Russian helicopter crashes in chechnya

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USMC Sniper @ Oct. 29 2002,18:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The helo was military, but those being transported were not.<span id='postcolor'>

Not trying to be a smart ass, but that makes it a 100% normal military target. During a war you have to realize how you are dressed or what you are being transported in.

And someone did miss my point completely. Even if a rebel, or Sterla got this chopper... nothing special in a war.

EDIT: Even if my grandmother shot that chopper down with her false teeth... still nothing very special during a war. lol

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Goodspeed @ Oct. 30 2002,00:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Actually, I watch CBC more than I watch CNN.  I like my propoganda to be a little more Canadian.  That and I cant understand how they can mouth the Iraq propoganda without bursting out laughing.

Then again, you live in a nation whose major organ for propoganda in the last century was called, interestingly enough, 'Truth'<span id='postcolor'>

You cant imagine HOW MUCH I WANT TO BRING BACK  that time I'm seriously.<span id='postcolor'>

*blinks*

The worst mass murder of the 20th century is a product of that time! Can you really say you would want back a time that involved Joseph Stalin?!?

Now, if you are hankering for the 70's/80's cold war period, I can understand that. The Soviet Union was likely a much nicer place to live than Russia is now, in spite of the oppresive government. At least, if you were part of the Party

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Oct. 30 2002,00:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">At least, if you were part of the Party <span id='postcolor'>

yeah , with a nice little red member card and you had the assemblies and the celebrations with the local soviet on your free time

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Goodspeed, your attitude is infuriating.

Terrorism = violence against civilians

Rebellion = violence against military operating in your area

If the people in Guildford take up arms and start shooting at all those Sandhurst graduates, then this is a rebellion of Guildford against the crown of England and will result in Guildford being bombed to hell

A rebellion always involved military type action, even if it is a partisan war, aimed towards a power controlling a particular area of land.

Terrorism, on the other hand, is the disgusting act of threatening and blowing up civilians to express a differing opinion. This is highly disgusting and should be routed out ASAP.

So what are the Chechens? Both. The Chechens that shoot down choppers and kill soldiers in combat are rebels, fine, but the people that blow up apartment buildings are terrorist scum.

And why you want the Soviet era back is a mystery to me, if you go by numbers the Soviets were worse than the Nazis

[Exodist 1]

SEE THIS !!!

Any coments ?

Edit: Removed explict picture /denoir

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Exodist @ Oct. 29 2002,16:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">SEE THIS !!!

<Snip>

Any coments ?<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, one: you should probably read the forum rules.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">SEE THIS !!!

Any coments ?<span id='postcolor'>

I can't beleive that stuff is on FAS.org, I've seen those disturbing videos countless times on the net, and I can't beleive how human beings can do that to one another.

I'm glad people value life where I live.

Tyler

/Removed quoted link / denoir

[USMC Sniper 0]

FAS.org is a military resource i guess, but still NOBODY should put up such sickening videos anywhere, things liek that beheading nearly make me vomit.

[Exodist 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Oct. 30 2002,01:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">SEE THIS !!!

Any coments ?<span id='postcolor'>

I can't beleive that stuff is on FAS.org, I've seen those disturbing videos countless times on the net, and I can't beleive how human beings can do that to one another.

I'm glad people value life where I live.

Tyler<span id='postcolor'>

""""I can't beleive how human beings can do that to one another""""

It's "fighters for freedom" as say big part there....

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Exodist @ Oct. 30 2002,01:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">SEE THIS !!!

Any coments ?

Edit: Removed link to explict pictures /denoir<span id='postcolor'>

Comment: Posting rights permanently removed. Do not post links to explicit images.

[Frisbee 0]

4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Exodist @ Oct. 30 2002,024)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Oct. 30 2002,01:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">SEE THIS !!!

Any coments ?<span id='postcolor'>

I can't beleive that stuff is on FAS.org, I've seen those disturbing videos countless times on the net, and I can't beleive how human beings can do that to one another.

I'm glad people value life where I live.

Tyler<span id='postcolor'>

""""I can't beleive how human beings can do that to one another""""

It's "fighters for freedom" as say big part there....<span id='postcolor'>

Noone here said they were freedomfighters,noone defended them either.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Exodist @ Oct. 30 2002,01:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">SEE THIS !!!

Any coments ?

Edit: Removed explict picture /denoir<span id='postcolor'>

bye pal. Check the rules

[zverushka 0]

That target was perfectly legitimate, that's war.

*sigh* stupid western european govs, why can't you let us do what the US did in afghanistan, drop many vaccuum bombs that incinerates a 1 mile area.

Its anti-terrorism

[USMC Sniper 0]

Russia gets to use napalm and flame bombs.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (zverushka @ Oct. 30 2002,03:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That target was perfectly legitimate, that's war.

*sigh* stupid western european govs, why can't you let us do what the US did in afghanistan, drop many vaccuum bombs that incinerates a 1 mile area.

Its anti-terrorism<span id='postcolor'>

probably because russia would drop it on a town.

[ralphwiggum 6]

please discuss in mature manners

[Tex -USMC- 0]

How come America is getting slagged on in this topic? A fucking helicopter got shot down! America must be indirectly responsible!

Think of something original

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ Oct. 29 2002,20:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (zverushka @ Oct. 30 2002,03:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That target was perfectly legitimate, that's war.

*sigh* stupid western european govs, why can't you let us do what the US did in afghanistan, drop many vaccuum bombs that incinerates a 1 mile area.

Its anti-terrorism<span id='postcolor'>

probably because russia would drop it on a town. <span id='postcolor'>

I hardly think that's fair. You have alot of good people trying to make due with shitty equipment, troops who have no desire to be in the military nevermind a war zone, and vaporous orders. There have definately been atrocities commited on both sides, but I think it's rather inflammatory of you to say they would do such a thing.

I'm also not saying what is going on there is right or wrong, I don't know enough about the situation to make a sweeping statement like that. I do, however, know that the privates sergeants and junior officers are just trying to follow the orders given to them. I also don't think it's fair to say "they're in a warzone in uniform so they deserve to die" of some poor guy who was most likely conscripted into the military and sent off to the last place on Earth he wants to be.

[akm74 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Terrorism = violence against civilians

Rebellion = violence against military operating in your area

<span id='postcolor'>

Good point. But baraev (man who die in teather 3 days ago) and his mans actualy also attack Russian military target 2, 3, maybe 8 mounths ago.

If we follow your logic we have to call them

Monday = "rebels"

Sunday = "freedom fighters"

Thurthday = "terorists"

and so on.

We just have to find right day of the week or time of the year.

Easy

[Mister Frag 0]

In my book, the moment someone attacks unarmed civilians and threatens to blow up a building they are being held hostage in, they are no longer "freedom fighters" or "rebels" -- they are terrorists, and will continue to be terrorists even if they should ever get a chance to concentrate exclusively on military targets afterwards.

[Goodspeed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ Oct. 30 2002,01:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Goodspeed, your attitude is infuriating.

Terrorism = violence against civilians

Rebellion = violence against military operating in your area

If the people in Guildford take up arms and start shooting at all those Sandhurst graduates, then this is a rebellion of Guildford against the crown of England and will result in Guildford being bombed to hell

A rebellion always involved military type action, even if it is a partisan war, aimed towards a power controlling a particular area of land.

Terrorism, on the other hand, is the disgusting act of threatening and blowing up civilians to express a differing opinion. This is highly disgusting and should be routed out ASAP.

So what are the Chechens? Both. The Chechens that shoot down choppers and kill soldiers in combat are rebels, fine, but the people that blow up apartment buildings are terrorist scum.

And why you want the Soviet era back is a mystery to me, if you go by numbers the Soviets were worse than the Nazis <span id='postcolor'>

Sometimes truth can be unpleasantly. (thats what about infuriating).

What about terrorism and rebellion. Do you really think that they fight for freedom? Why they're stilling people and demand rensom? This is the same rebels what shot at helicopter. Or may be you think that stilling people is military type action?

Next. Soviet era isnt so bad how you can picture it for yourself. Please do not compare it with nazis. You cant know how it is to live in Soviet Union.

ŔĘĚ74 has told all correctly. In the morning he is the rebel, and in the evening terrorist. You're just apply double standards in relation to Russia.

[Incredible 0]

my input...

there's a lot of misconceptions about Chechnya and what's going on there... some are on the part of Russians, some are on the part of everybody else.

1. i don't know if it's right to call Chechens (fighting federal military) terrorists, but one thing is for sure: they are criminals. not only by the laws of Russia, but by the laws of any democratic country. name me a country (at least decently developed, no stupid examples) where it is legal to arm yourself and fight for separation from the government? take an average "free and happy" American (lol). can he take a shotgun and refuse to pay taxes, because his land is now a new country that he formed himself? you bet, he can't. same with the "chechen rebels". wanna be a separate country? make a friggin referendum in your republic, and don't start violence against local Russians.

here's the question for all you "free chechnya" smart people:

why instead of separating from Russia legally (as other USSR republics did) they started a war?

2. CNN and some other "truth is out there" media corporations are working the gas thing that happened lately. suppose, you are in charge of a hostage situation stand off (on the police side ). the terrorists start executing people. what are your options? you can (1) storm the building or (2) wait till all the hostages are dead. what would you choose? now why is CNN saying that Rus. police made the wrong choice? because the operation was successful.

3. my personal opinion on most of the political conflicts is like this: i don't give a f--k!

...not about the conflict, but about the other side of the issue. people who look at two sides miss out a bunch from both of them.

you people want Chechnya to be a separate country? ok, but how does concern me? do i care what you guys want? rhetorical question... trust me, the goverment in my country is of the similar opinion.

you want Russia to stop supporting Saddam? mmm... enjoy your "wanting" time. Russia is doing what's better for it, not for you... sorry guys

i was tolerant to Europe and US for way too long. i actually believed that you guys think a lot of Russia. i believed, that Europe is my neighbor and my friend. i hoped, US will cooperate with Russia to help us solve some of our problems (since they said they could).

not anymore!

i have no friends outside my nation, only buddies.

[Longinius 1]

"here's the question for all you "free chechnya" smart people:

why instead of separating from Russia legally (as other USSR republics did) they started a war?"

Because Russia wouldnt allow them to seperate?

"3. my personal opinion on most of the political conflicts is like this: i don't give a f--k!

...not about the conflict, but about the other side of the issue. people who look at two sides miss out a bunch from both of them."

Yeah, it must be nice to surrender your morals and life to the ruling government body and not take your democratic responsibilities. Fuck it, its not your family getting killed, right?

"Terrorism = violence against civilians

Rebellion = violence against military operating in your area"

No, rebellion is when you attempt to overthrow someone who has taken your land by force. If they are civilian or not is not really important. If they occupy your land, they are your enemy. If Chechnya is occupied by Russia, then the whole of Russia makes itself a target. Right or wrong, that is how it works in the real world.

The reason we see an increase in terrorism directed at nations such as the US and Russia is that there is no other way to fight such a superpower. You can forget open combat, the US will smash ANYONE who takes to the field. That leaves sabotage, covert actions, terrorism. And as clearly proven on this forum many people in the nations responsible for the occupations do not care until the war has been taken to their own front door. Terrorism has been created by greed, ignorance and simply a "we dont give a shit" attitude.

We in the First World made our bed and now we have to lay in it.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2. CNN and some other "truth is out there" media corporations are working the gas thing that happened lately. suppose, you are in charge of a hostage situation stand off (on the police side ). the terrorists start executing people. what are your options? you can (1) storm the building or (2) wait till all the hostages are dead. what would you choose? now why is CNN saying that Rus. police made the wrong choice? because the operation was successful.<span id='postcolor'>

That´s unfortunally not true. An eyewitness that has been held hostage in the theater for 58 hours said, there were no executions. Only people were shot when a man tried to get a gun from one of the terrorists. They tried to shoot that man but accidently hit other persons. Russian media isn´t that objective when it comes to important details like this.

[Goodspeed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Oct. 30 2002,10:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2. CNN and some other "truth is out there" media corporations are working the gas thing that happened lately. suppose, you are in charge of a hostage situation stand off (on the police side ). the terrorists start executing people. what are your options? you can (1) storm the building or (2) wait till all the hostages are dead. what would you choose? now why is CNN saying that Rus. police made the wrong choice? because the operation was successful.<span id='postcolor'>

That´s unfortunally not true. An eyewitness that has been held hostage in the theater for 58 hours said, there were no executions. Only people were shot when a man tried to get a gun from one of the terrorists. They tried to shoot that man but accidently hit other persons. Russian media isn´t that objective when it comes to important details like this.<span id='postcolor'>

Do you understand russian? Have you ever seen russian news?