of an illegal firearm (which it would be classified as, and which you would get a hefty fine and/or prison term)

Shoot someone with it and it you are "discharging an illegal firearm" or if you have a crap lawyer "Assualt (Which I have forgotten to spell)  with a deadly weapon" and you will be finding out what they mean with the endless "Bubba" prison jokes.

Going back to sniper and self loader, a airsoft gun technically going over 12ft/lb and self loading or fully automatic fall under the same regulations as if you'd just bought a real steel AK-47 from some funny bloke called Vlad who sounds eastern european.

No fines

No Cautions

You go to jail and do not pass go or collect Å200

by Single Action it does not mean semi-automatic, it means where an action is needed to fire again (hence why Cadets are allowed GP rifles but not SA80's converted to semi)

However, since you play on a site technically giving consent to be shot at only by guns going up to 500fps, if you arrive with a gun clocked over that limit, consent is withdrawn and you could be prosecuted for it, even if it is clocking 501.

buuuuutttt there is no precedent for this happening, so you might get away with it in court if you were prosecuted

buuuuutttt maybe not, as you still violated the letter of the law in a country that is so gun-phobic people are campaigning for kiddies cap guns to be made illegal.

To conclude, when I say the laws are iffy, I am actually understating the fact

To those not living in the great land, ignore all of the above, as other countries make the power definition though there own independant national advisory services, and as such everyone comes up with a different result

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote ([TU]$33ker @ Nov. 27 2002,00:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">twice a week<span id='postcolor'>

TWICE A WEEK!?!? ARE YOU MAD?

LOL I think we had one practice, then our electric drumset broke.

you can see how our budget was, lol.

[Renagade 0]

An interesting post Mrmilli,i will take what u have said into consideration

[-TU--33ker 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Nov. 26 2002,22:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote ([TU]$33ker @ Nov. 27 2002,00:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">twice a week<span id='postcolor'>

TWICE A WEEK!?!? ARE YOU MAD?

LOL I think we had one practice, then our electric drumset broke.

you can see how our budget was, lol.<span id='postcolor'>

nah we had a practice yesterday. today we were just kidding around with drums and bass.

i think i've seen a minigun for sale somewhere on the net. but i don't know which practical use those babies have in the field.

oh i've got to go to my bass lessons now!

[LowLevelFunctionary 0]

Ok ummm this is probably unrelated to what you have been talking about but i need a quick answer for a quick question .

Well you know the airsoft ak47 with the wooden stock??  does the plastic actually look like wood?  has it been done well?

sorry to go a bit offtopic but i just need to know  

thanks

[FSPilot 0]

I think there are two with a wooden stock. A regular AK-47 and the AK-47 Beta that I used. As far as I know they're both real finished wood, but I'm not sure. Try emailing the manufacturer if you can't find the answer here.