Low reaction to official news, updates, community interaction - why?

[Rydygier 1317]

Personally I feel rather satisfied as for dev-community interaction, even if personally have no time/mind power left to participate (even to play, not mentioning any serious modding last year and half), I feel, like noticeable improvements was made here regardless. Especially dev branch AI discussions I perceive like potentially valuable dialog - I wish I have more time/mind power to follow them. I just hope, extensive PR will not distract devs too much from actual work. Necessity of explaining, what one is doing (to PR guy or community directly, whatever) distracts from doing itself, which maybe even annoys, as would annoy me, I guess. 

 

And yes, I know well that thought every game update - "hm, wonder, what's broken this time". Discouraging and frustrating for sure. Tiring - yes. But hardly surprising. Modding a game, that is under constant development leads to exactly that consequences - it's simple logic and should be considered before I start to mod/play anything, to ask myself at the start - am I OK with that? Still, it's an actual problem.

 

How to solve it? Abandon any post-release game development, do all the stuff at early access, and allow any modding only after this stage is complete? Refrain from modding/mission making till final patch? But would a game of Arma type financially live long enough to see final patch without any user made content allowed in the meantime? How many of the improvements, we get, wouldn't be possible, if problem wasn't spotted and reported during someone's modding/mission making activities? So what else? Some super-neat development that ensures 100% backward user-made content compatibility? Sounds nice, but how?

 

Abandon any fixes and improvements, that could break already user-created content? Or do it and break someone's favourite content/frustrate some modders? That's the question, where both answers have own drawbacks. 

[bad benson 1733]

while i personally also am not super blown away by all those "REPs" i gotta say that i often pick up things from them that i might've missed otherwise. i wouldn't ever expect to be amazed by them though. it's not like arma is some new exciting game in developement where every dev blog is going to make you dream of the final product. it's more of them having updated their PR game. might seem awkward at times but the information must be made public somehow. i also love the launcher implementation. without it i probably wouldn't have read any of the reps lol.

 

 

@brighcandle: well put. although i'd rather have them fix long time issues or generally push the engine forward rather than being too careful, i just wish it all would've happened before any of us got their hands on the game. 

 

i've been making fun of their "release" from the start since it was quite obvious that this is going to be an endless WIP even after that imaginary milestone date. the sooner one comes to terms with that the better.

 

this whole early access thing is shit.

all it does is give devs and excuse to sell unfinished games and use the community for free QA and bug testing. i'm not accusing anyone of ill intend. the game was way cheaper afterall. i just feel that the system promotes bad planning and stuff. this may sound like a grandpa but having a deadline is not always a bad thing.

 

all this with keeping in mind that the actual devs "in the trenches" losing real hair over squeezing new features into this weird old engine are not equal with "the BI" and whatever drives it (whoever calls the shots).

 

 

I don't want to go into the merits of this post I'm linking. I only share it because it is yet another example of people being burned out by constant changes to the game engine, and as a result, not being able to tailor their content properly to work again.

http://2017mod.com

 

can their progress be downloaded somewhere or will they never release anything? sounds like the map is potentially going to be released. while i agree that patches are a major pain in the ass i really hate seeing mods be developed not releasing any milestones and then just disappearing. so blue balls inducing.

 

also makes it seem like even more of a waste of time for all involved. but i get it. i'd just love to play what they already had. total conversions are pretty rare for arma.

[brightcandle 114]

JSRS is a classic example of how annoying the relationship for the community can be. LordJarhead had his first release of JSRS for Arma 3 ready and releases it and 1 week later he gets completely blind-sided by a massive breaking audio shake-up that destroys a lot of his work and makes the mod no longer work. Given how important JSRS has been over the longer term for the series you would have thought that BI would have given him a heads up about the change coming, but for "marketing" reasons they chose to hide its existence from everybody including the modders they knew would have their work destroyed. We very nearly didn't get a JSRS release at all and it took a long while for it to come out.

 

That isn't right and every single mod author is seeing the same thing. Every community reporting bugs is seeing no progress on the problems they face. The performance problem with the game has been the number 1 priority since the very first alpha, and honestly we have seen little to no progress on it in all these years. BI does what it wants when it wants to and breaking changes are usually secrets until its too late and it breaks a lot of stuff. Visibility is all mod authors really need, that and an ability to hold onto older releases for longer so they can choose when they deal with the updates (and so communities can fix the game on an old version). We have a dependency graph we need to ensure we can control the most unstable part the game itself.

 

IMO Bohemia Interactive really needs to think long and hard about why every release is getting a hotfix. Often these bugs would have been obvious with a very simple initial test and if they were in a RC build the community would have reported the problems. They just don't seem to appreciate the point of having the community test stuff, this isn't a marketing strategy and if you treat it as one then the community becomes jaded and ignore it. We should not be receiving a game patch that has a breaking change not present in an RC at this point.. Its an abusive relationship, they treat people who are helping their game sell like dirt and its all unnecessary.

[Rydygier 1317]

Wasn't changes in the audio system/config announced in advance truly? I'm not sure now, but I do remember, some upcoming changes, that would require mod updating, was announced before they happened. Or it was personal armor config changes? Perhaps not always, not early enough ("not all" modders have time for updates 24/7). IMHO it wouldn't hurt anyone, while such changes would be announced well before, in public, at single dedicated, know to all spot, say a highlighted thread on these forums. 

 

Game's market success rely heavily on the modders and user-made content in general, it was oficially said IIRC, so it seems pretty reasonable to rather keep modders invested and even bring new while avoiding stuff, that discourages and frustrates them. I believe, that's the intent at least.

 

BTW I read somewhere, they refrain from doing some changes, because these could break official campaign (likely some AI stuff). I don't know, how it is, but I would without any hesitation here and right now sacrifice whole campaign for some sweet AI improvements. Still, if they do this for official campaign, why not for at least most popular mods, if in fact these are more important. Of course - a game with broken official campaign sounds terrible in outside world PR, so from that point of view perhaps easier to allow break mods, than keep updating official campaign.

 

And still - I would definitelly prefer to see game developed further (I perceive development in whole series perspective, not single title) than mods and the more official campaign kept intact - on the cost of stagnation. Consistent, well highlighted announcements in advance can reduce the pain anyway. After all, perhaps is possible even such model of long term game development, that would hurt modding less? Say, avoiding changes hurting mods in the post-release game development, keeping such changes rather for the next title? 

[BL4DE 91]

It almost seems like Bohemia is using a rolling release development model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_delivery

But I'm not sure since they are working on multiple code branches so maybe it doesn't qualify as rolling release.

 

IMO the problem is that there isn't enough programmers throwing code at a project of such proportion and Q.A. department is doing a poor job if there even is one. The result is very very long development time with endless and delayed patching and exhausted customers.

Playing Arma 3 is like using Arch Linux as your main OS. You cross your fingers before an update and brace for mod breakage that will need constant fixing.

 

I guess there's a reason AAA companies generally develop bigger projects than compared to Indie ones (considering their budgets and amount of  overworked code punchers). Not sure if Bohemia still qualifies as a typical Indie company.

 

Arma might be the most ambitious, over-engineered game with insane complexity. And ofcourse it drags behind all the legacy cruft maybe all the way from 2001 which requires crappy hacks to get around the engine limitations and double the effort to maintain.

 

So I'm not sure what is there to be done for a project of such proportion. Maybe a different, technically streamlined engine for the next Arma game would make life easier for the developers maybe not. Maybe BIS just doesn't have the budget to develop at an accelerated speed.

[bars91 956]

*snip

 

BI is developing the new Enfusion engine for their future games.

DayZ SA already transferred to it in a recent update.

It's still a work in progress and a deep one it seems.

 

As for being indie or not - they have 2 games that tap into mainstream trends:

 

-DayZ SA for zombie/survival crowd

-Take on Mars for space semi-sim crowd

 

And ArmA 3 for... well... I don't even know. It's not a full-on tactical milsim any more, and not a true casual shoot-em-up...

^that's pretty much the problem (judging from this and other topics)

[bad benson 1733]

And ArmA 3 for... well... I don't even know. It's not a full-on tactical milsim any more, and not a true casual shoot-em-up...

^that's pretty much the problem (judging from this and other topics)

 

you are talking about the campaigns and missions though, right?

 

correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the game itself more simulation than ever before? stamina system and sway, advanced helo flight model, way more complex inventory management. i think some of the targeting stuff (missile lock on) might be different and mor simple but to be totally honest, i never really felt it to be compelling so i can't really tell if it changed that much.

[Gunter Severloh 4064]

I love how people cry about campaigns/missions Bis made, a certain crowd dislikes the game now, and people quit or whatever, really?  Do better or find better, its just a mission,

its not the heart and soul of the game unlike other games where thats all they have aside MP, and maybe another mode you can play.

Bis's work isn't about creating campaigns, their campaigns and missions they do create are just a side bonus so you can test the waters so to speak at least in my opinion.

 

Theres about 500+ missions,modes, and shit ton of other campaigns on Armaholic you could play, why dislike a whole game on something that you could recreate

and do better in the editor of all places,do people forget that Arma is about options, freedom, and diversity, if you dont like something then change it, do it better, mod it ect,.

 

Having that ability to edit, add, customize, and create is what this game since day one of the series has been about.

imo you wont really find a company like BIS that constantly reports, keeps you up to date, as well constantly working on it, and let themselves be known in dev blogs you look at other games and im sure

there are some like Bis with similar work ethic there isn't any other game that I like where I have and would spend 16yrs of my life playing like I did in this series!

This game like games similar where you can mod the hell out of it, are gems in the gaming industry.  One word describes this game -     F r e e d o m

[BL4DE 91]

I love how people cry about campaigns/missions Bis made, a certain crowd dislikes the game now, and people quit or whatever, really?  Do better or find better, its just a mission,

its not the heart and soul of the game unlike other games where thats all they have aside MP, and maybe another mode you can play.

Bis's work isn't about creating campaigns, their campaigns and missions they do create are just a side bonus so you can test the waters so to speak at least in my opinion.

 

Yes, yes modding and mission editor are wonderful tools that extend game's life. But campaings used to be one of BIS priorities up until Arma3.

You don't realize that a lot of people enjoyed Cold War Crisis, Resistance, Harvest Red, Eagle Wing, Operation Arrowhead, Crimson Lance and others. Looking at previous games it's quite obvious that there was a much bigger focus on official singleplayer content. Nowadays BIS enjoys capitalising on community made work. And community campaigns tend to be unpolished, buggy with no voice acting or amateurish one at best and poor scripting with performance impact.

 

Gotta love the mindset "create your own campaign". That's like saying "write a book yourself so you have something to read".

[gossamersolid 155]

Yes, yes modding and mission editor are wonderful tools that extend game's life. But campaings used to be one of BIS priorities up until Arma3.

You don't realize that a lot of people enjoyed Cold War Crisis, Resistance, Harvest Red, Eagle Wing, Operation Arrowhead, Crimson Lance and others. Looking at previous games it's quite obvious that there was a much bigger focus on official singleplayer content.

What are you on about? The last good campaign by BIS before Arma 3 was Resistance. Arma's campaign and Arma 2's campaign was constantly complained about...

Arma 3's campaign is one of the best ones made.

[slatts 1978]

What are you on about? The last good campaign by BIS before Arma 3 was Resistance. Arma's campaign and Arma 2's campaign was constantly complained about...

Arma 3's campaign is one of the best ones made.

 

Agreed. I preferred the premise of Harvest Red and Op. Arrowhead. But in the end I much prefer the gameplay and design of Arma 3's. They play much better and have way better voice acting. HR had so many bugs I could never finish it. 

 

Apex's menu system and cutscenes is a welcome bit of fresh air from the bog standard.

 

(Speaking of voice acting. Never forget the British voiced USMC captain)

[Gunter Severloh 4064]

I only really played OFP's Cold War Crisis,Resistance, & Red hammer campaigns, and then its remake in Arma2OA with CWR mod ;)  i played them a few times even all the OFP missions,

sad to say after that i ended up spending my time on my WarMods and playing missions like Evolution, insurgency, Domination, and other stuff Bis didn't make but those campaigns

even when i see them on utube brings fond memories of those days...god im getting goose bumps just thinking about it! :D

[BL4DE 91]

Can't deny that Arma 2 was broken overall when it came out for nearly a year. Also hated how the campaign changed to warfare mode by the end. And had some terribly buggy missions. Some of them were pure random luck. Find a war criminal in 250 square KM map(realistic but tedious too). Finding Guba was more fun :D

 

I too enjoyed Arma 3 campaign. It had some inspirations from Cold War Crisis and Resistance. But really East Wind is the only campaign in Arma3. Apex protocol, bootcamp etc are just showcases, very little gameplay content. Just wish we had more official singleplayer content

[pooroldspike 129]

People (including me) have made many suggestions for improvements to Arma 3 in assorted threads over the years which BI never seem to follow up, so maybe people lose interest if they feel they're being ignored?

[Rydygier 1317]

Yes, that's the point. Even, if I agree, that the game belongs to the creators of it, which also means, it's perfectly fine, if creators primarily follow own priorities and visions, paying attention to the feedback only as much, as they see fit, disproportion between amount of requests, wishes, problem reports and reactions/answers (not mentioning actual game changes) could be highly discouraging and, to be fair, at some point discouraged me from further repeating my own "wishlist". I just accepted, they consequently follow their own way and don't pay attention/don't want to be "distracted" much by some single voices. I respect that, don't get me wrong, it is perfectly reasonable approach, as each player has own vision, what Arma should be and where should go, and trying to follow each such wish would be plain absurd. But as the consequences I saw further bothering them pointless, thus stopped. It explains, why people may stop to say anything to devs - why to say, if there's that feeling, it has no influence on anything, you are not heard, just another single voice in the ocean of voices, or are ignored anyway.

 

Dev branch feedback dev-community dialog is a bit another thing, that should be mentioned too. It's where devs allow community to participate in following dev's own game vision/development priorities.

 

And there are shining exceptions, like some announced lately serious effort put into driving AI after all these years. It was requested (so long and so much) and it's under work. Or they planned this anyway, and it's only coincidental with any requests. 

[pooroldspike 129]

..I saw further bothering them pointless, thus stopped...

 

Me too, so nowadays I just play Arma 3 for fun and don't take it seriously.

Same with other games and game companies, they didn't listen to my suggestions for improvements so I walked.

If they don't want to take our advice and become millionnaires it's no skin off our nose..;)

[thecanadianvending 24]

People (including me) have made many suggestions for improvements to Arma 3 in assorted threads over the years which BI never seem to follow up, so maybe people lose interest if they feel they're being ignored?

They have?

 

3d Editor

FFV

Bipods

Better AI

 

 

4 most suggested things since OFP. All in now. But yeah, BI doesn't listen to suggestions

[Rydygier 1317]

4 most suggested things since OFP. All in now. 

 

 

 

You missed the point. 

 

1. Of course, quoted approach is reasonable;

 

2. But here it's not about "most suggested" or what's reasonable for devs. It's about "suggested by me" (me = a single, particular Arma fan). If my personal wishes/advices/requests/reports are ignored, or at least if it seems so (no any response, no according changes in the game), why bother with repeating them. Simple as that. Better become silent, than keep bother and still be hopelessly outvoted and thus - ignored. Wasting of time and effort. Ergo - many, having not that popular requests/ideas, could become silent because of that, just not those, who supported most voted and thus implemented requests. 

 

Me for example - from listed most requested features we got, I care only about AI, some things about it, from which something is going on only (but still!) with driving AI. That one thing is my vote. Rest - I don't care that much or even at all. 

[thecanadianvending 24]

 

2. But here it's not about "most suggested" or what's reasonable for devs. It's about "suggested by me" (me = a single, particular Arma fan). If my personal wishes/advices/requests/reports are ignored, or at least if it seems so (no any response, no according changes in the game), why bother with repeating them. Simple as that. Better become silent, than keep bother and still be hopelessly outvoted and thus - ignored. Wasting of time and effort. Ergo - many, having not that popular requests/ideas, could become silent because of that, just not those, who supported most voted and thus implemented requests. 

What the hell are you talking about?

[Rydygier 1317]

What the hell are you talking about?

 

 

Seems pretty clear to me, it's simple logic, so if you don't understand, then I'm sorry, I don't know, how to explain it better. Either my English isn't good enough, which is likely, either... well, anyway. 

[.kju 3245]

@ Rydygier

Just ignore that guy ..

[thecanadianvending 24]

Seems pretty clear to me, it's simple logic, so if you don't understand, then I'm sorry, I don't know, how to explain it better. Either my English isn't good enough, which is likely, either... well, anyway. 

No, I mean what do you mean. Your wording is terrible in that post

[ProfTournesol 956]

No, I mean what do you mean. Your wording is terrible in that post

That was perfectly clear to me.

[Rydygier 1317]

@thecanadianvending

 

Perhaps this way may be more clear:

 

You are Arma fan and have some ideas and suggestions, how game could be improved, developed...

So you enter the BI Forums and give your feedback.

But, sadly, your requests aren't amongst those, you mentioned - aren't "most voted".

So, you get nothing in response, nothing changes in game, as you requested (you don't care about "most voted" sadly). 

After several tries you realize, you're hopelessly outvoted and your choice is - continue futile repeating your not so popular requests or stop your feedback and become silent. 

 

What's your choice? IMO silence will be often choice in such situation, and thus - many people don't give any feedback anymore. 

[thecanadianvending 24]

@thecanadianvending

 

Perhaps this way may be more clear:

 

You are Arma fan and have some ideas and suggestions, how game could be improved, developed...

So you enter the BI Forums and give your feedback.

But, sadly, your requests aren't amongst those, you mentioned - aren't "most voted".

So, you get nothing in response, nothing changes in game, as you requested (you don't care about "most voted" sadly). 

After several tries you realize, you're hopelessly outvoted and your choice is - continue futile repeating your not so popular requests or stop your feedback and become silent. 

 

What's your choice? IMO silence will be often choice in such situation, and thus - many people don't give any feedback anymore. 

Alright, sorry I have a hard time reading text on screens

 

But what do you want BI to do? They can't add features from everyone. And now with the DLC's announced (jet DLC, another largely requested upgrade (as long as it's like helo DLC's flightmodel)), you can see that they value input from the community. Maybe your small requests aren't in scope of ARMA 3, or they are not feasible with their current engine. Recently I remember reading how the AI code was terrible, and only now they are able to upgrade it.

 

They also add a lot of small features requested as well, I can't name any off the top of my head but I know they have. But again, your requests may be out of scope..

 

Why can't they tell us when they are out of scope? Well, that's not a good idea for any company. They will be ridiculed for it from people; the railgun tank was supposed to be in the game, they released screenshots and when it wasn't in the game people got upset because they don't understand that it wasn't in scope.

 

Sure, it sucks that ideas don't get supported, but not every idea can be implemented. That is not realisitc