"Assault Copter' The Mi-28 and Mi-24.

[silentghoust 132]

So, I'm building a campaign to showcase the Russia 2035 mod, however I'm finding it very hard to locate any basic info on modern Russia style planning and execution of missions. One major question I have found is exactly how do Russia use their Assault Helicopters? I mean on one hand you have a CAS style aircraft capable of attacking targets, but you also have the responsibility of ferrying troops to and around the battlefield. Would they clear the AO of threats before deploying troops? Would they deploy them before hand then begin a sorta "suppression" effort as they advance? Any sources that I could follow up would be fantastic.

[ineptaphid 6413]

I could be wrong, but I assume it work like a US Apache/Chinook escort. Two Mi-24's-one with troops- one without acting as gunship escort. They troop carrier then also has the benefit of being highly armed unlike a Chinook/Blackhawk etc

 

There is not a huge amount of combat footage from these choppers-although there are a few videos of them operational in Syria online.

[silentghoust 132]

Yea that would be my guess, I realized there  is little to no information available about the current Modern Russia force. Would it be far fetch to say that two fully loaded hinds would have one land and deploy why the other acts as security. Then they trade out?

[ineptaphid 6413]

Yea that would be my guess, I realized there  is little to no information available about the current Modern Russia force. Would it be far fetch to say that two fully loaded hinds would have one land and deploy why the other acts as security. Then they trade out?

That makes sense to me-I see no problem with that. Looking forward to your mission-there are almost no Hind missions at the moment. If you want someone for testing-I'd love to do it.

[lexx 1364]

Based on this thread, I've googled some syria / russian helicopter videos, and I've noticed one thing that happens all the time: They constantly keep shooting 2 flares with a short delay in between. Now I'll know how the flares work and what they are obviously there for, but I've never expected them to get deployed constantly. Is this how they really work? Basically, the pilot flips a switch and they keep coming every few seconds? And shouldn't this be a thing in Arma too, instead of lots of flares in a very short time?

[silentghoust 132]

Based on this thread, I've googled some syria / russian helicopter videos, and I've noticed one thing that happens all the time: They constantly keep shooting 2 flares with a short delay in between. Now I'll know how the flares work and what they are obviously there for, but I've never expected them to get deployed constantly. Is this how they really work? Basically, the pilot flips a switch and they keep coming every few seconds? And shouldn't this be a thing in Arma too, instead of lots of flares in a very short time?

Flaring out when enter and exiting a potential MANPAD zone is pretty common in the U.S as well.  You can find plenty of A-10 gun run footage of them doing this from Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe the difference really is for game play reasons, since flares don't really screw up heat signature they simply have a chance of causing the missile to lose target by a % of a chance. 

[Jeritank 0]

From what I have experienced in trying to shoot down enemy choppers is that in Arma 3 flares are used sensibly, like every now and again as the chopper circles a target it has dropped troops off to attack..

 

To defeat this another guy would fire an AA rocket first causing the chopper to fire flares, then I would fire to shoot him down before he can shoot more flares.

 

This is first time on BI forum so can't start new topic. With a chopper I am flying I would like to angle downwards while hovering or moving slowly when firing at ground targets like apc vehicles. However, when I press W the chopper wants to fly off faster. Is there a combo key press to stop the chopper accelerating? If I fly straight at a ground target my chopper goes faster and faster leaving me little time to hit the target.

 

Thanks

 

Jeritank

[dragon01 902]

As far as Hinds go, I've noticed that in almost all places that show it, the troops being carried were recon squads. I don't know what's the exact doctrine, but as Hind is primarily an attack helo, I'd expect the recon infantry to locate and paint targets for the Hind to attack. It doesn't really have the capacity to serve as a proper troop transport. Mi-28 only carries three passengers, so it's pretty much restricted to a single recon element.

 

Regarding attack runs, though luck. :) Helos don't generally attack from hover, except with a gun turret or ATGMs in some cases. They usually make a pass over the target, strafing it much like an airplane does. The acceleration actually helps you to avoid getting hit and shot down. Don't believe the movies, helicopter attack consists of multiple, high-speed runs, especially if you're using rocket pods. APCs in particular necessitate this, since they're usually armed with something capable of messing your helo up big time. That the APC's cannon isn't technically an AA weapon doesn't stop them from using it against you (especially if fighting against AI). The only times you want to hover is when mowing down infantry that has neither heavy weapons or missiles to hit back with, or you're lobbing ATGMs from behind a hill. And even then, in the former case, slowly circling sideways does a better job.

 

As for the flares, periodic deployment is the usual way of defeating MANPADS. An IR or UV-based MAWS is a pretty advanced piece of tech. To my knowledge, neither the A-10 nor Mi-24 come equipped with it, so they need to deploy flares periodically and hope for the best. In ArmA, you get a warning regardless of what kind of missile you've got on your tail, but IRL, you usually only know about radar or laser guided missiles, which use active systems to illuminate you. Passive systems (which most MANPADS use) and CLOS missiles (some older SAMs) require a MAWS which can detect the missile itself, which can be done but is a rather complex problem.

[silentghoust 132]

Which leads me to the question, what is a typical modern Russian Recon squad? I know that it's pretty common in military for attack choppers to work in two's. Although for cases like Ukraine were they had a very limited number of Hinds it was typically one. How common is it for transports to go solo beyond special operations?

Also, going back to just copying a gunship escort situation. In western terms exactly how is this go about? Obviously when deploying troops by helicopter you want to have some surprise in all of it, so how far would a gunship go out on patrol for the landing?

[ineptaphid 6413]

 

 

This is first time on BI forum so can't start new topic. With a chopper I am flying I would like to angle downwards while hovering or moving slowly when firing at ground targets like apc vehicles. However, when I press W the chopper wants to fly off faster. Is there a combo key press to stop the chopper accelerating? If I fly straight at a ground target my chopper goes faster and faster leaving me little time to hit the target.

 

Thanks

 

Jeritank

Regarding angling down while hoverings not really possible. Helicopters move forward by angling the nose downwards. My advice is to start your runs from further away-at least 1km. And just have the nose pointed slightly down-this will give you plenty of time to fire cannon or rockets at targets before your speed becomes too fast. Proper doctrine would advise never flying over the target-start your run then bank sharply away to avoid flying over the target and exposing yourself to ground fire up into your belly. Same goes when providing CAS in jets.

 

And for guided munitions you can stay still-as the post above said.Stay at least 1 or 2km's away from the target and bob up from behind hills.

 

Most people fail to grasp-a chopper should use the same tactics as infantry.Stay moving, use cover etc. As an infantry soldier, you would never charge into the mi=ddle of an enemy group, so dont do it in a chopper either.

 

Going higher gives the illusion of safety-in reality being higher just means you can be seen and shot from more targets and from further away-Use the terrain! :D

[angel24marin 34]

I think that Mi 28 only carry people in extreme occasion like evacuations.

http://i.imgur.com/WMosA.jpg

About the Mi 24, AFAIK, it acted in pairs and most of the time only one carried troops (because when load his mobility get very restricted).

[ineptaphid 6413]

I think that Mi 28 only carry people in extreme occasion like evacuations.

http://i.imgur.com/WMosA.jpg

About the Mi 24, AFAIK, it acted in pairs and most of the time only one carried troops (because when load his mobility get very restricted).

Yeah-that fits with what we were saying above. I imagine you are right. It will be the basic one transport one escort scenario, but both choppers will have more defensive capabilities than say an apache/chinook combo. I imagine as well that the one carrying troops would have to carry a lighter load of ammo and weapons.

[dragon01 902]

That depends on the runway availability, actually. :) A Mi-24 at MTOW needs a (short) runway to take off. They can take off vertically with full weapons load, so I assume that the way to weigh a Hind down that much is to load it up with fully equipped troops on top of that. 

Regarding angling down while hoverings not really possible. Helicopters move forward by angling the nose downwards. My advice is to start your runs from further away-at least 1km. And just have the nose pointed slightly down-this will give you plenty of time to fire cannon or rockets at targets before your speed becomes too fast. Proper doctrine would advise never flying over the target-start your run then bank sharply away to avoid flying over the target and exposing yourself to ground fire up into your belly. Same goes when providing CAS in jets.

Pretty much. Though if you have to overfly, you do it fast. Altitude doesn't protect you, but speed does. Turning too hard may overload your rotors (if you're using AFM) or be just flat out impossible, not to mention ArmA only has CCIP (since recently), which doesn't support toss-bombing. So especially when you're using bombs, you do overfly the target, but come in fast, low and never twice from the same angle. Indeed, you shouldn't ever need come in twice - "one pass and haul ass" is the usual doctrine IRL (and in ArmA, one bomb is all it usually takes anyway). Even when bombing, it's good to break away a bit if you've got space for it, unless you're in something like Superbug or the Raptor, which are just that friggin' fast.

 

It's also worth noting that while really fast jets can do a pass faster than even a Shilka's turret can traverse, planes we have in vanilla A3 generally shouldn't attempt such feats, nevermind helos. Especially with Mi-24, the best way to do bombing is to speed up in a safe area, then do a quick, low pass over what you're trying to bomb. If your vector is good, your reflexes quick and your luck decent enough so they don't shoot your rotors off, it works well enough. Oh, and don't fly so low that you get caught in your own bomb's blast radius (a mistake I once made in another sim, in an F-16, no less...). :)

[katdogfizzow 13]

Really? Internet should be full of stories.

Just think of it as a flying tank. Flying LOW over battlefield on liveleak.

I'd imagine it'd be perfect for a down pilot scenario. Send in 4 of these vs an incoming mechanized infantry, light em up, land , get your injured pilots. cant do that with apaches.

Fire for effect. Send in 4 to the the front line, unload everything in arsenal, drop 30 soldiers for clean up + get Intel

And of course awesome for terrorizing insurgent "civilians" , anyone on the run or lightly armed with just assault rifles

https://www.amazon.com/Gunship-Ace-Neall-Helicopter-Mercenary/dp/1612000703/ref=sm_n_au_dka_US_pr_tex_0_0?imprToken=XsQH3mCIzsUj3XoIcJa82w&slotNum=0&linkCode=w41&tag=patsmilhisblo-20&linkId=f19f5f03fe76f6ddcaa3b9eca10c81a5

[Corvinus 35]

Regarding helos - angel24marin is right, it's either troops transport or attacking runs, Mi-24 can't do both at the same time.

Regarding recon squads - if we are talking about squads of a regular brigade's recon battalion, than I don't think it's much different in structure to a regular motorized squad. Here's an approximate structure:

 

- Squad's commander - AK-74M / sergeant

- Senior scout (i.e. assistant squad commander and a fireteam leader) - VSS / yefreitor

- Scout - AK-74M / private

- Scout - AK-74M / private

- Scout Sapper - AK-74M plus mine detector / private

- Scout Machine-gunner - PKP / private

- Scout Sniper - SVD-S / private

- Driver - GAZ "Tigr" / private

 

In addition to their personal weapons these guys also carry bunch of radios (R-168 family), one portable laser rangefinder (LPR-2) and one portable thermal imager (TPN-1) plus they can be augmented by personnel and equipment from the other specialized units of the battalion, for example a portable ground radar (like PSNR-8M) and its crew from a technical reconnaissance company.

[silentghoust 132]

Regarding helos - angel24marin is right, it's either troops transport or attacking runs, Mi-24 can't do both at the same time.

Regarding recon squads - if we are talking about squads of a regular brigade's recon battalion, than I don't think it's much different in structure to a regular motorized squad. Here's an approximate structure:

 

- Squad's commander - AK-74M / sergeant

- Senior scout (i.e. assistant squad commander and a fireteam leader) - VSS / yefreitor

- Scout - AK-74M / private

- Scout - AK-74M / private

- Scout Sapper - AK-74M plus mine detector / private

- Scout Machine-gunner - PKP / private

- Scout Sniper - SVD-S / private

- Driver - GAZ "Tigr" / private

 

In addition to their personal weapons these guys also carry bunch of radios (R-168 family), one portable laser rangefinder (LPR-2) and one portable thermal imager (TPN-1) plus they can be augmented by personnel and equipment from the other specialized units of the battalion, for example a portable ground radar (like PSNR-8M) and its crew from a technical reconnaissance company.

That is actually very useful information. So in this instance, would it be safe to say that One Hind would be specifically security, and the other as transport during a operation? Or would it be more common for a Recon to have just one Hind deploy? Also, I have lots of general questions about Russia current military structure. Mainly because their just seems to be very little information about the modern Russian forces, vs the old soviet style organization. May I PM you with a list of questions in the future? I don't want to de-rail this thread so I'll keep my helicopter discussion focused here.

[Corvinus 35]

So in this instance, would it be safe to say that One Hind would be specifically security, and the other as transport during a operation? Or would it be more common for a Recon to have just one Hind deploy?

 

I'm not an expert to any extent, but I believe two Hinds would be more plausible. In Afghanistan standard spetsnaz practice was two Mi-8 with troops (and their crews would often demount rocket pods from them in order to save some weight) and two Mi-24 acting like fire support.

 

May I PM you with a list of questions in the future?

Sure.

[veles-zv 176]

I could be wrong, but I assume it work like a US Apache/Chinook escort. Two Mi-24's-one with troops- one without acting as gunship escort. They troop carrier then also has the benefit of being highly armed unlike a Chinook/Blackhawk etc

 

There is not a huge amount of combat footage from these choppers-although there are a few videos of them operational in Syria online.

no surprising to most people the Mi-24 does not really carry troops in the back, in combat the pilots dislike carrying soldiers as it increased workload and were loaded with extra Ammo and fuel instead however the intent of the Mi-24 was a flying BMP in its role, the majority of the time the troops in the back are recon troops or other special forces of the VDV, wounded troops if need be. what was practiced in the afgan war was to have a Flight engineer in the back which could shoot at enemies with a machine gun from the two doorramps and spot/alert the pilot/gunner to contacts and other points of interest. also he would help reload the helicopter with ammo when they had to reload and refuel in the field, after the afgan war this practice was rather uncommon.  The mi 24s would be escorting Mi-8s and even ground convoys. Mi 24 always work in a pair  if you see only one the other is somewhere off in the distance looking for anyone who is foolish to shoot at the lead helicopter

[veles-zv 176]

So, I'm building a campaign to showcase the Russia 2035 mod, however I'm finding it very hard to locate any basic info on modern Russia style planning and execution of missions. One major question I have found is exactly how do Russia use their Assault Helicopters? I mean on one hand you have a CAS style aircraft capable of attacking targets, but you also have the responsibility of ferrying troops to and around the battlefield. Would they clear the AO of threats before deploying troops? Would they deploy them before hand then begin a sorta "suppression" effort as they advance? Any sources that I could follow up would be fantastic.

The mi 24 is a flying BMP in its origin, its has many roles recon, attack, escorting  and even transporting troops however with transporting troops this practice is fairly uncommon to see in the field and if so done was many executed with recon detachment of the VDV, special forces members of the VDV, and as a medical evac helicopter if the need arises, which pretty much means that if no other helicopter can fulfill that role in that time. most of the time the Mi-24 would carry extra ammo and or fuel in the troop compartment with an extra crew member in the back.

 

the Mi24 would always fly in pairs, many different types of tactics and  maneuvers would be made created from combat experience with the helicopter, the first is having the trailing helicopter overwatch the leading helicopter his role was to watch for anyone who was foolish enough to shoot at the leading helicopter or to eliminate anyone who would run out thinking it was safe as the rear of the lead helicopter flew overhead.  2) tactic which was used was to fly in a close formation having one helicopter dump flares periodically to protect the leading helicopter from manpads doing this the trailing helicopter can also watch for enemy contacts as well, 3) tactic was to fly in a Circe in an area,   the helicopters would fly in a wide bank 180 degrees apart from each other looking for any infantry which would present itself, this is a recon tactic as well as you can have the both gunners searching for contacts down below and is a rather safe technique to employ on the battlefield as both helicopters are cover each other.  

low altitude flying is typically used. of course there are many types of tactics which can be employed by the Mi24 but these are the most common and those of which i have seen

 

The mi24 weapons are vast, all depending on model

 unguided rockets of 57mm, 80mm and even 130mm types flare, He, Fragmentation, smoke, Darts, fae warheads and heat/tandom

 

 main gun is the YAK B 12.7 high rate of fire minigun with 1170 rounds, 23mm 450 round twin barrel cannon or the fixed mount 30mm twin barrel cannon yakb are being replaced with the 23mm instead

 

Bombs can carry a number of bombs. from dumb bombs, cluster, FAE, illumination, fire bombs however no guided bombs

 

Bomblet/mine dispenser pods

 

underwing gunpods. 30mm AGS 17, 1 yakb and 2 7.62 miniguns, 23mm twin barrel fixed and up and down flexible which can be placed rearwards 

 

Fuel tanks 800 litters on wings and a internal fuel tank in the troop compartment 

 

ATGM 4 falanga missiles, 4 shturm missiles, 8 or 16 ataka missiles and according to some sources 4 malyutka

 

AA - R60 missiles however very rare and fitted on more capable aircraft instead, 4 x strela/ igla short range infred missiles mi 35 can fit 4 igla on one polyon 

 

Mi 24 has very good armor the crew compartment is rated for 23mm, troop compartment is only rated for 7.62 or in some places 12.7mm with additional armor. rotor blades are rated for 23mm. and the wind screen are rated for 12.7mm the flat area just in front, the canopy (round area) is only rated for fragmentation of 23mm rounds or equivalent meaning that it wont stop rifle fire.  

 

now lets talk about what arma has to offer... the cup mod is complete useless at this time... windscreen cannot stop pistol rounds from 100 meters... the ATGM can not even kill infantry riding on a t55 they are pretty much just fire works... rockets are low damaging, the AI will only use the YAK B and rockets if lucky. which is not really cups fault arma 2 Hinds are gimped... well i dont know with cup they seem to not like the soviet weapons as the t72 and t55 still does not have ammo for the main gun and it has been 3 updates since i have noticed it.  so i would say the best mod to use is from the RHS Mod

[silentghoust 132]

now lets talk about what arma has to offer... the cup mod is complete useless at this time... windscreen cannot stop pistol rounds from 100 meters... the ATGM can not even kill infantry riding on a t55 they are pretty much just fire works... rockets are low damaging, the AI will only use the YAK B and rockets if lucky. which is not really cups fault arma 2 Hinds are gimped... well i dont know with cup they seem to not like the soviet weapons as the t72 and t55 still does not have ammo for the main gun and it has been 3 updates since i have noticed it.  so i would say the best mod to use is from the RHS Mod

Yea, and most of that is just status tweaking, which obviously is just something that will get done in CUP's team long big list of stuff to do. For the Russian 2035 mod, we will be porting the SuperHind in, after I graphically update it. Why not exactly a Russian project, the team feels it's a great future hind that will allow us to give our faction a bit of distance from CSAT. Which currently uses a lot of Russian equipment. I noticed that a lot of western use of Russian forces either just copies Western force organization, or simply uses the old Soviet models. By using both the future concepts and the current force organization of Russia. I hope that the end product would be a unique faction, that has it's own place in the 2035 Arma universe. 

[ThrashInc 31]

The reason the Mi-8's would unload rocket pods is because Afghanistan is a combination of hot - cold and high altitude.  Payload capabilities change greatly depending on the season and if you're in MeS, Helmand, Khowst, Nangahar, etc.  This obviously also effects whether or not an Mi-24 could lift, or need translational lift, with a full or modified payload - not also considering travel time or time on station requirements (fuel) which could further reduce the load of troops or weaponry.

[ineptaphid 6413]

The reason the Mi-8's would unload rocket pods is because Afghanistan is a combination of hot - cold and high altitude.  Payload capabilities change greatly depending on the season and if you're in MeS, Helmand, Khowst, Nangahar, etc.  This obviously also effects whether or not an Mi-24 could lift, or need translational lift, with a full or modified payload - not also considering travel time or time on station requirements (fuel) which could further reduce the load of troops or weaponry.

Exactly-same reason US Apaches started to fly without their longbow radars attached. UK apaches have stronger engines so they tended to keep theirs on.

[rmroman 2]

I could be wrong, but I assume it work like a US Apache/Chinook escort. Two Mi-24's-one with troops- one without acting as gunship escort. They troop carrier then also has the benefit of being highly armed unlike a Chinook/Blackhawk etc

 

There is not a huge amount of combat footage from these choppers-although there are a few videos of them operational in Syria online.

 

Though Mi-24 (current export designation Mi-35) has an 8 person troop compartment it is not used as a transport in real combat situations. Troop compartment was designed in as a theoretical exercise with Russian forces having no prior combat experience in gunships. In reality Mi-24 is used as a "pure" gunship and Mi-8/Mi-17 as a medium transport helo. Mi-24 turned to be underpowered for hot and/or high altitude missions plus it's too valuable as a CAS/escort asset to risk a landing. Mi-24 transport compartment was used in three situations:

1. Base to base relocation/transport.

2. Immediate rescue whereas a buddy helo would extract a downed crew.

3. A stock of arms plus a technician to reload at a quick "pit-stop" near AO.

[rmroman 2]

Based on this thread, I've googled some syria / russian helicopter videos, and I've noticed one thing that happens all the time: They constantly keep shooting 2 flares with a short delay in between. Now I'll know how the flares work and what they are obviously there for, but I've never expected them to get deployed constantly. Is this how they really work? Basically, the pilot flips a switch and they keep coming every few seconds? And shouldn't this be a thing in Arma too, instead of lots of flares in a very short time?

 

Lots of flares within a short time is a pure air show stunt. Both Russian and American gunships usually shoot two flares every few seconds when in danger.

[rmroman 2]

As far as Hinds go, I've noticed that in almost all places that show it, the troops being carried were recon squads. I don't know what's the exact doctrine, but as Hind is primarily an attack helo, I'd expect the recon infantry to locate and paint targets for the Hind to attack. It doesn't really have the capacity to serve as a proper troop transport. Mi-28 only carries three passengers, so it's pretty much restricted to a single recon element.

 

Regarding attack runs, though luck. :) Helos don't generally attack from hover, except with a gun turret or ATGMs in some cases. They usually make a pass over the target, strafing it much like an airplane does. The acceleration actually helps you to avoid getting hit and shot down. Don't believe the movies, helicopter attack consists of multiple, high-speed runs, especially if you're using rocket pods. APCs in particular necessitate this, since they're usually armed with something capable of messing your helo up big time. That the APC's cannon isn't technically an AA weapon doesn't stop them from using it against you (especially if fighting against AI). The only times you want to hover is when mowing down infantry that has neither heavy weapons or missiles to hit back with, or you're lobbing ATGMs from behind a hill. And even then, in the former case, slowly circling sideways does a better job.

 

As for the flares, periodic deployment is the usual way of defeating MANPADS. An IR or UV-based MAWS is a pretty advanced piece of tech. To my knowledge, neither the A-10 nor Mi-24 come equipped with it, so they need to deploy flares periodically and hope for the best. In ArmA, you get a warning regardless of what kind of missile you've got on your tail, but IRL, you usually only know about radar or laser guided missiles, which use active systems to illuminate you. Passive systems (which most MANPADS use) and CLOS missiles (some older SAMs) require a MAWS which can detect the missile itself, which can be done but is a rather complex problem.

 

I'd correct quick passes vs hovers. Quick passes are for CAS. Gunships were originally designed for an AT warfare so the intention was for ATGMs to be launched to long distance from a hover. It implies a European theater like warfare. Fixed continuous lines of contact, long distance shooting, low MANPAD threat. Besides there's no way to target original SACLOS missiles on the move. And even for modern ATGMs if the helo paints the target all by itself (Hellfire) or guides the missile (Russian Vikhr or Ataka) then it flies a more or less straight path if not hovers.