Helicopter camera

[Misconduct 99]

1 hour ago, pooroldspike said:

Developer Oukej said on page 5 that it was jet pilots who wanted the new 1.70 view in the first place, and that their feedback indicates they like it!

So that places BI in a dilemma because a lot of chopper and Blackfish pilots don't like it!

It therefore seems the only way to keep both camps happy would be for BI to give us an in-game option to choose to play with either the old 1.68 static-horizon view or the new 1.70 hotfix fluid-horizon view, whichever they prefer..:)

How about it BI? Is that possible?

Here's what Oukej said on page 5-

"Valid complaints that 3rd person camera used to be "suboptimal" (and sim industry non-standard-ish) for aircraft control and flight vector awareness is what triggered the changes in the first place :)

One examplehttps://www.reddit.com/r/arma/comments/5h06zz/aircraft_3rd_person_camera_proof_of_concept/

So from airplane's perspective we've received positive feedback after the change."

An excellent diplomatic solution for everyone!

[Greenfist 1863]

8 hours ago, Misconduct said:

Interesting how you use real numbers for those who have the game, and extremely loose numbers (4, which is incorrect if you count) to completely sum up the opposition.

 

On this page of this thread at this time; there are 6 people opposed to the change and hotfix, and 2 who like it, and one who I'm not sure about. You make the large assumption that 400 000 people are happy, when they simply havn't chimed in on either side yet.

... lol but who cares about facts, when your opinion weighs the most!

 

Also leading in with "my opinion weights the most" suggests that one opinion SHOULD outweigh others, so, none of your original statistics could possibly mean anything according to your own theory.

I see my sarcasm was completely lost on you. I didn't mean my opinion or anyone else's, including yours, mattered more. BI definitely shouldn't put any weight on anyone's arguments based on their Youtube views, or how much they love the game, or how long they have played. So I wish people here and everywhere would stop using those things as justification for their entitlement. Simply state your opinion, explain the reasoning, and skip the totally unrelated excuses, like how many people you think have bought the game based on your videos, which I'm sure were watched because of the good gameplay, not the pitch of the camera.

 

I assume Bohemia will continue to base their design decisions on the bigger picture, not a single discussion thread with 6 people disliking the changes. I mean, since the hotfix there have been 93 comments on this thread but 75% are only from 5 different users. To me, that doesn't sound like problem. You should see how this community gets up in arms when there's a real issue. Besides, this thread is the only place I've seen any opposition on the matter.

I hope the in-game analytics system also records the used camera as well as the vehicle and deaths, so maybe BI could get some objective data on the matter. Has the 3rd person flying declined? Do those pilots die more often? Etc.

 

By the way, I did not imply the 400 000 players (not owners) were satisfied, just that their silence is very telling.

 

And to be clear and repeat myself, the current camera is better than the old because it gives you a feeling you're part of the vehicle and not a rigid drone following it. And also much more accurate sense of orientation. 

I feel bad for people who can't enjoy the improvement because of nausea, which is why I hope BI will find some sort of compromise for this. If they even still see it as a problem. Anyone refusing to learn to fly again is not a problem.

[Sniperwolf572 758]

5 hours ago, pooroldspike said:

Developer Oukej said on page 5 that it was jet pilots who wanted the new 1.70 view in the first place, and that their feedback indicates they like it!

So that places BI in a dilemma because a lot of chopper and Blackfish pilots don't like it!

It therefore seems the only way to keep both camps happy would be for BI to give us an in-game option to choose to play with either the old 1.68 static-horizon view or the new 1.70 hotfix fluid-horizon view, whichever they prefer..:)

How about it BI? Is that possible?

Here's what Oukej said on page 5-

"Valid complaints that 3rd person camera used to be "suboptimal" (and sim industry non-standard-ish) for aircraft control and flight vector awareness is what triggered the changes in the first place :)

One examplehttps://www.reddit.com/r/arma/comments/5h06zz/aircraft_3rd_person_camera_proof_of_concept/

So from airplane's perspective we've received positive feedback after the change."

 

I'm one of the people who would love to see the camera like in that video as an option for planes, but neither 1.68 nor 1.70 come even close to what is shown in the video. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

And let's not even talk about the unpredictable freelook behavior when vehicles are anything but relatively flat that's been there since OFP. Want to look back-left? Tough luck, you're banked somewhat, so you're limited to looking front-left.

[teabagginpeople 398]

8 hours ago, Misconduct said:

An amateur pilot would call that a "slight" camera change, I'm sure you barely noticed it.

Ah I see trying to suggest anyone that is being reasonable about the change must not be up to your so called dodo bird level of skill.

 

You would think after all my years playing arma since ofp when I was a kid would make me less able to adapt. yet here I am. 

Able to do the things you do in first person, third person, broken third person,  new hotfix, advanced flight model no advanced flight model, track ir no track ir. Perhaps "some of us have put time in". Or are willing to give new efforts a proper try.

 

 

Quote

As far as the castration goes, I really don't care what happens to Jets - I just noticed you call them multimillion dollar dangerous instruments of war and I thought that was absurd,

 

 

Really because I'd bet Jets dlc is proving very popular. And the amount of people paying real life money for jets dlc.they certainly didn't pay for the dlc for your bastardised castrated vision of how jets should be in "vanilla" arma. 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

video games like these are caricatures of real life but in a "paper, rock, scissors" style of strengths and weaknesses, and the jets don't currently have enough weaknesses.

 

Enough weaknesses? They do other jets. AAA with a new radar system to help make them invisible ?? New hit points make them harder to fly when damaged? dynamic loadouts for helis add More AA? Human error. Maybe leave your lil bird and koth for a bit see what's up.

Quote

 

 

Magic teleportation (kOTH) ,instant rearming and unlimited supply of jets/money - simply eliminate the natural weakness that jets have.

It's a simple fix for simple players. Some of us have put in time, I'm doubting you will understand.

Oh I'm understanding there's a simple player. You want to castrate jets because of magic teleportation?  Instant rearming? Unless I play one mission in armas sand box world I see none of this.

 

These are all parts of king of the hills flaws, in its set up.not jets. So take your great suggestions and you bring them to the creator of koth mission. See if they will entertain you.

 

Ps I'm off topic here now.  but that happens easily when this is less an actual feedback thread and just more a  make it 1.68 and while you at it make everything in arma revolve around one mission thread .  

[Misconduct 99]

57 minutes ago, Greenfist said:

I see my sarcasm was completely lost on you. I didn't mean my opinion or anyone else's, including yours, mattered more. BI definitely shouldn't put any weight on anyone's arguments based on their Youtube views, or how much they love the game, or how long they have played. So I wish people here and everywhere would stop using those things as justification for their entitlement. Simply state your opinion, explain the reasoning, and skip the totally unrelated excuses, like how many people you think have bought the game based on your videos, which I'm sure were watched because of the good gameplay, not the pitch of the camera.

 

I assume Bohemia will continue to base their design decisions on the bigger picture, not a single discussion thread with 6 people disliking the changes. I mean, since the hotfix there have been 93 comments on this thread but 75% are only from 5 different users. To me, that doesn't sound like problem. You should see how this community gets up in arms when there's a real issue. Besides, this thread is the only place I've seen any opposition on the matter.

I hope the in-game analytics system also records the used camera as well as the vehicle and deaths, so maybe BI could get some objective data on the matter. Has the 3rd person flying declined? Do those pilots die more often? Etc.

 

By the way, I did not imply the 400 000 players (not owners) were satisfied, just that their silence is very telling.

 

And to be clear and repeat myself, the current camera is better than the old because it gives you a feeling you're part of the vehicle and not a rigid drone following it. And also much more accurate sense of orientation. 

I feel bad for people who can't enjoy the improvement because of nausea, which is why I hope BI will find some sort of compromise for this. If they even still see it as a problem. Anyone refusing to learn to fly again is not a problem.

Sarcasm is always going to be lost in text, particularly when you use it ironically in the same paragraph as other weird logic; for instance the fact that you havn't looked anywhere else suggests you are only looking here, there are many people complaining, you are just selectively listening it seems and you claim that only 6 people care? The omission of information is not prove of non-existence.

Bohemia should care about all the reasons why anyone buys/recommends/likes their product, they should definitely be listening. All we are asking for here is the option to have the same camera we have had for 4 years, why try to stop it?

[Misconduct 99]

42 minutes ago, teabagginpeople said:

Ah I see trying to suggest anyone that is being reasonable about the change must not be up to your so called dodo bird level of skill.

 

You would think after all my years playing arma since ofp when I was a kid would make me less able to adapt. yet here I am. 

Able to do the things you do in first person, third person, broken third person,  new hotfix, advanced flight model no advanced flight model, track ir no track ir. Perhaps "some of us have put time in". Or are willing to give new efforts a proper try.

 

 

 

Really because I'd bet Jets dlc is proving very popular. And the amount of people paying real life money for jets dlc.they certainly didn't pay for the dlc for your bastardised castrated vision of how jets should be in "vanilla" arma. 

 

 

 

 

Enough weaknesses? They do other jets. AAA with a new radar system to help make them invisible ?? New hit points make them harder to fly when damaged? dynamic loadouts for helis add More AA? Human error. Maybe leave your lil bird and koth for a bit see what's up.

Oh I'm understanding there's a simple player. You want to castrate jets because of magic teleportation?  Instant rearming? Unless I play one mission in armas sand box world I see none of this.

 

These are all parts of king of the hills flaws, in its set up.not jets. So take your great suggestions and you bring them to the creator of koth mission. See if they will entertain you.

 

Ps I'm off topic here now.  but that happens easily when this is less an actual feedback thread and just more a  make it 1.68 and while you at it make everything in arma revolve around one mission thread .  

Who said dodo bird? I didnt.

Who said jets dlc was unpopular? I didnt.

I didnt even say jets should be castrated, I said I simply dont care, they are all no-talent auto-aim machines if you ask me i.e. press "T" and get points, I dont care because I will never use them because I do my own aiming.

There are many people who can do what I do and better (I still doubt you are one of them from the way you talk about this), that's not the point, the point is that changing such a fundamental aspect to the game is rude to the fan base.

Simply put; Arma has looked great for years, and now it doesn't.

 

...but again, I am asking someone here: why are you trying to stop us getting 1.68 as an option?

 

[Greenfist 1863]

35 minutes ago, Misconduct said:

Sarcasm is always going to be lost in text, particularly when you use it ironically in the same paragraph as other weird logic; for instance the fact that you havn't looked anywhere else suggests you are only looking here, there are many people complaining, you are just selectively listening it seems and you claim that only 6 people care? The omission of information is not prove of non-existence.

Bohemia should care about all the reasons why anyone buys/recommends/likes their product, they should definitely be listening. All we are asking for here is the option to have the same camera we have had for 4 years, why try to stop it?

Did I say I haven't looked elsewhere? Did I say only 6 people care? No and no. It seems anything I say is lost in my text.

I know there are more than six unhappy people, I just can't see them. Can you point us those many people so I can get another perspective on this?

And I can't see anyone trying to deny an option? It simply doesn't seem very likely to happen. In fact, the opposition here is the ones who have tried to deny the new camera by screaming "please revert to 1.68!".

 

IMO, we should stop this campaign here, because it's going nowhere. And maybe come back a little later than 5 days after the hotfix. We could see what more people really think of it, and can the old master pilots really adapt to new things after all.

[teabagginpeople 398]

26 minutes ago, Misconduct said:

Who said dodo bird? I didnt.

no I said dodo bird. it's a bird that could not fly didn't adapt well and went extinct. maybe it had a camera change...

Quote

Who said jets dlc was unpopular? I didnt.

No I was pointing out that jets are popular. because the jets are closer to real world and not your version of "make them less powerful"

 

Quote

I didnt even say jets should be castrated.

but see you did and quote .....Misconduct "and I didnt suggest it but , YES castrate them & the jets "

 

Quote

There are many people who can do what I do and better (I still doubt you are one of them from the way you talk about this).

you seem to be wrong a lot. so you doubt away.

 

Quote

that's not the point, the point is that changing such a fundamental aspect to the game is rude to the fan base.

Simply put; Arma has looked great for years, and now it doesn't.

 

...but again, I am asking someone here: why are you trying to stop us getting 1.68 as an option?

 

1 the first instance was unintended hence the *Hotfix*. I could explain more but it'll be pointless when you read point number 2. so I'll jump to point number 2.

 

2 your reading comprehension and ability to take information in has so far proven lacking in my eyes. now this is the important bit so try stay focused here. read what the Devs said in this very thread. read it 2 more times. then read again. you will understand point 3.

 

3 I'm not trying to STOP anything. if you read point number 2 and grasp it. you will have gone and looked at what devs said. you will then and only then maybe see my word compromise. and finally get it.

 

 

[oukej 2910]

Please stay on topic and refrain from commenting on each other's attitude
The best way to improve the game and help us do the right calls is to stay brief, to the point or even provide simple, clear ingame examples :)

At this point I'd like to encourage you to try setting up the extCameraParams. Think about general awareness, seasickness, usability in attack runs (aim awareness), flight vector and distance perception, etc.
You can post results and findings in here

Thanks a lot!

[RacerX 55]

2 hours ago, oukej said:

Please stay on topic and refrain from commenting on each other's attitude
The best way to improve the game and help us do the right calls is to stay brief, to the point or even provide simple, clear ingame examples :)

At this point I'd like to encourage you to try setting up the extCameraParams. Think about general awareness, seasickness, usability in attack runs (aim awareness), flight vector and distance perception, etc.
You can post results and findings in here

Thanks a lot!

So what are we supposed to do with that link/thread? Why are WE posting changes/findings? Isn't that BI's job to test and fix? When can we expect a fix to the camera? You mentioned nothing about any progress being made to correct the camera problem or a possible hotfix release time.

[Greenfist 1863]

9 minutes ago, RacerX said:

So what are we supposed to do with that link/thread? Why are WE posting changes/findings? Isn't that BI's job to test and fix? When can we expect a fix to the camera? You mentioned nothing about any progress being made to correct the camera problem or a possible hotfix release time.

I assume BI considers it hotfixed for now, since the initial 1.70 version was clearly not intended.

Now we can change it ourselves and demonstrate how it could be even better, so that BI can tweak it further with the next main update, if they see fit.

 

[Trimmer 28]

Okay. How do I go about playing with the extCameraParams?

Lol don't bash me for the question, never really had to tweak this game much. I'm assuming I do this in the DEV branch?

If somebody can point me in the right direction I'll start chopping at it, thanks.

I'm downloading the legacy 1.68 build right now, will this allow me to fly in the original version? I'm excited just to go for a normal flight, LOL!

[RacerX 55]

2 minutes ago, Trimmer said:

Okay. How do I go about playing with the extCameraParams?

Lol don't bash me for the question, never really had to tweak this game much. I'm assuming I do this in the DEV branch?

If somebody can point me in the right direction I'll start chopping at it, thanks.

I don't mind either to begin testing and tweaking if somebody can explain the parameters a little. But I was under the impression the camera had to be changed in the engine coding itself according to @oukej earlier in the thread and we dont have access to that. So do we have access to the camera now? And if so where do we find info on all the scripting/code related stuff?

[Trimmer 28]

I just started flying in editor in the Legacy1.68 version... OMG, it's so pretty! LOL, I missed the old view so much.

Some help with the camparams mentioned earlier would be nice and I'll go back and start messing with it.

Instantly when flying in this legacy build, everything feels so pure, so natural, so intuitive... It's like butter... I can't imagine why anybody would take the new view over the old, it's a no brainer to have left it. It's so much more noticeable switching over to this, just wish I could play on the servers like this :(

[Soiz 2]

With the changed camera (1st and 3rd person) in patch 1.70 you ruined the game for pretty much every experienced pilot. We learned flying with exactly those camera settings for months and years.

Please revert it back or give us the option to choose between the old and new settings.

 

While you are at it, the pawnee has lost its crosshairs on Veteran difficulty and the incoming missile warning sound in general.

[pooroldspike 129]

On 27/05/2017 at 10:52 PM, romille1 said:

Nice screenshots, but you've completely missed our gripe here.  It's a problem that can't be understood by a screenshot, only by a pilot whose spent enough hours flying will understand the full magnitude of the problem....

 

Not guilty! I've been flying assorted flight sims over the past 34 years, including 1500 hours on Arma 3 servers, flying with the old 1.68 static horizon which I liked.

Then when 1.70 introduced the new fluid-horizon I hated it as much as anybody and was glad when BI brought out the hotfix to damp down the fluidity. You can lynch me for saying so but the hotfix horizon has grown on me and I actually (forgive me) like it because you get a nice soft realistic rocking and rolling feeling of being in a real chopper as your body is subjected to g-forces and centrifugal forces. And as developer Oukej mentioned earlier, feedback from jet pilots indicate they like it too.

But if BI decide to revert to 1.68 I can live with that too, so I'm neutral..:) 

Here's my sensational vid again of me throwing a Mohawk around after the 1.70 hotfix, (play it in 720 definition if your browser supports it)-

 

 

[lysan 17]

3rd person view should be illegal anyway but that is just my opinion, I'd help myself out now.....

[Firebird-B4L 51]

On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 0:43 AM, nodunit said:

While not automatic, have you tried using using the DOF in place of zoom? 
Holding control+ numpad 2 will physically move your camera back, so you don't get the fisheye effect.

A lighting storm burned up my power supply (I'm hoping the rest of the components on the computer are fine).  Once my new power supply is delivered and  i'm back on my gaming computer I'll give that a try.  Thanks

[Misconduct 99]

8 hours ago, teabagginpeople said:

no I said dodo bird. it's a bird that could not fly didn't adapt well and went extinct. maybe it had a camera change...

No I was pointing out that jets are popular. because the jets are closer to real world and not your version of "make them less powerful"

 

but see you did and quote .....Misconduct "and I didnt suggest it but , YES castrate them & the jets "

 

you seem to be wrong a lot. so you doubt away.

 

1 the first instance was unintended hence the *Hotfix*. I could explain more but it'll be pointless when you read point number 2. so I'll jump to point number 2.

 

2 your reading comprehension and ability to take information in has so far proven lacking in my eyes. now this is the important bit so try stay focused here. read what the Devs said in this very thread. read it 2 more times. then read again. you will understand point 3.

 

3 I'm not trying to STOP anything. if you read point number 2 and grasp it. you will have gone and looked at what devs said. you will then and only then maybe see my word compromise. and finally get it.

 

 

Taking what I said way out of context, intentionally? I simply don't care about the jets, so castrate them, YES or NO, who cares? This thread is about the helicopter camera.

 I don't see a single point in the 3 points, it reads like:

1.The thing that started this thread happened

2.The devs said... something... and I should re- read it (to this moment they have not commented on reverting or a post hotfix update anywhere on this thread)

3. Despite the fact that you are arguing against me in this debate where I am trying to get a revert or new hotfix, you are somehow not trying to stop it...? and refer to point number 2 for info on that (and try to figure out what a word compromise is)

 

I will follow the Oukej's advice and keep this on point, I think that means no more arguing over perceivably intentional misinterpretations.

[Misconduct 99]

8 hours ago, oukej said:

Please stay on topic and refrain from commenting on each other's attitude
The best way to improve the game and help us do the right calls is to stay brief, to the point or even provide simple, clear ingame examples :)

At this point I'd like to encourage you to try setting up the extCameraParams. Think about general awareness, seasickness, usability in attack runs (aim awareness), flight vector and distance perception, etc.
You can post results and findings in here

Thanks a lot!

Does that mean you are working on a new hotfix or revert to 1.68 for helis? Can we stop the horizon from moving with extCameraParams?

[Firebird-B4L 51]

2 hours ago, pooroldspike said:

Not guilty! I've been flying assorted flight sims over the past 34 years, including 1500 hours on Arma 3 servers, flying with the old 1.68 static horizon which I liked.

I don't doubt your experience at all and you're a great pilot, so am I, Misconduct is completely amazing.  I guess that's not the point here. 

 

The point is that the old camera system has been in place a long time and it took a long time for a lot of the "non-flight simulator style" pilots to learn to push the helicopter to the thresholds of sanity.  The way you landed the Mowhawk in your demonstration video was very, very slow compared to what was possible with the old camera, but it was a nice landing none-the-less.  But that's all it is, a nice, basic slow calculated landing.

 

With the new camera, it's back to the drawing board for the pilots who have been pushing the envelope for a long time.  It should be an option, the rug shouldn't be pulled out from dedicated players feet like this.  

 

 

[Misconduct 99]

9 hours ago, oukej said:

Please stay on topic and refrain from commenting on each other's attitude
The best way to improve the game and help us do the right calls is to stay brief, to the point or even provide simple, clear ingame examples :)

At this point I'd like to encourage you to try setting up the extCameraParams. Think about general awareness, seasickness, usability in attack runs (aim awareness), flight vector and distance perception, etc.
You can post results and findings in here

Thanks a lot!

I see several people have asked how you actually configure this. i.e. what part, of what menu do we access these camera options? Sorry if its a stupid question but I cant find it.

[Greenfist 1863]

10 minutes ago, Misconduct said:

I see several people have asked how you actually configure this. i.e. what part, of what menu do we access these camera options? Sorry if its a stupid question but I cant find it.

extCameraParams is a config variable for a vehicle. So to change it, you need to create a config replacement mod.

[Misconduct 99]

1 minute ago, Greenfist said:

extCameraParams is a config variable for a vehicle. So to change it, you need to create a config replacement mod.

ahhh!

That is probably out of my league, but I will look into it. Does that effect battleye, will it be considered hacking? ... clearly I don't understand what that really does.

 

Thanks for the reply on that~!

[RacerX 55]

yeah but we shouldn't have to run a mod in order to get a correct heli camera. Do that to the jets. There are servers that whitelist/blacklist mods. This is good for testing purposes but not as a permanent solution. The "if you want it fixed,fix it yourself!" attitude I don't think solves the problem especially when it was the jets update that caused all of this and not the heli's. I'll say it again....revert camera to 1.68 breaking the jets,then fix the jets leaving the heli's untouched. I don't understand why this is so hard and I really don't understand why its up to us to come up with a solution we're not the ones on BI's payroll. The solution is "REVERT" then its up to the devs to fix the jets as it should be.