Helicopter camera

[Misconduct 99]

Devs we need this to be REVERTED.

 

I think many of us are done with this game if our time investment is disregarded.

 

My youtube channel is currently "things that used to be possible in King of the Hill"

 

[RacerX 55]

It don't bother me to much. But I do agree putting it back to what it was in 1.68 would make everybody happy and problem solved. IMO adding stuff for the helicopter is the wrong approach. Go back to the beginning by Putting the camera back to where it was before and adding changes to the camera that only effects the JETS ONLY. Put the coding flags on the jets not the helicopters. Just my opinion. Do it right this time guys no half-ass "quick hacks" to appease us. Go back and code it the right way. We are watching you! lol 

[Firebird-B4L 51]

I believe the main problem is with the zoom.  The old camera would zoom out based on speed if first person, and probably in third person too.  Now the camera remains zoomed in too much causing the heli to feel different as well as for the camera movements to seem more exaggerated.  I could be wrong, but if the zoom is fixed I believe the other perceived problems could be only perceived by the zoom and will be resolved.

 

I've been flying many hours.  Arma piloting is my drug, my addiction, my need.  Please, for the sake of Armas veteran, master pilots, take us back or at least give us the option to fly in classic mode, just as you have the option to fly the advanced model or not.

 

Arma is such a great game, I really feel you guys would profit if you'd focus more on fixing the major problems of the game and less on changing what is already so awesome.  You would PROFIT, becuase there is no other game out there that can touch Arma.  Please don't fix what isn't broken anymore.  We love this game and love you guys for making it.

[Trimmer 28]

4 hours ago, Misconduct said:

Devs we need this to be REVERTED.

 

I think many of us are done with this game if our time investment is disregarded.

 

My youtube channel is currently "things that used to be possible in King of the Hill"

 

 

 

LOL, Misconduct... You and I have been shooting comments back and forth on youtube "Robert Hance"

No need to reply to my last comment on the video, I can see you're still not satisfied like me...

Never expected Arma to pull the rug out from under the heli pilots like that. I can't adapt to what they have goin on now. Arma has overcome some hiccups in the past, but this one kinda hit a soft spot for me and they don't seem to really have their hands on it... The "fix" was just a mild version of the same problem.

[peegee 118]

Wait, wait... Isn't the helicopter camera already reverted back?

 

[Trimmer 28]

1 hour ago, peegee said:

Wait, wait... Isn't the helicopter camera already reverted back?

 

No. The camera was improved a bit, but still crap. Go back and look at the comparison here and my description of the differences. 1.70 version is with the hotfix, 1.68 is before the jets dlc was released.

 

[oukej 2910]

5 hours ago, romille1 said:

I believe the main problem is with the zoom.  The old camera would zoom out based on speed if first person, and probably in third person too.  Now the camera remains zoomed in too much causing the heli to feel different as well as for the camera movements to seem more exaggerated.  I could be wrong, but if the zoom is fixed I believe the other perceived problems could be only perceived by the zoom and will be resolved.

Regarding the FoV changes you'll find more info in helicopter fov changes on airspeed thread. With FoV it isn't that simple - changes in FoV or too wide FoV can easily cripple the perception of distance. Saying that we also acknowledge that the initFov in xh-9 heli family may not be the best atm.

 

5 hours ago, Trimmer said:

Okay, aside from the camera disaster... Without question, the left-right movement of the mouse translates to WAY too much yaw/anti-torque/pedal input and I've tried every combination of controls and mouse sensitivities. You can't do a stable manual hover without the nose moving every which direction at the slightest touch of the mouse while in 3rd person. You can't keep it pointed in a certain direction, if you try to pitch and roll out of a hover with the mouse at all, it first gives you a ton of pedal input in the direction you just want to roll and pitch and you just continue yawing beyond what it should... Like there's more pedals in the mouse than ever before... really strange stuff.

Regarding controls sensitivity - there hasn't been any change we're aware of. Can you please start a ticket at https://feedback.bistudio.com/ with details? You can also compare the behaviors in first person (so the perception is not affected by camera changes) in the legacy branch.

 

And as for the camera itself after hotfix - we're watching the feedback closely.

[pooroldspike 129]

Incidentally, the new camera view that we're all complaining about also applies to jets and VTOLs as well as Helicopters. 

Do jet/VTOL pilots like it? I don't seem to see them doing any complaining, or have I missed their thread somewhere?

 

[pooroldspike 129]

3 hours ago, oukej said:

..And as for the camera itself after hotfix - we're watching the feedback closely.

 

To sum up as of 1:30 pm Fri 26th May, I think we're all agreed that the hotfix only partially fixed the 3rd-person view. 

It made helis slightly easier to fly but the view still tends to follow where the nose is pointing up and down and it's like being on a ship in a heavy sea.

Flaring for landing is especially difficult because as the nose pitches up, the view pitches up with it and we lose sight of the ground!

I think most of us would like to see a return to the 1.68 3rd-person because the view always stays pointing horizontally at the horizon no matter whether the nose is pointing up or down, and we don't  have to reach for the seasickness pills..:)

[oukej 2910]

12 minutes ago, pooroldspike said:

Do jet/VTOL pilots like it?

Valid complains that 3rd person camera used to be "suboptimal" (and sim industry non-standard-ish) for aircraft control and flight vector awareness is what triggered the changes in the first place :)

One example https://www.reddit.com/r/arma/comments/5h06zz/aircraft_3rd_person_camera_proof_of_concept/

So from airplane's perspective we've received positive feedback after the change.
VTOLs are a mix of an airplane and helicopter, even when it comes to feedback.

[Trimmer 28]

 

3 hours ago, oukej said:

 

Regarding controls sensitivity - there hasn't been any change we're aware of. Can you please start a ticket at https://feedback.bistudio.com/ with details? You can also compare the behaviors in first person (so the perception is not affected by camera changes) in the legacy branch.

 

And as for the camera itself after hotfix - we're watching the feedback closely.

 

I will investigate the controls in the legacy branch this afternoon. I know I'm dealing with some strange pedal action from my mouse movement. But you're right, perhaps the view is just really messing with me. It's just that I notice this the most when I'm almost at a perfect hover and just making small adjustments and the camera isn't really much of a factor at that point, but I'll look into it further.

Not to be pushy... But can we get a confirmation that further adjustments will be made to the 3rd person camera? To be honest, I don't have any interest in looking into this controls thing if the 3rd person view isn't going to get some more improvements... I understand completely that getting the FOV right at the right speeds to give proper and intuitive perspective can be a tricky thing to get right, that makes sense and thank you for explaining that much.

With all my frustration and confusion regarding the controls, I still need to say that the "zoom" is probably the big priority. But the camera also needs to stay more rigid behind the helicopter during direction changes, and more rigid to the horizon during pitch and altitude changes.  There's a strange effect now, where the camera raises in altitude more than it normally would from a slight flare or sudden pitch up or pitch down...

[Trimmer 28]

39 minutes ago, pooroldspike said:

Incidentally, the new camera view that we're all complaining about also applies to jets and VTOLs as well as Helicopters. 

Do jet/VTOL pilots like it? I don't seem to see them doing any complaining, or have I missed their thread somewhere?

 

 

I can see how some of the changes in the camera can be helpful to jet pilots and vtol pilots. I don't find any good reason to assume that it being good for one aircraft is any indication that it'll good for an aircraft that has completely different flight characteristics and role in scenarios. Unless you're trying to do a tactical landing at T4 with a JET to drop some teammates off, I don't see the difference in satisfaction between different aircraft pilots as something to consider when determining the issue.

[RacerX 55]

@oukej why cant they just put it like it was in 1.68? Then just add camera code for the jets only? Why are they messing with the helis and putting code on top of code to fix the problem in order to save breaking jets? Revert camera code to 1.68 and break the jets. THEN fix the jets. All this camera stuff was for the jets in the first place right? Why cant they just make it simple and only add camera code to the jets leaving the heli camera untouched? I dont understand why they working around the problem. The focus is the jets so why are they adding/removing code for the helis? I think the way they approached it was flawed from the start IMO

[Trimmer 28]

7 minutes ago, RacerX said:

@oukej why cant they just put it like it was in 1.68? Then just add camera code for the jets only? Why are they messing with the helis and putting code on top of code to fix the problem in order to save breaking jets? Revert camera code to 1.68 and break the jets. THEN fix the jets. All this camera stuff was for the jets in the first place right? Why cant they just make it simple and only add camera code to the jets leaving the heli camera untouched? I dont understand why they working around the problem. The focus is the jets so why are they adding/removing code for the helis? I think the way they approached it was flawed from the start IMO

 

Damn RacerX... Now there's a solution! I like your thinking!

I'm sure most of the work for re-introducing the jets will remain, and they would just have to determine how to bring them in without effecting the helicopters...

I'm going to give them the benefit of doubt that it's a lot easier said than done to make all that happen in a timely manner and still have the Jets they've been working on, I don't disregard that they're trying to improve the game and actually giving us free content, I feel they should still go through with the project, but I think they are undermining how awesome their the 1.68 version helicopter was. It was fantastic.

[oukej 2910]

 

24 minutes ago, RacerX said:

@oukej why cant they just put it like it was in 1.68? Then just add camera code for the jets only? Why are they messing with the helis and putting code on top of code to fix the problem in order to save breaking jets? Revert camera code to 1.68 and break the jets. THEN fix the jets. All this camera stuff was for the jets in the first place right? Why cant they just make it simple and only add camera code to the jets leaving the heli camera untouched? I dont understand why they working around the problem. The focus is the jets so why are they adding/removing code for the helis? I think the way they approached it was flawed from the start IMO

Let's just focus on the black box - the result is what's important. Remember that Arma is not just helicopters or just jets. Often the solutions can't be isolated.

We can still iterate on the camera motion. But after the hotfix we have to take more time before coming to conclusions. Please bear with us.

[Theo1143 18]

14 hours ago, RacerX said:

I just tested it. IMO the camera works like it did in 1.68 (before jets DLC). I don't see any issues with it. I can live with it. I am only speaking for myself though. For those having issues with it are you sure you updated your ARMA?

 

Yeah I know right.

Same thing I kinda like the new change, HOWEVER do I "only" use third person while landing "too" quickly...

Then looking at a mission I made earlier which uses unitcapture&play...

This is exactly what people will see when someone with a keyboard pilots the heli.

You can say whatever you want, can't deny this being annoying to say the least.

The cam in the video is unacceptable, me guy is just sitting in the back, why is me cam dancing?!?

[Trimmer 28]

37 minutes ago, theo1143 said:

 

Yeah I know right.

Same thing I kinda like the new change, HOWEVER do I "only" use third person while landing "too" quickly...

Then looking at a mission I made earlier which uses unitcapture&play...

This is exactly what people will see when someone with a keyboard pilots the heli.

You can say whatever you want, can't deny this being annoying to say the least.

The cam in the video is unacceptable, me guy is just sitting in the back, why is me cam dancing?!?

 

Your cam is dancing for 2 reasons. The new camera setup seems raise and lower the camera view way too much from just the slightest pitch inputs. Even though the heli didn't gain or lose altitude, the camera changed altitudes in direct response to the pitch alone (this is a negative effect after the jets release and not the original behavior)... The second reason, the pilot hasn't figured out how to smooth out his forward motion without constant individual inputs. Slowing down the sensitivity a little bit and keeping a constant forward movement of the mouse should eliminate a lot of that dipping just to maintain smooth forward flight. The small forward pitch inputs while moving forward and maintaining altitude was never really a big deal and more of a preference of the pilot to smooth it out or not, but now that the camera is changing altitude with the pitch of the helicopter, it's quite annoying and gives me motion sickness. Not to mention the altitude of your point of view changing as you pitch the helicopter during landing is constantly messing with your perspective and makes it so much more effort to fly naturally...

[Theo1143 18]

4 hours ago, Trimmer said:

 

Your cam is dancing for 2 reasons. The new camera setup seems raise and lower the camera view way too much from just the slightest pitch inputs. Even though the heli didn't gain or lose altitude, the camera changed altitudes in direct response to the pitch alone (this is a negative effect after the jets release and not the original behavior)... The second reason, the pilot hasn't figured out how to smooth out his forward motion without constant individual inputs. Slowing down the sensitivity a little bit and keeping a constant forward movement of the mouse should eliminate a lot of that dipping just to maintain smooth forward flight. It was never really a big deal and more of a preference of the pilot, but now that the camera is changing altitude with the pitch of the helicopter, it's quite annoying and gives me motion sickness.

 

yup...

 

And that is exactly the point, I got over 3000 hours flying helis in arma using a keyboard alone...

I just like many others will never go back and relearn flying on advanced or even with a mouse, why do something you don't like in a video game, exactly.

 

And that is the reason I put it out here, never had motion sickness before in a car or whatever.

Only had it once on a ship and this is causing exactly the same thing.

[FoO2shOot 1]

Hello, the new camera on helicopter is really awfull on  3rd personne! we dont have speed sensation and it's so annoying, we drive at 300kmph like if we drive at 50 kmph.

 

 i have update with the fix its little better but i prefer largely before jet dlc!

 

I use keyboard and not joystick, but perhaps you can put in options a feature that if you use joystick camera is going to be like now or using keyboard camera go since before update??

 

Please can you put the camera like before this jet dlc update?? it's really awfull!

 

Thanks for answer.

 

 

[pooroldspike 129]

3 hours ago, oukej said:

Valid complains that 3rd person camera used to be "suboptimal" (and sim industry non-standard-ish) for aircraft control and flight vector awareness is what triggered the changes in the first place :)

One example https://www.reddit.com/r/arma/comments/5h06zz/aircraft_3rd_person_camera_proof_of_concept/

So from airplane's perspective we've received positive feedback after the change.
VTOLs are a mix of an airplane and helicopter, even when it comes to feedback.

 

Okay, it seems jet pilots like the 1.70 hotfix, so I suggest we give helicopter pilots time to see if they like it too.

Personally I'm beginning to like it myself..:)

But the best solution would be to have 2 in-game menu options (if that's possible) so players can choose which view they want, namely-

3rd-person view (the 1.70 hotfix view)

3rd-person Locked view (exactly like the old 1.68 view)

 

In fact nearly all flight sims already have those 2 views, called by such names as "Spot view', 'Locked spot view', Chase view' etc.

 

 

[Theo1143 18]

1 hour ago, pooroldspike said:

 

Okay, it seems jet pilots like the 1.70 hotfix, so I suggest we give helicopter pilots time to see if they like it too.

Personally I'm beginning to like it myself..:)

But the best solution would be to have 2 in-game menu options (if that's possible) so players can choose which view they want, namely-

3rd-person view (the 1.70 hotfix view)

3rd-person Locked view (exactly like the old 1.68 view)

 

In fact nearly all flight sims already have those 2 views, called by such names as "Spot view', 'Locked spot view', Chase view' etc.

 

 

 

Agree to disagree, can you really give people motion sickness by sitting in the back of a heli and call this acceptable?

The thing is while I can change into 1st person which many pilots do while flying it is not a problem.

But again the game is for a bigger audience so games like invade and annex would never been played...

Game modes like koth will see a dramatically change from heli's to cars, just because they can't see sh*t in the back of a heli or get sick in 3th person.

 

While you can blame a person for using a keyboard over a controller on a pc game which is already ridiculous enough...

You can't blame a person in the back of a heli for the pilot flying with a keyboard.

[RacerX 55]

4 hours ago, oukej said:

 

Let's just focus on the black box - the result is what's important. Remember that Arma is not just helicopters or just jets. Often the solutions can't be isolated.

We can still iterate on the camera motion. But after the hotfix we have to take more time before coming to conclusions. Please bear with us.

I hope you dont take offense to my remarks. Im not mad. Im not blaming you. Im just trying to understand the problem. But what are the chances we get another hotfix for the helis? They are already working on the malden terrain which if I understand it correctly is part of another separate dlc. If this is the case I sure hope we dont have to wait for that to release first

https://forums.bistudio.com/forums/topic/140837-development-branch-changelog/?do=findComment&comment=3194146

[Firebird-B4L 51]

I'm not a dev and never have been one and can't relate to the amount of hard work, "blood, sweat, and tears" coupled with technical knowledge that must go into a day at the office trying to get a game of this awesomeness and magnitude to work right and appease such a demanding crowd as Arma gamers. 

 

On the other side of the coin a great majority of Arma--the few, the proud, the veteran and ace heli pilots who have invested a great deal of "virtual" blood, sweat, and tears, and cursewords mastering one of Arma's main and most beautiful components (the helicopter)--were wiped out overnight.  I remember one update that actually made helis start exploding at the slightest touch of the ground or tree leaf.  So be it.  Another obstacle, frustration that just weeded out the weak and pounded the tenacious few into even better pilots. 

 

Such a drastic change to us who invest so much time to learn and fly well and stand out as the best of the best in this awesome game were dealt a really frustrating blow.  That's old news here, but nonetheless, a huge shocker to the heli community when we turn on our game and can't play anymore and our squad play slowly dies out and our future vision for the game diminishes.

 

I don't know how hard it would be to have the old heli controls back, but they were nothing short of amazing and perfect the way they were.  The first and third person zoom out were brilliant.  It was spot on and our squad (B4L--BluForLife) has countless hours of video and memories in-game from the use of a heli; from the "Redneck Pawnee" that we've perfected down to incredible hotzone insertions (and my latest addiction the hummingbird freestyle) which is now seems like a fading dream.  I had plans to start up hummingbird/heli games--timetrials, courses, and the heli olympics.  These dreams seem all but lost overnight.  May sound strange, but our relationship and to the game revolved around the helicopter so much and now all that we had was instantly gone.

 

Thanks for hearing our pleas and listening and having the hotfix out so fast.  don't let me overlook that.  Now, how hard is it to revert back?  

 

Thanks for a wonderful game that has given so many of us countless memories and hours of enjoyment.

 

--Firebird [B4L] 

[Misconduct 99]

Firebird, you said it all man.

 

Devs, please revert. We are watching this community die...

Ok thats an overstatement but it is dead for me, after 4 years of playing they just change a fundamental aspect of the game and make it nearly unplayable and simply unpleasant to look at, if this is not reverted why would I invest any more time into this when they might change it for no reason again.

[pooroldspike 129]

6 hours ago, theo1143 said:

 

Agree to disagree, can you really give people motion sickness by sitting in the back of a heli and call this acceptable?

The thing is while I can change into 1st person which many pilots do while flying it is not a problem.

But again the game is for a bigger audience so games like invade and annex would never been played...

Game modes like koth will see a dramatically change from heli's to cars, just because they can't see sh*t in the back of a heli or get sick in 3th person.

 

While you can blame a person for using a keyboard over a controller on a pc game which is already ridiculous enough...

You can't blame a person in the back of a heli for the pilot flying with a keyboard.

 

I'm not sure what you're saying muchacho, all the dozen or so KOTH servers that I play on have got 1st or 3rd-person options, and nearly everybody plays in 3rd-p (as I do myself) because 3rd-p is hugely popular.

For example nobody wants to sit in the back of a chopper in 1st-p where they can't see much, we prefer to be outside in 3rd-p.

In fact I often can't get into some KOTH servers because they're  full up with about 110 guys, so I have to find another KOTH server with fewer players..:)