Proper release of the littlebirds

[Stag 0]

And yet, aircraft are overloaded, and fly.

But definitely not recommended, though. I notice you used the phrase "allowable payload." What is the aircraft capable of in emergancies?

BTW, You can modify the fuel quantity in the editor.

[NavyEEL 0]

its 4 people. god stop arguing you guys are never happy are you? you get the best addon ever for ofp, the most realistic in ALL aspects--especially carrying capacity--and you still whine and moan about it. i bet you guys would tell the CO of the 160th himself that "umm sir those little birds are wrong. they should be like this....[insert complaint here]" just accept them as they are. admit that you dont know everything you thought you did. sure they CAN carry six people... and a boeing 747 CAN carry bombs. but that doesnt mean you have to do it. you want a little bird with 6 seats, different handling, and other stuff? have at it. make your own.

BAS i just want u guys to know that this is the best addon ever and, having some first hand experience with the 160th, i can safely say that your little birds are about as accurate as they can get within the limitations of ofp. keep up the excellent work!!

[Stag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Nov. 01 2002,09:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">its 4 people. god stop arguing you guys are never happy are you?<span id='postcolor'>

I am very happy with the gunships. There's actually room for two in the back, when SOP is not to carry passengers.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Nov. 01 2002,09:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">  you get the best addon ever for ofp, the most realistic in ALL aspects--especially carrying capacity<span id='postcolor'> 

Um, No it's not, it's actualy 6, according to the information which is in BAS's own readme. STANDARD OPERATIONAL PROCEDURE says only carry 4, but that's common sense. Three littlebirds go in to retrieve an 8 man team. One gets shot down. Two can still perform the mission, and still have a chance of extracting everyone safely. There is physically enough space to hold 8 on each aircraft, but is there enough surplus power? 8 places may be extreme, but it is proven with documentary evidence to be able to carry 6. why put an artificial limit on its capabilites? This is discussion, not whining.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Nov. 01 2002,09:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">  i bet you guys would tell the CO of the 160th himself that "umm sir those little birds are wrong. they should be like this....[insert complaint here]"  just accept them as they are.  admit that you dont know everything you thought you did.  sure they CAN carry six people...<span id='postcolor'>

I wouldn't speak to the CO of the 160th SOAR, I would listen. When he'd finished speaking, I wouild ask any remaining questions I had. One thing I'm sure he'd be happy to discuss is what his arecraft are capable of in extreme circumtances, if the information wasn't actually classifed. There is a world of difference between what is done and what can be done with any machine.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Nov. 01 2002,09:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">  and a boeing 747 CAN carry bombs. <span id='postcolor'>

But you can't use it as a bomber, not without some serious modifications. It can also carry ice cream, but that doesn't make it an ice cream van. An ice cream van however, only has two seats, but I bet if you wanted, you could get maybe up to twenty people in it. Check the Guiness Book of Records for the number of people that can be put into a Mini; I think you'll find it's considerably more than 4.

 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Nov. 01 2002,09:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> but that doesnt mean you have to do it.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree. But in this case BAS appears to be putting an artificial limit on is capabilities.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Nov. 01 2002,09:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">  you want a little bird with 6 seats, different handling, and other stuff?  have at it. make your own.<span id='postcolor'>

Could be done, but then the issues start to get very complicated.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Nov. 01 2002,09:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">  i can safely say that your little birds are about as accurate as they can get within the limitations of ofp.<span id='postcolor'>

That's what is being debated. If SOP is going to be set in stone, why the two places in the back of the AH6? As I said, BAS' own readme says six on the planks of the MH6. It may not be desireable operationally, but it is apparently so easily possible as to make it into official specifications.

[Eviscerator 0]

the problem is it would look strange if only 4 people get on, they would be squashed up, i think also as bas doesnt have the ability to edit animations yet we had to do the best we could, the benches were already modified from the real thing to fit the animations, i just dont think another person per bench would work and look good

[Stag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Eviscerator @ Nov. 01 2002,13:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the problem is it would look strange if only 4 people get on, they would be squashed up, i think also as bas doesnt have the ability to edit animations yet we had to do the best we could, the benches were already modified from the real thing to fit the animations, i just dont think another person per bench would work and look good<span id='postcolor'>

Bummer. Will the configs be upgraded when new techniques are developed?

Thanks for the polite response BTW.

[VXR 9]

NavyEEL thnx for your post man

i cant find any big bugs on the addon but still people want something to argue about

[Eviscerator 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wardog @ Nov. 02 2002,13:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Eviscerator @ Nov. 01 2002,13:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the problem is it would look strange if only 4 people get on, they would be squashed up, i think also as bas doesnt have the ability to edit animations yet we had to do the best we could, the benches were already modified from the real thing to fit the animations, i just dont think another person per bench would work and look good<span id='postcolor'>

Bummer. Will the configs be upgraded when new techniques are developed?

Thanks for the polite response BTW.<span id='postcolor'>

it depends, i think after all the troubles so far stt is probably on the verge of screaming and taking a baseball bat to the lb's it just depends on whether its absolutely needed, and whether the team is busy when the new techniques are developed

[TaNK_Em 0]

This addon is fine with 4 spots to sit. The more on the helo the more die when it drops. As in search and rescue missions 2 little birds with full load could secure the area and a evac could come in with 2 men on the racks one a medic maybe and then get the downed pilot and co pilot on the 2 remaining racks then escort the evac out with the 2 others. Maybe this wouldent be best cause there is more targets but it might work dont know if its by the book but I did this mission editing and all went good.

Thanks again BAS,

TaNK_Em

[Stag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Eviscerator @ Nov. 01 2002,17:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wardog @ Nov. 02 2002,13:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Eviscerator @ Nov. 01 2002,13:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the problem is it would look strange if only 4 people get on, they would be squashed up, i think also as bas doesnt have the ability to edit animations yet we had to do the best we could, the benches were already modified from the real thing to fit the animations, i just dont think another person per bench would work and look good<span id='postcolor'>

Bummer. Will the configs be upgraded when new techniques are developed?

Thanks for the polite response BTW.<span id='postcolor'>

it depends, i think after all the troubles so far stt is probably on the verge of screaming and taking a baseball bat to the lb's it just depends on whether its absolutely needed, and whether the team is busy when the new techniques are developed<span id='postcolor'>

Hmm. didn't realise that it it was so controversial. As far as the flight models go, any judgement is purely arbitrary. Who here has actually flown a Littlebird in combat? Apparrently, under some conditions, other littlebird flight models are more nimble. Is this because these models are more accurate, or because their agility has been overmodelled? Personally, I've got no gripes with the way they fly. Hell, if you get the conditions right, you can roll them.

On the passenger issue: I know that BAS is a very competant team, and would not do things the way they did without a reason. I was just curious to know why it was done the way it was. Obviously this doesn't sit well with some people who would quite cheerfully burn me at the stake for herasy

Finally, I wouldn't mind joining the line volunteering to be beta testers for your team. If you want somebody who's head disappears up BAS's collective ass every time they come to a sudden halt, I don't qualify. If you want my honest opinion of your work, I'd be more than happy to give it.

[Sadico 1]

When i put the littlebirds on a mission the game crashes and gives the error message "cannot load mipmap bas_lbs\m\tjpcntcon.paa". I'm using the 1.46 version.

[netops2001 0]

I get that same crash and error not sure what it is ?? same thing happens to me when i use Drakkens little bird but no error just crash

[Sadico 1]

Drakken's littlebird is for resistance only i think so if you are using 1.46 it won't work.

[Chronicles 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When i put the littlebirds on a mission the game crashes and gives the error message "cannot load mipmap bas_lbs\m\tjpcntcon.paa". I'm using the 1.46 version. <span id='postcolor'>

I tried the Littlebirds on the desert island map , and each time i first put it , then click on preview , i had an error about a file not loaded, but by just use the ENTER key, i bypass the error and can continue

for precision, i dont have any other addon in my addon folder

The error i have when i preview (it occurs only for the first time i preview after launching OFP and including one of the BAS addon chopper, after the error never show up)  is this

-Cannot open object data3d\beretta.p3d

Now about gameplay ,i dont understand why some people here said this Littlebird is not easy to handle.

I tried it and found this helico really easy to fly (i have only mouse and keyboard , no joystick)

Is the 1.85 version different of my 1.46 ?

[r71 0]

On my comp if you press forward (W or E) on the keys, and move the mouse up the chopper goes into a nose dive. As long as I dont do both at the same time it will fly fine, which is very bad for me.

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chronicles @ Nov. 02 2002,23:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When i put the littlebirds on a mission the game crashes and gives the error message "cannot load mipmap bas_lbs\m\tjpcntcon.paa". I'm using the 1.46 version. <span id='postcolor'>

I tried the Littlebirds on the desert island map , and each time i first put it , then click on preview , i had an error about a file not loaded, but by just use the ENTER key, i bypass the error and can continue

for precision, i dont have any other addon in my addon folder

The error i have when i preview (it occurs only for the first time i preview after launching OFP and including one of the BAS addon chopper, after the error never show up)  is this

-Cannot open object data3d\beretta.p3d

Now about gameplay ,i dont understand why some people here said this Littlebird is not easy to handle.

I tried it and found this helico really easy to fly (i have only mouse and keyboard , no joystick)

Is the 1.85 version different of my 1.46 ?<span id='postcolor'>

I will say it again...the way the the BAS LB's handle depends on HOW you fly with the mouse and keyboard. For those of us who fly with the mouse and only use the q and z keys, it flys like a truck and is difficult to turn smoothly. If you use the keys for turning then it turns easily. The BAS LB's are the only helicopter addon that I've ever had a problem flying so I'm not going to change the way I fly just for one addon as I've gotten very good at using the mouse for flying.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Nov. 02 2002,06:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">its 4 people. god stop arguing you guys are never happy are you?  you get the best addon ever for ofp, the most realistic in ALL aspects--especially carrying capacity--and you still whine and moan about it.  i bet you guys would tell the CO of the 160th himself that "umm sir those little birds are wrong. they should be like this....[insert complaint here]"  just accept them as they are.  admit that you dont know everything you thought you did.  sure they CAN carry six people... and a boeing 747 CAN carry bombs.  but that doesnt mean you have to do it.  you want a little bird with 6 seats, different handling, and other stuff?  have at it. make your own.

BAS i just want u guys to know that this is the best addon ever and, having some first hand experience with the 160th, i can safely say that your little birds are about as accurate as they can get within the limitations of ofp.  keep up the excellent work!!<span id='postcolor'>

Alright Mr. Special Forces, but my question has not been answered. Why do most of the training videos I've seen and photos of the MH-6 in action show 6 commandos riding on it?

As Wardog very elequently put it, why put artificial limits on the MH-6 Let the mission maker decide. Is that such a crime to ask? Don't even compare it to putting bombs on a 747. The 747 was not designed as a bomber. However if we were talking about the max passenger capacity of a 747 then yeah there would be room for some debate on that most likely.

As for this LB being the best OFP addon ever, well that's subjective. It's a great addon no doubt, but it could be ALOT better.

For me the tops so far is probably the DKM OV-10 broncos.

Also remember one big difference here is that there are TWO other MH-6 Little Birds out right now, so people do have a choice. I'm making these criticisms to hopefully push BAS to make the BEST Little Birds.

Also to answer's Evi's reply about the guys being too sqooshed on the LB's. The guys on the Drakken's and Capt. Moore's LB's don't look too squooshed to me. They can fit (perhaps the bench needs some extending) so I don't think that's a good reason.

But again if BAS doesn't want to, the that's fine. But they should know that many mission maker's will most likely use Drakken's MH-6.

Also if you want to talk about stretching the truth...well there's the "movable miniguns" on the AH-6...not quite realistic right...but they're their anyways to enhance game play. But you don't see anyone complaining too much about that.

Putting 6 men on the MH-6's is NOT the end of the world. If you want 4 men only you could still only put 4 men on it.

All I ask is the freedom of having this choice.

...oh and hopefully improved handling with the mouse if that's possible.

Again, it's just constructive criticism. I'm not saying it sucks or anything. But again I hope that their LB's will be the definitive Little Birds where there is no doubt that they are the best ever made. But right now due to some of the handling issues, and the carrying capacity of the MH-6, that is questionable to some of us.

To the BAS crew. Keep up the good work and again, it's up to you guys if you want to work on these issues. If not then that's cool. I actually would rather see you all spending time on making a good MH-60 Pavehawk....

Oh speaking of the MH-60.... I know it's not out yet, but I notice that on the new screenshots the refueling probe is removed. Please tell me that there will be at least one model with a refueling probe!!!! If not I'm going to go nuts! I mean I know that in Somalia the refueling probes were removed, but otherwise most of the current models have them if I'm not mistaken... plus the Pavehawks just look a hell of a lot meaner looking with the refueling probes. Same with the CH53.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SelectThis 0]

Constructive comments are always welcome.. and we've received alot of very nice comments from people (thanks to all of them), but the constant arguing can be annoying...It's what drove Col Klink from the addon community...luckily I have a thick skin, bascially 'cause I make the things the way I want them, for my use..if people don't like it then *shrug* no skin off my nose.

I'm not saying not to make suggestions on how to improve an addon, just remember that the authors are people too, careful choice of words makes all the difference. We don't want to lose more people with the skills of Col Klink.

Choice? my choice is to leave the cargo at 4. The missing proxies to enable the cargo to be hit will be fixed. I'll look at the handling issues but no promises to change anything.

SelectThis

[Eviscerator 0]

the thing is, i think everyone on ballistic either uses keyboard and mouse or a joystick, so even if we tried to make a new version, how would we know how to make it manouver better if we think all just mouse helo's move like large drunk cows?, if you need more than 4 guys...why not just use another littlebird? or yes, you could use drakkens or capt moores but IMHO they dont look as good..., if we put 6 guys on the planks what about the people that only want four guys on the planks as they think with only 4 guys on a 6 seat helo it looks like they are saving a couple of seats for someone? unfortunately to cater to everyones tastes it would take far too long and far too many versions, and yes there are about 8 versions of the MH-60's half with fuel probes half without and that CH-53 on the site probably cant be used...but i wont go into that here...

[nyles 11]

Hehehe what about making one side have 3 place for 3 soldiers and the other side have 2 only? Yeh, I know, I have my constructive day today

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Eviscerator @ Nov. 04 2002,21:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the thing is, i think everyone on ballistic either uses keyboard and mouse or a joystick, so even if we tried to make a new version, how would we know how to make it manouver better if we think all just mouse helo's move like large drunk cows?, if you need more than 4 guys...why not just use another littlebird? or yes, you could use drakkens or capt moores but IMHO they dont look as good..., if we put 6 guys on the planks what about the people that only want four guys on the planks as they think with only 4 guys on a 6 seat helo it looks like they are saving a couple of seats for someone? unfortunately to cater to everyones tastes it would take far too long and far too many versions, and yes there are about 8 versions of the MH-60's half with fuel probes half without and that CH-53 on the site probably cant be used...but i wont go into that here...<span id='postcolor'>

Fair enough.   Really I think that overall the Little Birds you guys made are good addons.  But I'll stop with my "constructive criticisms" as my purpose is not to whine about in continuously because I know how annoying that can be.   I'm pretty sure I made most of my points fairly well, and I respect the decisions you guys decide on concerning what to implement on the final version of the Little Birds so that's fine.  That's great news about the MH-60's also!  I'm REALLY looking foward to sending those Pavehawks into action with Special Ops teams.  

Keep up the great work guys!

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Tigershark 0]

@navyEEl....thanks for the compliments

@Wardog

The decision was made to carry 4 people based on SOP. This was based on several "consultants" on our team that had served with Rangers.

For the record...I was not pleased with the 2 seats in the back of the AH-6 as this was not realistic. ST and I decided to let the community decide on whether they should stay.

@MilesTeg

For very real pics of Rangers training with 160th Lb's in 4 troop configs please go to Jane's website and search for a demonstration they performed for the military press regarding tactics and readiness. All photos show 4 troop configs and this has been backed up by our consultants at BAS have proved their credentials as ex or currently serving Rangers. None of the advice they gave us broke OPSEC for the record.

Regarding the handling characteristics. I did a lot of testing over the weekend and drew these conclusions.

The BAS helo is actually more nimble than Drakkhens but handles worse. Let me elaborate...ours really does seem to accelerate faster and turn on a dime....but when you fly Drakkhens...standard turns and general flying "feels" better.

The reason is that our helo side slips terribly whilst turning losing almost half its speed. Drakkhens has a nice smooth turning snesations and does not yaw like ours does....giving a gentler turning sensation and offering more turning maneuverability at speed.

ST is tweaking our model...my personal feeling is that if we can find a middle point between these 2 we may have a winning game flight model for it.

Lets see how the new handling turns out and perhaps you can share your thoughts on it again.

[vade_101 0]

Ballistic Addon Studios

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1.1 (5-Nov.-2002)

- handling adjusted to make the LBs less twitchy, better conrnering (the downside is more erratic handling when landing...the LB is now less forgiving if you approach a LZ at an angle or with speed, the AI land fine)

- lower elevation of miniguns reduced from -40degrees to -25 degrees

- passengers on the MH6 and MH6a can now be targetted and hit in flight

**Note: make sure to use the AH6 to clear the area before an insertion!**

- pilot armpatches corrected

- some small texture edits

- These changes pertain to the 1.46 version of the Littlebird:

-remade two problem textures

-beretta proxy removed from pilot

-all pbos repacked with stuffpbo<span id='postcolor'>

Having had a quick play with these, it seems an awful lot easier to fly them with the mouse. thanks guys.

[Stag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tigershark @ Nov. 04 2002,10:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">@Wardog

The decision was made to carry 4 people based on SOP. This was based on several "consultants" on our team that had served with Rangers.

For the record...I was not pleased with the 2 seats in the back of the AH-6 as this was not realistic. ST and I decided to let the community decide on whether they should stay.<span id='postcolor'>

The quality of the work is excellent, as we've come to expect from your team. My reservations are based on a matter of your decisions regarding how certain aspects of the model are implemented. At the end of the day, I can like it, or lump it

Inversely, I believe the rear seats in the back of the AH6 add to the realism. My reasons stem from reading Michael Herr's "Despatches," and "Nam," by Tim Page. In there there are a couple of incidents described during the Tet offensive when the normal rules got kicked out the window, and Huey gunships were used at least as battle taxis. Desperate situations.

Now, as a mission builder, those rear seats are unlikely to be used. but it's nice to know that they're there.

I would say the same for the 5th and 6th seat of the MH6, if they existed. Now I know that some people that think SOP means Smoking Oriental Pot, but where I can, I try to stick to SOP unless I know better. You have your reasons for only putting in four places and I respect that. But using these aircraft to simulate an extreme situation which in real life that could be solved by one littlebird, two will be needed.

Why not substitute with Drakkhen's Bird? Well, because your birds are a set, the flight models are perfectly matched, and getting them to fly in close formation isn't horrendously difficult. For this reason I'll keep using your models. The only real misgiving I have is with the seating arrangements.

I can live with it.

Keep up the good work.

[Sadico 1]

Ok, i've tried the new version, and it works great. This choppers are awesome, very good job! I look forward to your next addons.

[S_Z 0]

I also tried the new version and really like the new handling, great work guys!!

I just have one question… its about the disappearing objects behind the choppers that I asked about earlier in this thread. Is it only me who has this problem? Could someone please answer, if its just me I will reinstall the game and see if it helps.