What Makes a Good Arma Campaign?

[Wiki 1558]

IMHO, the side missions in ArmA 3 were not interesting, because it didn't influence anything at all.

 

Even the main mission like Bingo Fuel (either deliver the fuel or kill the AAF commander - or even do both ----> same result)

 

I think side missions must have a consequence on the main mission, to have a real interest.

 

For example, in the main mission, you have an objective to take. But there is AA somewhere hence you can't have air support.

Side mission: find and destroy the AA

Main mission: the air support becomes available.

[lexx 1412]

Yes, that's correct. Side missions that don't influence anything are pointless filler.

[IndeedPete 1038]

Yes, that's correct. Side missions that don't influence anything are pointless filler.

 

Unless you're after a particular weapon or ammunition for example. In Survive, there was a sniper rifle with NV scope to be collected on patrol. Unfortunately, it wasn't all that useful in the actual main missions but fun nontheless. In Adapt, 7.62mm magazines were rare in the hubs but could be acquired on patrol. Though I believe they changed that with some update later on. It didn't really affect me anyway since I was always cheating myself an Arsenal so I could pick the Marksmen or now the Apex weapons. I find it a bit weird that East Wind was never updated with these assets. I know, it's so that non-DLC owners can still play it without restrictions, but one can easily script around that and only offer DLC weapons for those who actually own it.

 

In short, yes it's a bit of a grind. But it's optional content that adds some value for some people, so I don't mind it being there. What I dislike about it is that to discover these missions, you need to listen to all this camp chatter or walk across half of the map.

[lexx 1412]

Well, if they give you something (like a certain weapon), then they do have a reason to exist. But let's take that one medical run, for example... What does this one give you except medkits, which you always have anyway? Or taking out the CSAT uav / recon squad- does it change anything? Etc.

Being able to steal a drone from that uav side mission would be awesome (darter backpack), or getting an APC from that one side mission with the damaged Gorgon... So many possibilities.

[IndeedPete 1038]

True, that's where they're falling short. Still, if you're just in for a quick battle, going on patrol is fine. And fortunately, these side ops are not mandatory.

[ahmedslimkw 223]

What sort of missions would people like to see as side mission/side quests. They don't have to be combat missions as such, but what would you guys like to see??

Sry for late reply ( Dozed off)

The side missions honestly I don't know, But if your going to make side quests try to make it influence what happens on the story line. Such as destroying the sniper overall weakens the presence of enemies on the area, finding a civilian that is injured and needs help and you bring him back to the hub, Treat him then he joins you all.

Sorry I ain't that creative with side quest :P and also regarding your apex content, Yeah it's definitely hard as the people who don't have cash wouldn't be able to play and understand what the heck is going on. Although you can try your luck on that :) id love to play an apex continuation campaign after I buy the apex DLC!

[TomMack 28]

Having thought more today about hub mission and side missions... Taking on board the feedback, it sounds like a similar system to GTA Vs heists, where you must go through a set up phase to collect certain assets for the missions, however in our case, make them less mandatory. "Oops you didn't complete the "get the drill" mission, so you can't open the vault and get any money sorta thing.

I have absolutely no idea about how this system could be implemented... Some serious magic in the campaign files with multiple of the same mission minus certain parts.

Edit :: for anyone planning a campaign, I think i great piece of pre production work would be to design a flow chart for your mission flow. This would certainly help with side missions at hubs. Once I'm home I'll begin developing and post the progress in a new thread.

[lexx 1412]

I have absolutely no idea about how this system could be implemented... Some serious magic in the campaign files with multiple of the same mission minus certain parts.

Use of global variables. It's very easy.

[ahmedslimkw 223]

Having thought more today about hub mission and side missions... Taking on board the feedback, it sounds like a similar system to GTA Vs heists, where you must go through a set up phase to collect certain assets for the missions, however in our case, make them less mandatory. "Oops you didn't complete the "get the drill" mission, so you can't open the vault and get any money sorta thing.

I have absolutely no idea about how this system could be implemented... Some serious magic in the campaign files with multiple of the same mission minus certain parts.

Edit :: for anyone planning a campaign, I think i great piece of pre production work would be to design a flow chart for your mission flow. This would certainly help with side missions at hubs. Once I'm home I'll begin developing and post the progress in a new thread.

Same here, Honestly i find that way out of my skills atm (Lexx mentioned global variables, Never heard of it but il check it out asap :)) My campaign sort of has a "Hub" but its kinda free roam like the players can choose to go to their friends house and a mission begins, Thats the only way i found it easy to make those stuffs. Oh and a flow chart seems nice :D Id love to see what progress you made!

[froggyluv 2136]

 Personally I find story dominant missions extremely boring and ho hum. especially if the NPC's are made immortal to protect the storyline and then player is expected to follow the story -rather than the story following the player. The latter is far, far more challenging to create yet 1000x more rewarding. Emergent storyline that changes due to player actions and yes, even things outside of the players control, creates a real, breathing world rather than a cheap B movie level narrative.

[lexx 1412]

Same here, Honestly i find that way out of my skills atm (Lexx mentioned global variables, Never heard of it but il check it out asap :))

Here is a simple example. You are in mission 2 and want to know if a certain vehicle has been destroyed in mission 1.

So in mission 1 you check if the vehicle gets destroyed, then switch a variable.

if !(alive CSAT_ARTILLERY) then 
{ 
    lexx_cvar_m_01_artillery = "destroyed"; 
    saveVar "lexx_cvar_m_01_artillery"; 
};

Later when starting mission 2, you can access the variable status:

if (lexx_cvar_m_01_artillery == "destroyed" ) then 
{ 
    //do stuff in here
};

That's very basic of course, but works and can already help with many tiny things.

[ahmedslimkw 223]

Here is a simple example. You are in mission 2 and want to know if a certain vehicle has been destroyed in mission 1.

So in mission 1 you check if the vehicle gets destroyed, then switch a variable.

if !(alive CSAT_ARTILLERY) then 
{ 
    lexx_cvar_m_01_artillery = "destroyed"; 
    saveVar "lexx_cvar_m_01_artillery"; 
};

Later when starting mission 2, you can access the variable status:

if (lexx_cvar_m_01_artillery == "destroyed" ) then 
{ 
    //do stuff in here
};

That's very basic of course, but works and can already help with many tiny things.

 

Wow! That is really simple! Thanks a bunch!

 

 

 Personally I find story dominant missions extremely boring and ho hum. especially if the NPC's are made immortal to protect the storyline and then player is expected to follow the story -rather than the story following the player. The latter is far, far more challenging to create yet 1000x more rewarding. Emergent storyline that changes due to player actions and yes, even things outside of the players control, creates a real, breathing world rather than a cheap B movie level narrative.

I completely agree with ya froggy! I usually dont like immortal NPC as people can simply do this, Send the NPC on the middle of the battle while the place simply picks them off due to the NPC distracting them (From my experience)

 

I presume by story dominant missions like the missions which slap a gigantic cutscene explaining all the problems at once, Leaving no air for mystery? And the story following the player by the player unfolding the plot due to the choices made by the player? (Sorry XD)

 

If thats so then i totally agree with ya mate!

[froggyluv 2136]

 Cool I thought I was alone :D

 

 Yeah that giant cutcscene explaining world politics is definitely part of what im talking about. Telling me to go to A, kill 20 guys, cutscene, go to B kill 20 guys, cutscene etc with no room for improvisation or surprise is another. Basically what im saying is the author anticipating and preparing for the player to branch off and not have it be dead space. To allow for NPC's to die,bases to be invaded if not properly protected, for possible future objectives to be negated because they were destroyed earlier than planned -that sort of thing. And then adding a variety of small cutscenes, or objective completed screens hell even a narrators voice to this emergent behaviour.

 

 It sounds daunting but is very doable.

[ineptaphid 6413]

I agree with the other posts.I only play SP-but I will not command more than 5 ai.Any more and it is annoying.But a four man team is perfect in my opinion.I find commanding ai pretty easy ad they have improved a lot recently.It does mean you cant really do any urban/cqb style stuff because the ai will often be killed instantly. But for any search and destroy/SERE/ recovery of personnel, recon-ai is fine.And if the ai are left as "playable" the it can be played coop too. 

[ahmedslimkw 223]

Cool I thought I was alone :D

 

 Yeah that giant cutcscene explaining world politics is definitely part of what im talking about. Telling me to go to A, kill 20 guys, cutscene, go to B kill 20 guys, cutscene etc with no room for improvisation or surprise is another. Basically what im saying is the author anticipating and preparing for the player to branch off and not have it be dead space. To allow for NPC's to die,bases to be invaded if not properly protected, for possible future objectives to be negated because they were destroyed earlier than planned -that sort of thing. And then adding a variety of small cutscenes, or objective completed screens hell even a narrators voice to this emergent behaviour.

 

 It sounds daunting but is very doable.

That makes sense now :D Thanks! I think the problem ATM with my npc is that they die literally with 1 shot on the torso with pistols... So I fixed it by overall increasing the health to make it 2-3 shots so most people won't have to deal with the constant dumb AI walking around in the middle of a gun fight. I found the east wind intro entirely confusing with the sudden stops in the AAN world news intro... Maybe it was done to leave a little bit of mystery for the player?

And regarding the kill 20 guys then cutscene I absolutely agree with ya. Make a little surprise here and there... The once empty bases suddenly gets bombarded by mortars and re enforcements arrive. Not telling the player "Alright set up the defenses you will receive mortar bombardment, And re enforcements are coming" to add a little element of surprise :)

[IndeedPete 1038]

 [...]

 

 

Made it less error-prone:

if !(alive CSAT_ARTILLERY) then { 
    lexx_cvar_m_01_artillery_alive = false; 
    saveVar "lexx_cvar_m_01_artillery"; 
};

[...]

if (!(isNil "lexx_cvar_m_01_artillery_alive") && {lexx_cvar_m_01_artillery_alive}) then { 
    // Do stuff in here.
};

And a simple skipping mechanic I stole from some East Wind files:

// Add EH
disableSerialization;
IP_Cutscene_Skip = false;

_ehSkip = ([] call BIS_fnc_displayMission) displayAddEventHandler [
	"KeyDown",
	"
		if (_this select 1 == 57) then
		{
			if (IP_Cutscene_Skip) exitWith {};

			playSound ['click', true];

			IP_Cutscene_Skip = true;
		};

		if !((_this select 1) in (actionKeys 'PersonView' + [1])) then {true};
	"
];

uiNamespace setVariable ["IP_Cutscene_ehSkip", _ehSkip];

// Some cutscene or camera stuff in a different script.
[...]
if (IP_Cutscene_Skip) exitWith {};
[...]

// Or just in a different scope within the same script.
[...]
if (true) then {
	scopeName "cutscene";
	[...]
	if (!(isNil "IP_Cutscene_Skip") && {IP_Cutscene_Skip}) then {breakOut "cutscene"};
	[...]
};
[...]

// Remove skipping mechanic.
([] call BIS_fnc_displayMission) displayRemoveEventHandler ['KeyDown', (uiNamespace getVariable "IP_Cutscene_ehSkip")];
uiNamespace setVariable ["IP_Cutscene_ehSkip", nil];
IP_Cutscene_Skip = nil;

[lexx 1412]

Well yeah, ofc you need to (or should) check if the variable exists in the first place. It's just a simple example.

One thing always to remember, though: Replaying the mission will then overwrite the variable. So if you like to replay already finished mission, you *could* possibly break stuff in the future missions, because the variable values changed.

[IndeedPete 1038]

Well yeah, ofc you need to (or should) check if the variable exists in the first place. It's just a simple example.

One thing always to remember, though: Replaying the mission will then overwrite the variable. So if you like to replay already finished mission, you *could* possibly break stuff in the future missions, because the variable values changed.

 

I saw someone claiming that in another thread recently. Though I'm not entirely sure. Reverting does replace saved values, yes. But replaying? I think I never came across such behaviour. Maybe it was introduced quite recently and/or is actually a bug. I certainly feel it shouldn't overwrite values when replaying missions.

[Wiki 1558]

The other solution is making 2 different end variable.

For example:

In mission 1, you have a side quest in which you can find some valuable information.

If you find them, your mission ends with end1.

If you don't find them, your mission ends with end2.

Then in the description.ext of your campaign, if it's end1---> mission2a

If it's end2--->mission2b

Dunno if I'm clear enough

[TomMack 28]

Made it less error-prone...

I do hope you guys are paying attention to the many threads I'll be creating about how to get my specific variables working.. I'll be doing a lot of reading in the coming months.

What's your opinion on limiting the players camera to 1st person throughout certain "story focussed" missions? Is this something that never should be done or can exceptions be made.. being an advocate for a cinematic narrative ( I have a video editing and media studies background) limiting the players view for the sake of a narrative is justified.

That makes sense now :D Thanks! I think the problem ATM with my npc is that they die literally with 1 shot on the torso with pistols... So I fixed it by overall increasing the health to make it 2-3 shots so most people won't have to deal with the constant dumb AI walking around in the middle of a gun fight. I found the east wind intro entirely confusing with the sudden stops in the AAN world news intro... Maybe it was done to leave a little bit of mystery for the player?

As I said, being an advocate for narrative and heavily accurate lore, I want the player to know what's happening which is why I felt so frustrated by the campaign intro and the story in general.. so much so to the point I wrote and collaborated my thoughts in a steam guide where we probed the plot between episode releases (search "Arma 3 story guide" and it's a top result). I understand the want for some secrecy and I want to facilitate that, is it acceptable to have secrets revealed through playing different characters. For example, A certain faction randomly starts firing at you and you don't know why... But in another mission a different character reveals that they set it up.. or would you rather not know at all and leave it to interpretation (I have to say, personally, that would tilt my tits off)

Edit :: the guide from steam a random arma 3 playing steam friend and I wrote... I haven't touched it since ADAPT - an awful guide but it was how I gained my understanding for the back story, not necessarily the story through the campaign

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=201583053

[TomMack 28]

The other solution is making 2 different end variable.

For example:

In mission 1, you have a side quest in which you can find some valuable information.

If you find them, your mission ends with end1.

If you don't find them, your mission ends with end2.

Then in the description.ext of your campaign, if it's end1---> mission2a

If it's end2--->mission2b

Dunno if I'm clear enough

This was my original plan, but I could see that over complication would be imminent knowing my mission making habits. And also would only allow for 1 side mission with a succeed or fail ending to lead into another mission otherwise your making upwards of 9 variations of missions

[Kydoimos 916]

 

I do hope you guys are paying attention to the many threads I'll be creating about how to get my specific variables working.. I'll be doing a lot of reading in the coming months.

 

Lol, yup, we'll be looking out for those :P Just seen you're very new to the forums, Tom - so, big welcome!

[ahmedslimkw 223]

I do hope you guys are paying attention to the many threads I'll be creating about how to get my specific variables working.. I'll be doing a lot of reading in the coming months.

What's your opinion on limiting the players camera to 1st person throughout certain "story focussed" missions? Is this something that never should be done or can exceptions be made.. being an advocate for a cinematic narrative ( I have a video editing and media studies background) limiting the players view for the sake of a narrative is justified.

As I said, being an advocate for narrative and heavily accurate lore, I want the player to know what's happening which is why I felt so frustrated by the campaign intro and the story in general.. so much so to the point I wrote and collaborated my thoughts in a steam guide where we probed the plot between episode releases (search "Arma 3 story guide" and it's a top result). I understand the want for some secrecy and I want to facilitate that, is it acceptable to have secrets revealed through playing different characters. For example, A certain faction randomly starts firing at you and you don't know why... But in another mission a different character reveals that they set it up.. or would you rather not know at all and leave it to interpretation (I have to say, personally, that would tilt my tits off)

Edit :: the guide from steam a random arma 3 playing steam friend and I wrote... I haven't touched it since ADAPT - an awful guide but it was how I gained my understanding for the back story, not necessarily the story through the campaignhttps://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=201583053

Actually right now, I'm all for the player finding out what happens after a few missions or more, it gives a mystery for the players rather than shoving a full blown cutscene showing the opposing team preparing to assault the player, and or the cutscene explaining completely everything on what's happening on the story line at the beginning.

Take Arma 2 E.W for example, a simple operation completely backfires. Effectively destroying the once planned invasion.

You can make the player know what's happening later (I'm not gonna force ya on that one :)) or you can reveal everything in the beginning. The east wind campaign intro is infuriating for me. Why not unfold the events later rather than making the damn officers never reveal a single thing.

Why not interrogate or at least capture a officer and gain some details instead of completely killing every-single-being on the island?

Well the choice is entirely yours mate :D I don't want to crush your dreams or anything :)

Good day!

EDIT: Took a look at your guide, Sterling job I must say! Well explained!

[IndeedPete 1038]

The other solution is making 2 different end variable.

For example:

In mission 1, you have a side quest in which you can find some valuable information.

If you find them, your mission ends with end1.

If you don't find them, your mission ends with end2.

Then in the description.ext of your campaign, if it's end1---> mission2a

If it's end2--->mission2b

Dunno if I'm clear enough

 

You seem to be talking about a different thing. Lexx and I were discussing about how to make variables persistent throughout a campaign using the campaign namespace. That is generally unrelated to the structure defined in the campaign description.ext.

[IndeedPete 1038]

What's your opinion on limiting the players camera to 1st person throughout certain "story focussed" missions? Is this something that never should be done or can exceptions be made.. being an advocate for a cinematic narrative ( I have a video editing and media studies background) limiting the players view for the sake of a narrative is justified.

 

 

In cutscenes, maybe. Otherwise I'd leave that to the player. That's what the configurable difficulty levels are for. Plus I'm a narcissist and like to see my character from time to time.