Server monetization program

[taro8 806]

Modding requires very similar or mostly the same skills as the game development so its not like I look at it as something not worth the label of job. I simply don't want to see the communities go out in a massive orgy of greed, selfishness and dickery. You may say that I have very low opinion on the community if I think like that, but money changes the rules so much its not even funny.

[Killjoyy 170]

5 hours ago, Macser said:

Just so my tone is clear. I'm not sitting here angrily smashing the keyboard and shouting.  Just in case it comes across that way. I'm not really for or against anything being discussed. 

 

 

You're entitled to an opinion, just like me, or anyone else here. But that's a statement. You , or I, don't get to tell anyone else what is, or isn't considered a job. Which if you look at it sensibly, is just a task performed, or service rendered, for a fee.

 

I've never understood why some things are not looked upon as jobs and others are. If you get paid for something on a regular basis, it's a job. It doesn't matter what it is. If game developers, artists or musicians, took that line of reasoning, the world might be a very boring place to be. I know for a fact that they quite often have to listen to comments like "get a real job". If they took that advice, this thread for example might not exist.

 

You too are entitled to your own opinion, but let's not get facts construed here. 

 

You can't correlate having a hobby and having a paid taxable job. By definition a hobby is an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure. Even the United States Internal Revenue Service defines a hobby as not having intent of generating revenue, so they don't even consider it taxable lol.  No one is saying the work put into a mod isn't "real or worth it", there's just a clear difference between having a hobby and having a job. If you're trying to establish yourself for doing negotiated PAID WORK, that's different from what people in this thread have been suggesting. Lastly I think I do have a real compliant with the amount of arma servers that get created daily. No one is saying you shouldn't strive to meet your goal of creating an arma community, all I'm saying is if you can't afford it you shouldn't be looking for handouts.

 

[Guest]

You can for sure, just ask for donations from the players that play on your server. Simple as that.

 

And those that waste much money in a hobby are for sure pretty frustated with their own lifes.

[Macser 776]

I'm not trying to draw a comparison between a hobby and a job. Once you start getting paid for it, it becomes work. The issue for me is that a lot of people think anything related to modding should be considered a hobby. And never be anything else. It's one thing to make that decision for yourself. But advocating to ensure there's no choice in the matter, for others, is something different.

 

At least people are talking about it here though. Unlike the disgusting behaviour witnessed in the Skyrim debacle.

[taro8 806]

"I want to shit on our dining table!"

"You cannot shit on the dining table."
"Why?"

"Because it will stink and we wont be able to use our dining table."

"But I really need to void my bowels right now!"

"No."
"WHY DO YOU TAKE AWAY MY RIGHT TO SHIT ON OUR DINING TABLE!?"

[x3kj 1247]

 

30 minutes ago, taro8 said:

"I want to shit on our dining table!"

"You cannot shit on the dining table."
"Why?"

"Because it will stink and we wont be able to use our dining table."

"But I really need to void my bowels right now!"

"No."
"WHY DO YOU TAKE AWAY MY RIGHT TO SHIT ON OUR DINING TABLE!?"

So what you are trying to say with that is that mods are shit?

[taro8 806]

Of course not, but, for me, selling them is equivalent of shitting on a dinner table.

[Macser 776]

I understand that. And I know there's plenty of others who feel the same way. But there's quite a few who don't. But they won't mention it, for fear of being demonised. It's literally being viewed as something evil. And anyone who supports it, or rather sees no reason to obstruct it, is somehow morally bankrupt. Considering we're talking about a game, that's taking things a bit too far for me.

 

Modders aren't curing cancer or feeding starving children. So why is it viewed as something untouchable or altruistic? 

 

Are there any facts to support the idea that monetisation ruins everything? Facts and statistics, if it's possible in this case, would make a more convincing argument either way.

 

Polls can be helpful in getting a consensus, but they don't reflect the reasoning behind a decision. And it only really works well when most or all of the concerned parties bother to cast a vote. Which is hard to do.

 

The question, for me at least, isn't whether or not you yourself want to avail of monetisation. But rather, do you want to obstruct people from having a choice, should it become available?

 

 

[taro8 806]

7 hours ago, Macser said:

Modders aren't curing cancer or feeding starving children. So why is it viewed as something untouchable or altruistic?

 

 

Because they do stuff for free, out of passion, and share it, so others can also enjoy? Because modding communities are pretty much universally good environments where you can find help and make first steps in stuff like coding and digital graphics? Because modders for the most part are good blokes that tend to help others in modding? Because mods fix and improve games?

 

Paid modding is a giant pile of crap, example: the raging dumbster fire that was paid modding for Skyrim.

 

If you want modding monetization DO NOT INTRODUCE IT INTO LONG STANDING, ESTABLISHED COMMUNITY IN MIDDLE OF THE GAMES LIFE! GabeN said they shouldn't have done that with Skyrim.

 

I do not want to see a good thing getting destroyed just in the name of few bucks.

[ProfTournesol 956]

6 minutes ago, taro8 said:

 

Because they do stuff for free, out of passion, and share it, so others can also enjoy? Because modding communities are pretty much universally good environments where you can find help and make first steps in stuff like coding and digital graphics? Because modders for the most part are good blokes that tend to help others in modding?

 

Macser is doing all this mate.

[taro8 806]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc7Onhy-WQg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emW15aLYbp4

[Macser 776]

I'm not modding for A3. Although most of the time I've spent helping people out over the past year in particular, has been A3 related,oddly enough.  

 

There's some valid points in the videos. But like you and I they're people with opinions. I still don't get this notion of "purity" that keeps cropping up. For me that sounds a bit odd when put into the context of a game.

 

Skyrim was an example of how not to do it. Not necessarily an example of why it should never happen. I don't think it could work without some involvement from the company, regarding policing and management. But there's also the likelihood it won't pan out economically anyway. If people aren't buying, it can't be sustained. 

 

I still don't know the facts surrounding Skyrim to be honest. There was so much static from a certain group of very noisy toxic individuals it was hard for me to get engaged in it. I was repulsed by how poisonous it became. Had I been a modder in that environment I'd have left it immediately and never looked back.

 

They definitely made it very difficult for people to have a balanced argument. Mostly because of fear of reprisal or harassment . It's not a community when a bunch of chinless cowardly windbags are allowed swan around unchecked.

 

It'd be nice to see people get a choice, and not have to feel like a pariah in doing so. I'd like to think this community, in particular, is above that. 

[taro8 806]

I've been there in the trenches and I'm still active in Skyrim's modding. The community actually came out pretty well. Chesko (the guy that did the fishing mod) retired briefly, but returned to Skyrim's modding and people seem to made up after the whole fiasco. ATM its business as usual, the FO4 modding kinda fizzled out, most likely due to Beth releasing the tools rather late, and the Skyrim Special Edition means a lot of mods get some new attention due to ports and such.

 

As for opinions: opinions are like ass-holes, everybody has one and everyone's smells .

 

I have nothing against patreon or some tip jar. Charging for mods like products is different ball game though. It's a Pandora's box I do not wish to see opened in any community.

[Macser 776]

Fair enough. 

 

I think this poll could be of some real use if people would just get in there and cast a vote. In fact I'd encourage people, if they're on the proverbial fence, to go ahead and do it. Especially if it's something you think affects you or this community. We can argue until our fingers bleed, and we run out of breath. But I think a decisive vote is hard to argue with. Whether it's for or against, it could at least go some small way to putting the issue to rest.

 

173 votes is a drop in the ocean.

 

I sound like a campaign politician. 

[PuFu 4600]

On 2/21/2017 at 10:31 PM, Macser said:

I'm not trying to draw a comparison between a hobby and a job. Once you start getting paid for it, it becomes work. The issue for me is that a lot of people think anything related to modding should be considered a hobby. And never be anything else. It's one thing to make that decision for yourself. But advocating to ensure there's no choice in the matter, for others, is something different.

well most don't consider that modding = hobby. It can also turn into a job. But if it does:

1. it's not a hobby anymore (as you said)

2. there better be some sort of real framework for it

 

While there are quite a few addon makers in this thread, i am pretty sure the average user voted no - why would one spend real money on something he got used to receiving free so far (might also add that without actually knowing the real value of it...)

 

i for one would be pretty happy to earn a buck out of it. As a 3d artist, i already have, in relation to what i do as modding, but outside the modding community in itself.

[kiory 405]

1 hour ago, PuFu said:

well most don't consider that modding = hobby. It can also turn into a job. But if it does:

1. it's not a hobby anymore (as you said)

2. there better be some sort of real framework for it

 

While there are quite a few addon makers in this thread, i am pretty sure the average user voted no - why would one spend real money on something he got used to receiving free so far (might also add that without actually knowing the real value of it...)

 

i for one would be pretty happy to earn a buck out of it. As a 3d artist, i already have, in relation to what i do as modding, but outside the modding community in itself.

If it wasn't for our skills and years of learning, I doubt we would of got that gig with BI themselves, was an awesome experience. 

I just want to chime in a bit though, while yes, people haven't been paying for mods, for decades, the truth of the matter is that mods are in a place where they can quite often be better made compared to the actual developers work, I'm not saying BI specifically, I'm speaking generally, there's more effort, more hours going into it these days.

Sure, there's some real trash out there, why would anyone wanna pay for trash?

But there's a lot of good too, and if addon makers started fresh on something that wasn't originally free, presented in a way that's on par or above the official work, I think that warrants some kind of pay. 

I wonder if BI could look at a system where they vet submissions, which they can then sell directly as DLC, something like that? I believe you can do this with VBS and BISIM, if you have a license, so BI could potentially look at something like that.

 

I don't know, I think something like that could work, BI makes money, addon creators make money, it's far more official if it comes from BI directly and people are much more willing to accept that, rather than giving mod makers free reign, obviously that would be a disaster.

:Edit:

Just some additional thoughts, if BI did go the licensing route, I would quite happily pay £50 - £100 per annum just to have the rights to sell DLC under their name.

[dragon01 902]

The way I see it, modding is a hobby. Generally, a hobbyist does something because it's fun for him/herself. Modders generally make things they themselves want or need in the game, or which they simply feel like making. Any request that gets fulfilled is just an act of generosity, as are any donations the modder gets.

 

Now, with money, you change all that. Modders can choose to monetize their mods, but if they choose to be paid for their work, that means they are forced to provide support to their paying customers and make sure they get what they paid for (otherwise it's fraud). Now, go see how the community (modders and especially their die-hard fans) react to entitlement. You do not want to make it so that it's the entitled people who are in the right, and that's what will happen if money enters the equation.

 

There are things far more important than money, a fact which is often lost on people. It tends to get put in front of everything and blind people to things that are actually important. This community itself is worth more than any money that could be made from selling mods, monetization would only splinter and damage it, especially since many players are from places like Russia, where even if you do happen to have plenty of money, it's not worth much when converted to dollars. And I don't think any modder would be bothered to set prices by region, the way Steam does.

 

For perspective, your 100 GBP per annum is over 7000 RUB or 500 PLN. You'll be hard pressed to find a modder from Poland willing to fork over 500 PLN per year for a licensing program. The good thing about things that come free is that zero is zero regardless of which currency it's in, which puts people from different countries on equal footing.

[Guest]

The actual state of the Arma community is consequence of the ones that supposedly lead it by indisputable merit.

All that you despises now, is consequence of your stupidity. Is consequence of half-humam actions.

Mostly think Arma modders don't deserve respect. But they deserve to be fooled, yes. And those who think that, are now more inportant than you.

[Macser 776]

@donnovan

Could you clarify that? I don't fully understand what you're trying to say. 

 

@dragon01

You're right. On a personal level it can be a hobby. But there's nothing inherently hobbyist about it. It's just a tradition. A perception. It's still a personal choice. And I don't see why that would automatically change. 

 

But it would need to be done correctly. The Skyrim incident was probably the worst possible example. From my point of view that didn't fail simply because it was a bad idea. That failed because of the concerted effort of loudmouths, a lack of standards and no policing.

 

As for the subject of entitlement. If you pay for something the same things to apply to that as would anything else you buy. So if that means keeping it updated, then that's how it should be. That's not an entitlement. I'd say that's reasonable expectation. The mod/addon should remain functional and in line with official updates. 

 

Entitlement is expecting someone else to bend to our will, regardless of how they feel about it. And in relation to their work. An unreasonable expectation that they should not have an option under any circumstances. And reinforcing it with harassment and abuse.

 

If there was some criteria, standard or vetting process, that, in of itself, would reduce the quantity of material. Someone who's going to do a set of novelty hats, with the bare minimum of effort, probably isn't going to want to go through that. And that's assuming they'd have their submission allowed. Likely leaving a smaller but more focused group of people willing to invest the extra time and effort to create something of note. IF they chose to avail of it, I don't people like Pufu or Kiory would have problems meeting a set standard, for example.

 

Whether or not that's economically viable for a company to support, or if the market would be big enough to sustain itself, is arguable.

 

I don't think a knowledgeable modder expects it to be like a 9 to 5 job. It would likely be a supplementary source rather than primary.

 

I think what Kiory suggested previously would be a good option. If it's under license it would fall under the direct control of the company. Whether they want that responsibility is another matter of course.

[dragon01 902]

19 minutes ago, Macser said:

Entitlement is expecting someone else to bend to our will, regardless of how they feel about it. And in relation to their work. An unreasonable expectation that they should not have an option under any circumstances. And reinforcing it with harassment and abuse.

So, what kind of expectation is "reasonable"? If you paid for something, you have every right to expect the person who sold it to you to bend to your will, at least as far as the contract goes. "Harassment and abuse"? Or maybe just rightfully demanding what you paid for? Things are clear cut when there's no money involved. When there is money, feelings cease to matter. People have every right to feel entitled to something they paid for. This is exactly what causes paid modding to come crashing down. 

 

I'm fine with waiting half a year for a free mod, say, RHS to update. But if I paid for it, I'd have every right to demand a prompt fix for every bug, timely updates to keep it working with the latest ArmA and quality appropriate to the price I paid. I would have every right to bug them about updates, too. So would everyone who has bought the mod. Such a situation would certainly not be fun for the team, and they wouldn't be able to give any of the usual responses to such behavior, because those people had paid them. "It's done when it's done" doesn't do when you're dealing with paying customers. 

 

Modding is a hobby because in the end, one way or another, you're piggybacking off someone else's work. You do that because you enjoy this work and making your own additions to it, but all modding is ultimately derivative. Some parts (notably modeling) are not, but in the end, the finished product depends on the "source material". Only proper "total conversions" leave this territory and you occasionally do see them going standalone or even getting sold for money, but then, they're by nature separate games that happen to share an engine with another game. 

 

However, if it starts to involve money, fun becomes secondary and money becomes primary. This is true for both authors and players. In the end, I see no way it could improve community. If you feel modders should be paid for their work, pay them. I prefer to show my appreciation in other ways, like providing suggestions for improving their work (bug reports, feedback and the like) or even directly helping improve the mod. That's fine, too. Nobody is legally bound to anything and nobody has to worry that the "small" price in dollars is actually a fortune in the local currency. Let it stay that way, thank you very much. Contests like MANW or even full-on mod "buyouts" like what happened with DayZ are a good idea of making sure modders get recognition and rewards for their work.

[Macser 776]

I'm not addressing you specifically in regards to entitlement. Just in case there's any misunderstanding. 

 

51 minutes ago, dragon01 said:

So, what kind of expectation is "reasonable"? If you paid for something, you have every right to expect the person who sold it to you to bend to your will, at least as far as the contract goes. "Harassment and abuse"? Or maybe just rightfully demanding what you paid for? Things are clear cut when there's no money involved. When there is money, feelings cease to matter. People have every right to feel entitled to something they paid for. This is exactly what causes paid modding to come crashing down. 

 

That's exactly what I meant. There's a difference between entitlement and a reasonable expectation. As in, it's reasonable to expect a mod/addon, or any program you buy, to work correctly and be in line with official updates.

 

If a modder gets into that arena that's something they should expect to deal with. But there shouldn't be any more expected of them than there would be of an in-house team developing a DLC for example. I think that's reasonable. Whether or not they want to take that option, is not up to me. And I don't think it should be. That's for an individual to decide.

 

Which paid modding are you referring to? The only real example I know of, relates to Skyrim. And for me that isn't worth considering because it was so ill-thought out.  

 

Dragon, what are you basing your position on? What evidence has shown you that the community as a whole would collapse into chaos, simply because a modder has the option to put a price on something?That's not rhetorical. That's a genuine question. I can only form an objective opinion based on available information.

[sancron 32]

In my opinion, Mods for Arma should stay free for all.

 

Because, when i pay for a Mod, i also want Support and Customer-Support can be very frustrating. So if people sell Mods, they should need to Support it until the last official Patch for the Game is released. That's my personal opinion and i know, creating Mods for Arma can be a full time work. But if people want to make money with their 3d-Work as example, there are other ways they can be collect some money (cgtrader, etc.).

 

But what should be with Donations or Patreon, that Creators can use to collect some money from Fans, that would like to say thankyou.

[kiory 405]

1 hour ago, sancron said:

In my opinion, Mods for Arma should stay free for all.

 

Because, when i pay for a Mod, i also want Support and Customer-Support can be very frustrating. So if people sell Mods, they should need to Support it until the last official Patch for the Game is released. That's my personal opinion and i know, creating Mods for Arma can be a full time work. But if people want to make money with their 3d-Work as example, there are other ways they can be collect some money (cgtrader, etc.).

 

But what should be with Donations or Patreon, that Creators can use to collect some money from Fans, that would like to say thankyou.

Take it from someone who knows, this community is not generous, having an option to donate is pointless, because it's already an option, I could add a button on my addon releases on this forum, and I would get zilch.

I think my earnings from donations here are around $15? Something like that, in what... 4 years of doing arma modding?

Now, I've made a lot more money from people coming to me, asking me to create assets and paying me for me services, people from this forum and many other places. I don't charge extra if I'm needed to port assets over to Arma 3, I actually enjoy it, for the most part. This tells me people are willing to pay, sometimes a decent amount.

At this point, all I'm seeing is addon creators and a few people here and there, putting words into peoples mouths, speaking for a community that doesn't even know what's going on, most of which don't even spend their time here.

Creating a poll here isn't reaching out, it's playing it safe, this poll is a grain of sand in a vast desert.

[Macser 776]

@Kiory

Polls aren't always a good barometer. As we've seen with the recent US elections. But in this case, if people got engaged in it and cast a vote it might at least make things a bit clearer regarding the general feeling here. Because I know there's a lot of people that won't publicly voice an opinion on such a contentious issue. It shouldn't be that way. But it is. And there's many who think not discussing it, makes it go away. Which is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and humming.

 

I honestly don't mind which path it takes. I'm just curious as to the real reasoning behind people's decisions.

 

@sancron

Ok. You're suggesting that your beliefs should be applied to something you had no part in creating? Am I correct? Or misunderstanding you?

 

Why do you assume that a responsible person wouldn't want to support their work? Or couldn't?

 

Why can't a donation system co-exist with a fee based model? What makes them mutually exclusive?

[Guest]

I had received some generous donations back when i was a very... unskilled scripter.

So i believe donations are a matter of heart.

I really dont deserve that donations as a scripter but may be i did something inportant in their lifes.

And now that i have smashed all my enemies (enemies?) I sit alone at the top of... nothing.