Hostage situation in moscow ended

[USMC Sniper 0]

The Russian authorities don't want to reveal what kind of gas it is, probably an anaesthetic of some kind.

[foxer 0]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/27/moscow.putin/index.html

Russian deputy interior minister Vladimir Vasilyev admitted a sleep-inducing nerve gas "...

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ Oct. 27 2002,16:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/27/moscow.putin/index.html

Russian deputy interior minister Vladimir Vasilyev admitted a sleep-inducing nerve gas "... <span id='postcolor'>

That doesn't mean anything. All general anesthetics agents are nerve gases. There is no way to shut down the human body completely without going for the central nervous system.

Using general anesthetics is always a risk and I am not surprised that people died of it. The alternative of the terrorist blowing up the building was far worse.

[cpl_BOB 0]

According to the news, the hudred or so hostages died from the GAS, Russia is refusing to say what gas it was leaving the survivers to suffer in hospitals.

ALL but 1 of the dead were killed by the gas!!

[Placebo 29]

What news was saying that? I find that statistic hard to believe.....

[DarkLight 0]

I believe it was a succesful operation, many people have died but even more people were saved. It's sad that so many people didn't make it but if you look at the difficulty of the operation it was a good one after all.

[edc 0]

It is on the news that the chief health examiners or someone like that said that all but on of the 117 or so hostages killed were killed as a resilt of the gas

[Placebo 29]

I should have looked around, Beeb is saying that as well, frankly that's shocking.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2365383.stm

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Almost all the 117 hostages who were killed when Russian troops stormed a Moscow theatre on Saturday died from gas poisoning, it has been admitted.

Only one of those held for three days by Chechen rebels died of gunshot wounds, said Andrei Seltsovsky, chairman of the health committee of the city of Moscow.

<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Nearly 650 of the rescued hostages are still being treated for gas poisoning in hospital. <span id='postcolor'>

[Stag 0]

On our Channel 4 news ten minutes ago, 115 dead by gas, only two actually shot.

[Warin 0]

It's tragic that so many people died because of the gas. Like Denoir said earlier, and I believe to be a fact, any time you knock someone out with an anasthetic gas you run risks.

But at the same time, I dont think we can forget that without the gas, we could be looking at a smoking heap of rubble if the terrorists had managed to detonate their explosives. And then there would be a lot more dead. The Russians made a very hard decision that saved the lives of a lot of people.

The Russians were pretty much in a lose lose situation. Unlike a game of Rainbow 6, where you can just reload and try again until none of the hostages are killed, real life isnt like that.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

That's awful- I wonder what kind of gas was used that so many were killed...

I'm fairly sure that that was what was intended, because if you will examine the pictures of the females with explosives strapped to themselves, they weren't shot.

Quick question: does anyone know if the hostages were held in multiple parts of the building? Like, say some in a theater, others in a different room?

Pure specualtion, but maybe the Russians decided that one of the ares was just too crowded to neutralize safely without the gas, and they decided to just use the gas in that area, and let the chips fall where they may? Because if they used it in every instance, dont you think that we would be looking at 600 dead people?

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 27 2002,21:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's awful- I wonder what kind of gas was used that so many were killed...

I'm fairly sure that that was what was intended, because if you will examine the pictures of the females with explosives strapped to themselves, they weren't shot.

Quick question: does anyone know if the hostages were held in multiple parts of the building? Like, say some in a theater, others in a different room?

Pure specualtion, but maybe the Russians decided that one of the ares was just too crowded to neutralize safely without the gas, and they decided to just use the gas in that area, and let the chips fall where they may? Because if they used it in every instance, dont you think that we would be looking at 600 dead people?<span id='postcolor'>

i doubt that the woman haven't been shot , it's pretty hard to say if they've been actually killed by a bullet actually .. you know , not every wound makes and awfull lot of blood squirting around , and the effect the gas would have had on the terrorists would have been the same on the hostages

afaik , the hostages were held in two parts of the theater : the first story and the theater itself

it's almost impossible to say , every building has its own secrets in matter of areation , gas and fire propagation ... , and i'm sure that in a theater , if the counter fire dispositive isn't on , a gas or a smoke , can propagate every where , including the scene , the lodges and the service rooms

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Heres the thing though- the gas canisters were probably deployed in such a way that the terrorists would have taken the highest dosage, and if this stuff was strong enough to kill hostages that were just nearby, think about the folks who got several lungfulls

[Lazarus_Long 0]

What a mess! I can't believe some of you are calling this operation a success.  The ammount of collateral damage is rediculous.  Granted it could have been worse, but any proffessional anti-terrorist force should have been able to find a much less bloody ending.  Are they still using old KGB methods or something: "Kill 'em all and let god sort them out"?  ...Very unprofessional.

Note to the Russian anti-terrorist guys (alpha whatever):  Run some tests on the supposedly non-lethal gas you intend to use before you unleash it on 800 civilians in a cramped theater.

It's FUBAR, that's all I can say.  

[zverushka 0]

An SAS man on BBC or some other site was interviewed. He said that SAS used different tactics, but with so many people involved in sucha  cramped space, people would inevitably die.

They stormed the building when the terrorists were already shooting hostages. They had no choice but to use what they had.

Lazarus- They saved 500 people. If they hadn't used the gas, then all of them would be dead.

BTW.. Since when do you know the "KGB tactics"?? You just took that out of your ass, so I'll just ignore you. Ignorance is bliss ain't it?

[Lazarus_Long 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lazarus- They saved 500 people. If they hadn't used the gas, then all of them would be dead.

BTW.. Since when do you know the "KGB tactics"?? You just took that out of your ass, so I'll just ignore you. Ignorance is bliss ain't it? <span id='postcolor'>

They "saved 500"...They should have saved all of them if they really knew what they were doing. Do you really think this outcome was the best they could do?

My KGB comments were intended to point out the ruthless tactics involved in this operation and not to quote some official KGB slogan... If I've offended any ex-KGB guys in here... Oh well!

[bn880 5]

Well it seems they may have over done it with the type of gas used. They had to make sure the volume of gas was huge to get to all possible spaces where the hostage takers might be, but the strength or type of gas was probably too much for the weakened people.. that really sucks, but how can you be sure exactly what strength of gas you need when there are explosives around?

Anyway, survivors + explosives not detonated = success here. They were not going to negotiate out of this.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ Oct. 27 2002,16:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They "saved 500"...They should have saved all of them if they really knew what they were doing. Do you really think this outcome was the best they could do?<span id='postcolor'>

This is real life we are ralking about, with explosives!

Yep, it was the best they could do... I just wish they could have executed their plan before the hostages needed support cover. Damn! (I can't really discriminate about the type of gas as I don't know the specific details they were dealing with... it's different in hindsight)

[Satchel 0]

Operation successfull, patient dead... guess that describes best what happened.

116 (63 Men and 53 women) died because of the substance beeing influxed through the ventilation shafts, another 150 are in intensive care unit, 45 of them in critical condition.

Out of the about 800 hostages, 646 are in medical care.

There are currently 3 major speculations about the kind of agent deployed;

BZ or one of it´s relatives. BZ is a banned chemical warfare incapacitating agent because of it´s wildly unpredictable results, which could explain why russian authorities deny information on the agent used.

It basically enters the body by inhalation and interferes with mental processes that control bodily functions, it blocks cholinergic nerve transmission in the central and peripheral nervous system. The main effects of exposure are believed to be: dilated pupils, flushed faces, dry mouth, rapid heart beat (tachycardia), increase in skin and body temperature, spasms, weakness, dizziness, disorientation, visual hallucinations, confusions, loss of time sense, loss of coordination and stupor. According to interfax one of the victims described, as with influxes of the gas one of the chechen terrorists tried to get to the stage to put on a gas mask. The gas attack however produced spasm-like movements on the terrorist, so that he was unable to put the mask and collapsed. To me this sounds like symptons of a chemical warfare agent deployment, as we learned them in the military, then again we don´t know how reliable such reports of victims are.

The second theory is Laughing gas or other similar medical anesthesia agents. It can lead to puking, or at too high of a dosis to collapse of the cardiovascular system, as the respiration phase and bloodcirculation gets interfered.

The third is LSD or other related Hallucinogens.

In effective doses, LSD is not lethal, nor does it have color, odor, or taste. It is capable of rendering whole groups of people, including military forces, indifferent to their surroundings and situations, interfering with planning and judgement, and even creating apprehension, uncontrollable confusion and terror.

Of all substances now known to affect the mind, such as mescaline, harmine and others, LSD is by far the most potent. Very minute quantities (upwards of 30 millionths of a gram) create serious mental confusion and sensual disturbances, or render the mind temporarily susceptible to many types of influences. Administration of the drug produces in an individual such mental characteristics of schizophrenia as visual or auditory hallucinations and physiological reactions of dizziness, nausea, dilation of the pupils, and lachrymation. Data, although still very limited, are available which indicate its usefulness in eliciting true and accurate statements from subjects under its influence during interrogation.

The basic material from which LSD is prepared is ergot and the ex-Soviet Bloc has an abundant supply of it.

I can imagine alot of people suffocated on their own puke, they were in extremly bad physical condition after holding out for 57 hours without nutrition, beeing subject to constant psychological terror, having to defecate virtually near them, together with about 700 other hostages...i do not even want to think about the situation they were in.

These people must have been so weak that most likely many would have died already because of CS gas.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 27 2002,23:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is real life we are ralking about, with explosives!<span id='postcolor'>

and ?

i can assure you that only 1 death in the process of such an operation here in france would cost their job to most of the people involved in the operation

we don't see the HRT people as special paramilitary servicemen for nothing , our speciality is to get everybody out of here alive , including hostage takers or terrorists or whatever you call them

1 death in this job is 1 death too much

every death in the process of such an operation is victim of negligeance

[ran 0]

following satchel's post , i go for the BZ agent

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ Oct. 27 2002,22:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What a mess! I can't believe some of you are calling this operation a success.  The ammount of collateral damage is rediculous.  Granted it could have been worse, but any proffessional anti-terrorist force should have been able to find a much less bloody ending.  Are they still using old KGB methods or something: "Kill 'em all and let god sort them out"?  ...Very unprofessional.

Note to the Russian anti-terrorist guys (alpha whatever):  Run some tests on the supposedly non-lethal gas you intend to use before you unleash it on 800 civilians in a cramped theater.

It's FUBAR, that's all I can say.  <span id='postcolor'>

agreed

[WAR--Bee- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Oct. 28 2002,04:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ Oct. 27 2002,22:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What a mess! I can't believe some of you are calling this operation a success.  The ammount of collateral damage is rediculous.  Granted it could have been worse, but any proffessional anti-terrorist force should have been able to find a much less bloody ending.  Are they still using old KGB methods or something: "Kill 'em all and let god sort them out"?  ...Very unprofessional.

Note to the Russian anti-terrorist guys (alpha whatever):  Run some tests on the supposedly non-lethal gas you intend to use before you unleash it on 800 civilians in a cramped theater.

It's FUBAR, that's all I can say.  <span id='postcolor'>

agreed<span id='postcolor'>

i agree to

thats NOT success

thats lack intelligence

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 27 2002,22:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Heres the thing though- the gas canisters were probably deployed in such a way that the terrorists would have taken the highest dosage, and if this stuff was strong enough to kill hostages that were just nearby, think about the folks who got several lungfulls<span id='postcolor'>

tex , wake up , it's not the magical world of the action movies , aeration conducts are generally not really good as circulation way for HRT people

and about your gas canister speculation :

seeing the effects , i'm sure that there have been big quantities involved , and you can't move a gas bottle that easily and stealthy , how do you want them to put those "gas canisters " (as you call them , but i'm not sure if this is the method that has been used) near the hostage takers ?

and remember that the bad guy , just like us had 2 legs , and guess what we use them for ?

there was no way the gas could have been sprayed in choosen spots near moving human beings

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (zverushka @ Oct. 27 2002,22:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">An SAS man on BBC or some other site was interviewed. He said that SAS used different tactics, but with so many people involved in sucha  cramped space, people would inevitably die.

They stormed the building when the terrorists were already shooting hostages. They had no choice but to use what they had.

Lazarus- They saved 500 people. If they hadn't used the gas, then all of them would be dead.

BTW.. Since when do you know the "KGB tactics"?? You just took that out of your ass, so I'll just ignore you. Ignorance is bliss ain't it?<span id='postcolor'>

KGB tactics are well reputed in the HRT and special operations world ........

this is not an urban legend .......

remember budenovsk and its undetermined death toll